The vile men of Sodom were heterosexuals and not gays

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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Davidjayjordan
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The vile men of Sodom were heterosexuals and not gays

Post #1

Post by Davidjayjordan »

Lets debate the condition of Sodom and why the Lord destroyed the whole city. Church people like to say that it was because it was given over to homosexuality, but lets delve deeper into direct 'prophecy' from Ezekiel and others what really happened there.

Usually I would stay away from this topic as it usually gets you kicked out of a forum, but seeing it has been discussed HERE previously without problems, allow me to post, something new, I for one just noticed. The men of Sodom were heterosexuals simply and honestly because the frightened Lot, actually offered them his daughters rather than sending out the angelic men to them. It didn't work, but obviously as a long time citizen of Sodom, Lot figured trying to seduce these vile men away from the angels was worth a shot... as they were heterosexuals.

Look up the verse and verses and do note this ploy by Lot.

And then we shall progress with direct prophecy and other historical texts that show that this vile evil mob at Lots door, was not into sex for pleasure, but was into abusing foreigners and strangers and even killing them. For them, their anal sex was a means of showing their superiority over them and making them submissive to them. This all the Mid East tended to do, when they conquered a foreign army. Strip them and have anal sex with them to punish and abuse and even kill them..

Even seen in our era, as they did this to Gaddafi after his capture, even as he walked back to the jail with his captors.

And so it appears that dirty anal sex was not the sin of Sodom, but the way they treated their neighbors and the way they treated strangers. The Lord said, Love your neighbors and this horrific vile city was killing them when they entered their so called rich and progressive city.

Lets see what the Lord says about Sodom in a direct word for word prophecy in Ezekiel...

Ezekiel
16:49-50 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister SODOM, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her
and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed
abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

*******

True and righteous are your judgments Lord, as pride, fulness of bread, materialism, wealth, idleness, and treating your neighbors like hell, including killing them is a horrible sin.

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Re: The vile men of Sodom were heterosexuals and not gays

Post #2

Post by OpenYourEyes »

Davidjayjordan wrote: Lets debate the condition of Sodom and why the Lord destroyed the whole city. Church people like to say that it was because it was given over to homosexuality, but lets delve deeper into direct 'prophecy' from Ezekiel and others what really happened there.

Usually I would stay away from this topic as it usually gets you kicked out of a forum, but seeing it has been discussed HERE previously without problems, allow me to post, something new, I for one just noticed. The men of Sodom were heterosexuals simply and honestly because the frightened Lot, actually offered them his daughters rather than sending out the angelic men to them. It didn't work, but obviously as a long time citizen of Sodom, Lot figured trying to seduce these vile men away from the angels was worth a shot... as they were heterosexuals.

Look up the verse and verses and do note this ploy by Lot.

And then we shall progress with direct prophecy and other historical texts that show that this vile evil mob at Lots door, was not into sex for pleasure, but was into abusing foreigners and strangers and even killing them. For them, their anal sex was a means of showing their superiority over them and making them submissive to them. This all the Mid East tended to do, when they conquered a foreign army. Strip them and have anal sex with them to punish and abuse and even kill them..

Even seen in our era, as they did this to Gaddafi after his capture, even as he walked back to the jail with his captors.

And so it appears that dirty anal sex was not the sin of Sodom, but the way they treated their neighbors and the way they treated strangers. The Lord said, Love your neighbors and this horrific vile city was killing them when they entered their so called rich and progressive city.

Lets see what the Lord says about Sodom in a direct word for word prophecy in Ezekiel...

Ezekiel
16:49-50 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister SODOM, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her
and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

*******

True and righteous are your judgments Lord, as pride, fulness of bread, materialism, wealth, idleness, and treating your neighbors like hell, including killing them is a horrible sin.
A few points...

- The part of your post i changed to bold red font leaves room for "dirty anal sex" as being part of Sodom's wrongdoing.

- The NT, Jude 1:7, also talks about some of the sins of Sodom and it mentions sexual immorality as being one their sins, and same-sex acts would fit in with that.

- in fact, if inhospitality was seen as a wrong then that was based on Lot's standard and not God's. God's standard does not label inhospitability as sin ,not when it comes to visiting people's house without good manners. Lot's standard was also to offer his daughters up to be raped which certainly was against God's standard. So there were 2 different moral standards at play here, but the one from God is what really matters in terms of being right or good. And we see the attempt of rape and sodomy being what prompted the angels to act.

