Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguided?

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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cool_name123
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Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguided?

Post #1

Post by cool_name123 »

Is it possible we’ve been tackling this whole thing on homosexuality from the wrong perspective this whole time? One of the most made points I see on this topic goes goes something along the lines of this;

“Well, the biblical authors could not have possibly understood what we now understand today so the way in which they state this must be looked at through enlightened goggles of modernity.�

However, what if that assumption is wrong. What if they were more than aware of what homosexuality is as we currently define it (though perhaps understood through different terminology). What if the biblical authors were well aware of this alternative lifestyle. What if, instead of the point being framed as it is above, a more helpful way to look at the question is;

“Us modern readers are so removed from the context that these texts were written in that we cannot possibly speak to their understanding of being faithful followers of Christ?�

Now obviously, being someone with opinions on what the bible says, I do not believe that sentence to be 100% true... But is it possible that there is more truth in that second sentence than the one I started this thread talking about?


Let me articulate what I mean by bringing up a bit more of a sociological argument than a theological one. And, as always, bear with me here as I tend to use these threads as testing grounds to grapple with and strengthen ideas I’m toying with in my mind. So at the moment this may not be the most fleshed out argument.

The concept I want to bring to mind is that of technique. This often misunderstood sociological idea speaks to the radically new environment that we have found ourselves in within the past century or so. Those who wrote about it were pretty accurate in speculating where we might end up were we not to recognize the dangers associated with technique. But I’m getting off topic here. Essentially technique is best described in the following way;
“The term technique, as I use it, does not mean machines, technology, or this or that procedure for attaining an end. In our technological society, technique is the totality of methods rationally arrived at and having absolute efficiency (for a given stage of development) in every field of human activity. Its characteristics are new; the technique of the present has no common measure with that of the past . . . We are conditioned by something new: technological civilization. I make no reference to a past period of history in which men were allegedly free, happy, and independent. The determinism’s of the past no longer concern us; they are finished and done with.�

Ellul, J. (1964). The Technological Society. New York: Knopf.
Essentially, all this technological innovation has created a shift in how we engage with our reality, and that shift has been towards things like utility and efficiency. So when we speak about what these texts mean we are speaking from a perspective tied with efficiency, and integrally linked with ‘the best way to do the most right thing in this moment’...

Hypothetical example: For whatever reason you find yourself no longer in possession of a phone with no means or desire of acquiring a new one. Do you think you could find a new way of engaging with this world? Or has the notion of efficiency been so ingrained within your being that you’d merely fill that void with something to facilitate the same efficient means (be it email, or facebook or skype or some other hypothetical communication tool)? I certainly don’t think I could, and I think that’s a problem when efficiency dictates our lives instead of whatever that end is for us (I’m going to assume God for the most of us, but lets just keep it nice and generic by saying our relationships)

Now, that being said, what if all this efficiency was not a concern with either the biblical authors or those reading their letters in the early Christian church? What if, instead of efficiency, their concern was simply how to live a Christ like life. When we don’t treat the biblical texts like a manual of efficiency they takes on a whole different connotation because, now, what we are concerned about is merely doing the best we can to exemplify God and not desperately trying to check all the right boxes on our ‘get into heaven’ checklist.

I would suggest that when we read the scriptures in this, much less efficient way, that we begin to see that what all of the biblical authors really saw as important were our relationships. And when read in this way contradictions seem to become less obvious. Sin seems to take on the light of a turning away or a falling short instead of a moral wrong. What leads to broken relationships in one person or one congregation might not in another. What we’re left with is an understanding of morality that is far more grey than we seem to be comfortable with, which is a direct result of our technique influenced brains thriving on efficiency pushing us constantly towards terms of black and white. I’ve quoted this fellow before on this thread, but it’s just such a great quote, so to drive this point of a more relationally understood morality home, here’s Ivan Illich.
“People now tend to understand sin in the light of its "criminalization" by the Church during the Middle Ages and afterwards . . . It was this criminalization which generated the modern idea of conscience as an inward formation by moral rules or norms. It made possible the isolation and anguish which drive the modern individual, and it also obscured the fact that what the New Testament calls sin is not a moral wrong but a turning away or a falling short. Sin, as the New Testament understands it, is something that is revealed only in the light of its possible forgiveness. To believe in sin, therefore, is to celebrate, as a gift beyond full understanding, the fact that one is being forgiven. Contrition is a sweet glorification of the new relationship for which the Samaritan stands, a relationship which is free, and therefore vulnerable and fragile, but always capable of healing, just as nature was then conceived as always in the process of healing.�

Illich, I., & Cayley, D. (2005). The Rivers North of the Future: The Testament of Ivan Illich as told to David Cayley. (pp. 53-54). Toronto: Anansi.