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Post #3

Post by Davidjayjordan »

You missed your other response from SCIENCE AND RELIGION but I shall repost it afterwards.. if thats OK

As for the supposed dirty anal sex suggestion you have made, I somewhat agree with you... but dirty feces sex, or anal sex is hardly the same degree of sinfulness as abuse and killing strangers. Killing is much much much worse.

Anal Sex is Dirty


Sex is good and from God, but that does not mean that there are not sexual sins, as obviously there are. And
although sex is clean and unto the pure all things are pure, physically there is some sex, that is unclean because
of unclean physical conditions, lack of physical cleanliness of the participants, or the method of sex used. For
although some may not like it being said, I personally think ‘anal sex’ is dirty and unclean. and not of the
Lord.

To put it simply, the anus just wasn’t meant to be used for sex in my opinion. It was made for excretion
and waste removal and not for sex. No amount of cleansing or washing can make it clean, and even if forced
open, sexual activity can cause medical problems with the sphincters, etc. It just isn't worth the risk in my
opinion.

But this isn’t an anti-gay remark as anal sex can be done by lesbians, and bi’s and even heterosexuals
as well. It can span all classifications, and therefore anal sex can be harmful to ones health whether male or
female. it isn't gender specific.

And yet having said this, I don’t consider, it the unforgivable sin as the church sometimes does. Why,
because if it is done in private among consenting adults, it may only be a private personal choice. It might not
be the greatest choice, but they and they only are responsible and they only affected. Some people may just be
inclined that way, sadly to say. And I for one can't condemn them for a private personal decision. It's not my
or our business, in my opinion.

Anal sex is hardly an unforgivable sin, for the unforgivable sin has nothing to do with sex. Rejecting Jesus
and His Love and His Messiah ship, is the only unforgivable sin I know of, and that’s only if people have
been given chance after chance and still reject His Love and Sacrifice. But what kind of sex we engage in, is
hardly the determining factor, and hardly unforgivable. It might not be recommended, and it might be terribly
harmful to their health, but if they choose this in private, that’s their choice. I mean, 'which of us is
without sin' We are all sinners, and believe it or not, none of us can say we have stopped sinning in 'every
which way'. So surely we can accept them as Christians outside their bedrooms, whether they are male,
female, bi, gay, lesbian, or whatever. (SEE Can Gays be Saved ?)

For again who among us are squeaky clean. …None ! For even if we are clean physically, which among us
is absolutely clean spiritually.... NONE . Therefore, in my opinion we are all under Grace and only standing by
the Grace of God from our Common Savior. And we better be humble about our status rather than proud and
condescending to others. I mean all churches have sinners. And all churches have people that continue sinning
to some degree or even larger degrees in the heterosexual churches.

So anal sex in my opinion isn't the greatest, whether hetero or gay or bi. And seeing we have the freedom to
so many other clean ways of having sex, why do we need to use one that is potennially very dangerous to our
health and well being.

In My Opinion Only

David Jay Jordan

From http://www.davidjayjordan.com/AnalSexisDirty.html


Yet I for one am not going to run around and blast every heterosexual male and every lesbian female that has anal sex with women, or engaged couples that are forced to have only anal sex to keep the finance still a virgin.

Just not my thing to accuse others of what is done for pleasure or love.

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Post #4

Post by Davidjayjordan »

Judes writing surely do not have the same clarity as direct RED LETTER PROPHECY, THUS SAITH THE LORD WORDS as in Ezekiel......

Neither were Pauls words written encathedral......
but returning tEzekiel's direct prophecy do note that it says distinctly they were

neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

For as a missionary almost all of my life, when people hurt the poor and the needy they do get judged and usually it is very very quickly, not always but usually.

A scary thing to hurt the young, the poor and the needy or strangers !!!

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Post #5

Post by Davidjayjordan »

Lets look for further confirmations... in another book of the Lord.

The Sins of Sodom according to Jasher

Almost the whole basis for anti-gay atitudes among Christians is their belief that the Lord judged Sodom for its homosexual
activites But Ezekiel never mentioned sex as their sin at all but rather the way they treated strangers and the poor.. Ezekiel
16:49-50 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister SODOM, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her
and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed
abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. So can we argue with the prophet of God, Ezekiel ? Was he
mistaken when he was so exact and precise when declaring the 'Sin of Sodom' ? For in Revelation again, no mention of sexuality is
given, only that the Anti-Christ masses would not bury the two strangers, who were always coming into their anti-god kingdom and
prophesying against them. Revelation 11:8-9 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, (Jerusalem) which
spiritually is called SODOM and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and
tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in
graves. (SEE Two End Time Prophets).

But when you read the Biblical Book of Jasher which is mentioned in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1: 18, it goes into much more
detail that makes it clear that the Sins of Sodom were not merely sexual in nature, but went to the sins of their selfish proud hearts..
The Book of Jasher agreeing with Ezekiel and reinforcing what the Lord has always demanded of His people ... that they take care of
strangers and the poor. But read it for yourself and answer the question yourself, straight from the scriptures in Jasher ...
http://earth-history.com/Pseudepigrapha ... her-19.htm

25 And a poor man came into the city (of Sodom) to seek maintenance, and he remained in the city some days, and all
the people of Sodom caused a proclamation of their custom not to give this man a morsel of bread to eat, until he dropped
dead upon the earth, and they did so 26 And Paltith the daughter of Lot saw this man lying in the streets starved with
hunger, and no one would give him any thing to keep him alive, and he was just upon the point of death.27 And her soul
was filled with pity on account of the man, and she fed him secretly with bread for many days, and the soul of this man was
revived.

28 For when she went forth to fetch water she would put the bread in the water pitcher, and when she came to the place
where the poor man was, she took the bread from the pitcher and gave it him to eat; so she did many days. 29 And all the
people of Sodom and Gomorrah wondered how this man could bear starvation for so many days. 30 And they said to each
other, This can only be that he eats and drinks, for no man can bear starvation for so many days or live as this man has,
without even his countenance changing; and three men concealed themselves in a place where the poor man was
stationed, to know who it was that brought him bread to eat.

31 And Paltith daughter of Lot went forth that day to fetch water, and she put bread into her pitcher of water, and she
went to draw water by the poor man's place, and she took out the bread from the pitcher and gave it to the poor man and he
ate it. 32 And the three men saw what Paltith did to the poor man, and they said to her, It is thou then who hast supported
him, and therefore has he not starved, nor changed in appearance nor died like the rest.

33 And the three men went out of the place in which they were concealed, and they seized Paltith and the bread which
was in the poor man's hand. 34 And they took Paltith and brought her before their judges, and they said to them, Thus did
she do, and it is she who supplied the poor man with bread, therefore did he not die all this time; now therefore declare to
us the punishment due to this woman for having transgressed our law. 35 And the people of Sodom and Gomorrah
assembled and kindled a fire in the street of the city, and they took the woman and cast her into the fire and she was
burned to ashes.

36 And in the city of Admah there was a woman to whom they did the like. 37 For a traveler came into the city of Admah
to abide there all night, with the intention of going home in the morning, and he sat opposite the door of the house of the
young woman's father, to remain there, as the sun had set when be had reached that place; and the young woman saw him
sitting by the door of the house. 38 And he asked her for a drink of water and she said to him, Who art thou? and he said to
her, I was this day going on the road, and reached here when the sun set, so I will abide here all night, and in the morning
I will arise early and continue my journey.

39 And the young woman went into the house and fetched the man bread and water to eat and drink. 40 And this affair
became known to the people of Admah, and they assembled and brought the young woman before the judges, that they
should judge her for this act.

41 And the judge said, The judgment of death must pass upon this woman because she transgressed our law, and this
therefore is the decision concerning her. 42 And the people of those cities assembled and brought out the young woman,
and anointed her with honey from head to foot, as the judge had decreed, and they placed her before a swarm of bees
which were then in their hives, and the bees flew upon her and stung her that her whole body was swelled. 43 And the
young woman cried out on account of the bees, but no one took notice of her or pitied her, and her cries ascended to
heaven 44 And the Lord was provoked at this and at all the works of the cities of Sodom, for they had abundance of food,
and had tranquility amongst them, and still would not sustain the poor and the needy, and in those days their evil doings
and sins became great before the Lord.