So... Thoughts? Am I crazy, or might we need to reconsider how we treat this time gap argument? Perhaps shifting it from a ‘they couldn’t possibly understand our reality’ point of view to ‘we couldn’t possibly understand theirs’?

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Re: Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguide

Post #11

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 4 by cool_name123]

The why is always important and most cultures throughout history explain the why of something when they can. In fact the bible often explains the why of something.

For example in Genesis YHWH explains why he punishes Adam Eve and the serpent in detail. Most of the commandments in the old testament have the why explained as well.

That is why I say that given the text there is no indication that this culture had a better understanding about sexuality than we do. The lack of a why is indicative that they don't understand male on male sodomy and indiscriminately punished it because of the lack of understanding. We as a species often fear the unknown and the biblical texts are rife with homophobia. That is indicative of ignorance not superior understanding.

This is regardless of how we view the world.

To say that this culture understood sexuality equal to or better than we do is not based on any evidence of any kind. Your whole argument hinges on a worldview outlook. It makes no difference what their worldview is or was compared to ours. There is no evidence to suggest that they had a better understanding of sexuality.

cool_name123
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Re: Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguide

Post #12

Post by cool_name123 »

[Replying to DanieltheDragon]

You're still missing my point. Forget what I said about them understanding sexuality better than us, I already conceded that I may have been using hyperbole there to make a point. I don't care if they understood Sexuality better than us or to what degree they even understood it. What I'm trying to get at is that maybe this was not deemed an important point to them (regardless of how much they did or did not know about sexuality).

Yes, there are many why's in the bible... but they are why's in a much different sense I feel. It's not generally about function or mechanisms, When a why is expressed it is almost always illustrating how ones relationship will suffer. Which is a very different kind of why.

The lack of a why is indicative that they don't understand male on male sodomy and indiscriminately punished it because of the lack of understanding. We as a species often fear the unknown and the biblical texts are rife with homophobia. That is indicative of ignorance not superior understanding.
I would also disagree with the vast majority of this statement and really this is where I'm trying to go with this. Because of how we read the texts, that is what we see... But what if that's not what they saw. I've argued elsewhere in this forum that the Levitical texts condemn idolatry as do Paul's, yet people still can't help but see a commandment as anything more than 'don't do this' without understanding in any way what the authors 'why' might have been. If the 'why' they imply is idolatry, then is it fair to apply that commandment to all expressions of that sexuality? I don't think so. And as I've stated earlier, I think it's our sneaky efficient brains desperately trying to find the 'get into heaven checklist' that is to blame.

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Re: Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguide

Post #13

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 12 by cool_name123]
Because of how we read the texts, that is what we see... But what if that's not what they saw.
That is the thing though, it is very obvious that we will not have their perspective on the text we only have our own. That is not really what matters. We can only go by the information we have available. I say that the bible is rife with homophobia because the people that wrote it wanted gay males to be stoned to death if caught in the act. Whether they saw that as righteous justice or an externalization of something they feared within themselves is neither here nor there. What is important is that they did think it was important enough to include in their holy text.
What I'm trying to get at is that maybe this was not deemed an important point to them
It was important enough to make it a law within their culture. Just like it was at one point to make it a law(punishable with prison time not death) in our not to distant history. There are lots of things that this culture did not care about enough to write down like child abuse for example or banning the slave trade among its culture.

Maybe it wasn't the most important thing but it was still important enough.


Which is a very different kind of why.
No it's not. There are a whole variety of reasons why we do things and still do this day relationships are part of those reasons. We are social creatures to suggest that
"ones relationship" with god, other people, themselves etc. is not a reason why we do things or write things down today is not based on any evidence of any kind but the imaginative speculation of an ideology that tries to compress the whole of the human spectrum into something distilled and packaged for the consumption of an idle mind.

Do you not feel? Do you not have relationships of your own? Do you not see how actions you take can cause those relationships to grow or diminish? I feel you are stuck in some ideology that you can't reason out of. You seem to be shading everything within this ideology. I to am probably doing the same thing(albeit through a different lens of mine own.) and that is probably where this disconnect is coming from.


Perhaps you can expand on why you feel this is important? Maybe the why of this can help illustrate the point you are trying to make. As it remains nebulous within the confines of our limited means of expression.

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Re: Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguide

Post #14

Post by cool_name123 »

[Replying to DanieltheDragon]
DanieltheDragon wrote:That is the thing though, it is very obvious that we will not have their perspective on the text we only have our own. That is not really what matters.
Why doesn’t this matter? If we’re trying to follow the example of Christ wouldn’t, at least, attempting to understand the perspective of those writing about him (even if we don’t get it 100% right) be better than plastering our own assumptions all over it?