45 And the Lord sent for two of the angels that had come to Abraham's house, to destroy Sodom and its cities. 46 And the
angels rose up from the door of Abraham's tent, after they had eaten and drunk, and they reached Sodom in the evening,
and Lot was then sitting in the gate of Sodom, and when he saw them he rose to meet them, and he bowed down to the
ground. 47 And he pressed them greatly and brought them into his house, and he gave them victuals which they ate, and
they abode all night in his house.

48 And the angels said to Lot, Arise, go forth from this place, thou and all belonging to thee, lest thou be consumed in the
iniquity of this city, for the Lord will destroy this place. 49 And the angels laid hold upon the hand of Lot and upon the
hand of his wife, and upon the hands of his children, and all belonging to him, and they brought him forth and set him
without the cities. 50 And they said to Lot, Escape for thy life, and he fled and all belonging to him.

51 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah and upon all these cities brimstone and fire from the Lord out
of heaven. 52 And he overthrew these cities, all the plain and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon
the ground; and Ado the wife of Lot looked back to see the destruction of the cities, for her compassion was moved on
account of her daughters who remained in Sodom, for they did not go with her. 53 And when she looked back she became a
pillar of salt, and it is yet in that.

So even though sexual humiliation through anal sex might have been part of the mistreatment of strangers, the true judgment against
the people of Sodom and their neighboring cities was in my opinion their pride, wealth, selfishness and hatred for strangers. What's
your opinion and what's your atitude towards strangers and the poor ? A lot depends on our answers !!

Love in Jesus and others .................. David

From http://www.davidjayjordan.com/SinofSodom.html

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Post #6

Post by Davidjayjordan »

Confirmations of the Sin of Sodom

Thanks to JRichards for the following research and confirmations that the Sin of Sodom was not because of their sexuality but
because of their lack of hospitality and their trickery in trying to ensalve their guests... JR posted the following

The following is referring to the Sins of Sodom, (from the Book of Wisdom also called the Book of Solomon)

Wisdom 19:
13 And the punishments came upon the sinners only after forewarnings from the violence of the thunderbolts. For
they justly suffered for their own misdeeds, since indeed they treated their guests with the more grievous hatred.
14 For those others did not receive unfamiliar visitors, but these were enslaving beneficent guests.
15 And not that only; but what punishment was to be theirs since they received strangers unwillingly!
16 Yet these, after welcoming them with festivities, oppressed with awful toils those who now shared with them the
same rights. (From http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom19.htm#v22 )

Think of Lot as an immigrant with his green card and the strangers as illegal aliens with an immigration service that was VERY
forceful. Desert dwellers were used to the idea that they could find shelter with anyone and not be refused. The laws of
hospitality were quite strict. Coming into a town where you needed papers approved by the local authorities just to be there
was a concept completely foreign to them. I imagine this was used to enrich Sodom at the expense of people who just couldn't
get their minds around the concept.

The Sin of Sodom concerning the breaking the hospitality rules. Once you took someone in and broke bread with them (if you
read the story you will see where this happened), you MUST protect them at all costs -- even your own life or the lives of your
family. That was the rule of hospitality. No matter what. No matter how much they abused that hospitality.

Lot was in the minds of the Sodomites harboring illegal aliens. It was the issue of breaking the hospitality rules Once you took
someone in and broke bread with them (if you read the story you will see where this happened), you MUST protect them at all
costs -- even your own life or the lives of your family. No matter how much they abused that hospitality. The crowd was trying
to make Lot break that law -- and THAT attempt was more a sin than anything else associated with the story.

It was this passage (from the Book of Solomon contained in the NAB Bible) that got me thinking of the point of strangers
being taken by force as slaves. That requires overwhelming force, which fits the story well, and also ALL of them get a benefit
from the slaves' labors over a prolonged period of time, while it would be a physical impossibility for them to all get a benefit
from rape -- there were just too many people involved. So going after the strangers as slaves, and Lot offering his daughters as
slaves in their place (properly following the strict laws of hospitality) all fits together quite well.

JRichards

SEE His website for more details at http://rainbowallianceopenfaith.homeste ... eLink.html

Thanks JR ..... DJJ

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Re: The vile men of Sodom were heterosexuals and not gays

Post #7

Post by Hamsaka »

OpenYourEyes wrote:
Davidjayjordan wrote: Lets debate the condition of Sodom and why the Lord destroyed the whole city. Church people like to say that it was because it was given over to homosexuality, but lets delve deeper into direct 'prophecy' from Ezekiel and others what really happened there.

Usually I would stay away from this topic as it usually gets you kicked out of a forum, but seeing it has been discussed HERE previously without problems, allow me to post, something new, I for one just noticed. The men of Sodom were heterosexuals simply and honestly because the frightened Lot, actually offered them his daughters rather than sending out the angelic men to them. It didn't work, but obviously as a long time citizen of Sodom, Lot figured trying to seduce these vile men away from the angels was worth a shot... as they were heterosexuals.

Look up the verse and verses and do note this ploy by Lot.

And then we shall progress with direct prophecy and other historical texts that show that this vile evil mob at Lots door, was not into sex for pleasure, but was into abusing foreigners and strangers and even killing them. For them, their anal sex was a means of showing their superiority over them and making them submissive to them. This all the Mid East tended to do, when they conquered a foreign army. Strip them and have anal sex with them to punish and abuse and even kill them..

Even seen in our era, as they did this to Gaddafi after his capture, even as he walked back to the jail with his captors.

And so it appears that dirty anal sex was not the sin of Sodom, but the way they treated their neighbors and the way they treated strangers. The Lord said, Love your neighbors and this horrific vile city was killing them when they entered their so called rich and progressive city.

Lets see what the Lord says about Sodom in a direct word for word prophecy in Ezekiel...

Ezekiel
16:49-50 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister SODOM, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her
and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

*******

True and righteous are your judgments Lord, as pride, fulness of bread, materialism, wealth, idleness, and treating your neighbors like hell, including killing them is a horrible sin.
A few points...

- The part of your post i changed to bold red font leaves room for "dirty anal sex" as being part of Sodom's wrongdoing.

- The NT, Jude 1:7, also talks about some of the sins of Sodom and it mentions sexual immorality as being one their sins, and same-sex acts would fit in with that.

- in fact, if inhospitality was seen as a wrong then that was based on Lot's standard and not God's. God's standard does not label inhospitability as sin ,not when it comes to visiting people's house without good manners. Lot's standard was also to offer his daughters up to be raped which certainly was against God's standard. So there were 2 different moral standards at play here, but the one from God is what really matters in terms of being right or good. And we see the attempt of rape and sodomy being what prompted the angels to act.
Does the Bible refer specifically to same-sex sexual activity when listing Sodom's sins?

I see two instances where you opine same-sex sexual activity fit within the general 'immorality', but not that it was specifically mentioned in the scriptures.

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Post #8

Post by Davidjayjordan »

Or you can consider the great possibility that these heterosexual macho men of Sodom were out for a good punishing time, and thought it would be great fun, to anally abuse these foreign strangers from a different land.

Do consider researching how the armies of the past, stripped their captured armies and committed anal sex on them to debase them.... same as they did to Gadafhi.

Sex for pleasure or love is greatly different in motivation than sex for punishment and debasing... in my opinion

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Post #9

Post by bluethread »

Davidjayjordan wrote: Or you can consider the great possibility that these heterosexual macho men of Sodom were out for a good punishing time, and thought it would be great fun, to anally abuse these foreign strangers from a different land.

Do consider researching how the armies of the past, stripped their captured armies and committed anal sex on them to debase them.... same as they did to Gadafhi.

Sex for pleasure or love is greatly different in motivation than sex for punishment and debasing... in my opinion
So, your premise on this thread is that only heterosexuals engage in rape?

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Post #10

Post by Davidjayjordan »

bluethread wrote:
Davidjayjordan wrote: Or you can consider the great possibility that these heterosexual macho men of Sodom were out for a good punishing time, and thought it would be great fun, to anally abuse these foreign strangers from a different land.

Do consider researching how the armies of the past, stripped their captured armies and committed anal sex on them to debase them.... same as they did to Gadafhi.

Sex for pleasure or love is greatly different in motivation than sex for punishment and debasing... in my opinion
So, your premise on this thread is that only heterosexuals engage in rape?
No that is not my premise at all, please study Sets, and SET THEORY which is SET LAW and which is the basis for LOGIC.

But the men at Lots door were definitely heterosexuals as Lot tried to seduce them away from abusing the men quests into abusing his own daughters.

Obviously Lot was in very bad shape, morally and every other way.

Rape and anal punishment can be done by any even women can do it to women or to men via probes of pain....

I hate pain and hate torture and hate mistreatment of others. The Lord does to...IMO

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