DanieltheDragon wrote:I say that the bible is rife with homophobia because the people that wrote it wanted gay males to be stoned to death if caught in the act.
Honestly, I just don’t see this. I mean, I can see how one might... But any study I’ve ever done has lead me to believe something very different.

DanieltheDragon wrote:What is important is that they did think it was important enough to include in their holy text.
I’m not sure if you’re not getting my point, or if you don’t recognize what my point actually is, or if you just don’t see it as important enough to address... And I’m having troubles thinking of how to articulate this any better.

Yes, they placed these things in their texts... But how important was this word over that word? Where did the emphasis lie? When they read it what would be the take away for them.

As an example let’s use either of the Levitical texts on homosexuality.
1 - The placement of these particular commandments implies that it is not part of any sort of laws on sexual morality but is rather categorized along with other forms of ritualistic worship implying that the sin being talked about here is one of idolatry, not one of sexual immorality.
2 - Te’ovah is the word we commonly translate as abomination, more accurately though it is better to think of it as Taboo (still bad, but not a monstrously so). And this word is primarily used when talking about idolatry and shrine prostitution (if memory serves, honestly I find point one far more telling as to the intent here so I use it far more frequently).

What I’m saying here is, yes it is in their texts... But where did they place importance when they read the text? Was it a simple case of ‘if caught sleeping with other’s of the same sex you’re out’? Or would they maybe have payed more attention to the commentary on idolatry that the verse speaks towards and maybe saw it more as a verse warning against what happens when you worship other God’s with your sexuality? Or what happens when you create a distancing in your relationship with God through worshiping other gods before our God? Is it not possible that what we see as reading between the lines they just saw as obvious?

Again, these are legitimate questions, I don't claim to be an OT scholar by any stretch of the imagination. Though I clearly have an opinion here.

DanieltheDragon wrote:It was important enough to make it a law within their culture.
Right, but as I’m attempting to get at above... What did that law actually mean to them?

We know what the more recent law meant to us, this is our culture after all... but it wasn’t theirs and maybe that law had a far different connotation than the ones in our recent memory.

DanieltheDragon wrote:No it's not. There are a whole variety of reasons why we do things and still do this day relationships are part of those reasons. We are social creatures to suggest that
"ones relationship" with god, other people, themselves etc. is not a reason why we do things or write things down today is not based on any evidence of any kind but the imaginative speculation of an ideology that tries to compress the whole of the human spectrum into something distilled and packaged for the consumption of an idle mind.

Do you not feel? Do you not have relationships of your own? Do you not see how actions you take can cause those relationships to grow or diminish?
Based on this rant I really feel like you must have mis-understood what I was saying... As what I was saying is that essentially everything comes down to our relationships... However, scientifically understanding how one functions, that’s a different ‘why’ that we are asking... That is what I was trying to say. Honestly I have no idea how you got to the whole “Do you not have relationships� part of your rant, because right from my OP I have been arguing that what is important is what is revealed to us through our relationships in my understanding of a) how we should engage with scripture and b) how I think the early church would have engaged in scripture.

DanieltheDragon wrote:Perhaps you can expand on why you feel this is important? Maybe the why of this can help illustrate the point you are trying to make. As it remains nebulous within the confines of our limited means of expression.
I’ll do my best as based on your last reply, there must be some serious wires crossed here... The reason I think this is important is because I fear that when we read the texts with this efficient sort of mindset we forget or gloss over how integral relationships and conviviality really were to the biblical authors. We see a loving Christ, but then we look to the apostles and the old testament for this checklist of morality instead of considering that what the biblical authors might have recognized, even way back then, is that morality is a big grey area that we can only really navigate when in relation to each other and God. It’s hard for me to explain and that’s why I’ve tried using quotes and videos of people whom I feel have articulated this all far better than me.

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Re: Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguide

Post #15

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 14 by cool_name123]
But how important was this word over that word? Where did the emphasis lie? When they read it what would be the take away for them.

As an example let’s use either of the Levitical texts on homosexuality.
1 - The placement of these particular commandments implies that it is not part of any sort of laws on sexual morality but is rather categorized along with other forms of ritualistic worship implying that the sin being talked about here is one of idolatry, not one of sexual immorality.
2 - Te’ovah is the word we commonly translate as abomination, more accurately though it is better to think of it as Taboo (still bad, but not a monstrously so). And this word is primarily used when talking about idolatry and shrine prostitution (if memory serves, honestly I find point one far more telling as to the intent here so I use it far more frequently).

What I’m saying here is, yes it is in their texts... But where did they place importance when they read the text? Was it a simple case of ‘if caught sleeping with other’s of the same sex you’re out’?

Well lets start with the highlighted green.

1. There is significant research among biblical scholars, anthropologists, and archaeologists on this subject.

2. Biblical scholars very much focus on this and leverage what is gleamed from archaeology and anthropology on the matters of culture and interpersonal relationships of the ancient world. Peoples lives are literally devoted to understanding these concepts.

To the highlighted red.

I don't see how you can jump to this conclusion Leviticus chapter 20 where verse 13 is located indeed opens up with idolatry and child sacrifice(depending on your translation) as it pertains to verses 1-8. However there is a distinct grammatical shift that one should pay attention to. In 7-8 we end the discussion on Idolatry and shift to the commandments.

Ending the focus on idolatry we have verse 7.

7 “‘Sanctify yourselves therefore and be ye holy, for I am the Lord your God.

Starting the next set of focus is verse 8.

8 “‘And ye shall keep My statutes and do them: I am the Lord who sanctify you.

Then it goes on to the statutes that he wants kept. 1 statute relating to appropriate behavior of a child to parent then 12 statutes related to sexual immorality. Concluding this focus in verse 22.

22 “‘Ye shall therefore keep all My statutes and all My judgments, and do them, that the land whither I bring you to dwell therein spew you not out.

Here is a list of sexual immoral statutes found in this section(punishments highlighted):

10 “‘And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

11 And the man that lieth with his father’s wife hath uncovered his father’s nakedness. Both of them shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.

12 And if a man lie with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death. They have wrought confusion: their blood shall be upon them.

13 “‘If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.

14 “‘And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness. They shall be burned with fire, both he and they, that there be no wickedness among you.

15 “‘And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death; and ye shall slay the beast.

16 And if a woman approach unto any beast and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman and the beast. They shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.

17 “‘And if a man shall take his sister, his father’s daughter or his mother’s daughter, and see her nakedness and she see his nakedness, it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people. He hath uncovered his sister’s nakedness: he shall bear his iniquity.

18 “‘And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness and shall uncover her nakedness, he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood; and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.

19 And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother’s sister nor of thy father’s sister, for he uncovereth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.

20 And if a man shall lie with his uncle’s wife, he hath uncovered his uncle’s nakedness. They shall bear their sin: they shall die childless.

21 And if a man shall take his brother’s wife, it is an unclean thing. He hath uncovered his brother’s nakedness: they shall be childless

_________________________________________________________________

Now if you are asking to yourself why on earth did I just publish that whole list well it was to get to the last part of your quote.

"Was it a simple case of ‘if caught sleeping with other’s of the same sex you’re out’"

If you carefully read the text you can see what is a simple case of your're out whom would be childless those that only had to bear their shame and those that would be put to death. A simple case of getting you thrown out would require you to either sleep with your father's sister or sleep with your wife while she has menstrual pains.

A careful examination of the text can reveal some of the questions you are asking.

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Re: Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguide

Post #16

Post by cool_name123 »

[Replying to DanieltheDragon]

This is not the argument I am trying to have. I am not a biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination. Again, those examples were just, examples, to speak to my primary point of societal influences. I will happily debate this issue of what the texts say elsewhere. But what I am significantly more interested in here/what the entirety of this post has been about is how our particular social context, situated within this technological society affects how we engage in scripture... Which the road you're attempting to lead me down does not seem in any way interested in addressing.

I was never trying to offer a pro-gay interpretation of the texts (though I think a case could be made for one). Just questioning some of the assumptions that both sides bring to the table... Assumptions that I too am guilty of.

If you'd like to speak to that, I'm all ears... But if what you want to speak about whether or not the bible can be seen as pro-gay in some light, or whether that is just ludicrous... let's do that elsewhere. That is not the focus of this post.

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Re: Might some of the biblical Pro-Gay Arguments be Misguide

Post #17

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 16 by cool_name123]
what I am significantly more interested in here/what the entirety of this post has been about is how our particular social context, situated within this technological society affects how we engage in scripture
sure I will grant you that. The same problem exists for every subsequent generation that reads or hears the text(via oral tradition). As society and the context from which we and previous generations live or lived in is fluid and dynamic as water in a river. The authors of the new testament for example lived in a vastly different society than those that wrote Leviticus. The further one of course gets at least on the axis of time from the authorship of said texts the wider the gap in social context grows.

How wide that gap is really depends on the society. I don't think that gap is so wide it is unbridgeable. Like I said the work done in various fields significantly helps us narrow that gap. We probably have are probably closer today(at least among biblical scholars) to what the original authorship was than say in the 1000's to 1900's.

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