Can God condemn to Hell based solely off gay rights support?

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jgh7

Can God condemn to Hell based solely off gay rights support?

Post #1

Post by jgh7 »

I fully support gay equal rights, namely in that I fully support that they should be allowed to marry.

It is based out of my own belief that they can love each other just the same as heterosexuals can, and that I care about their well-being and fair treatment just the same as I care about heterosexuals.

Christians, answer me this: Can God condemn me to Hell solely for this? I am deliberately going against Him and I know it and choose to do it.

My excuse is that I was acting out of love for my fellow man. Is that a good enough excuse?

If it is a good enough excuse, then I feel no guilt, shame, or worry whatsoever in going against God and pursuing that gays be treated equally.

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rikuoamero
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Re: Can God condemn to Hell based solely off gay rights supp

Post #11

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 9 by onewithhim]
Thrusting an erect penis into the rectum, even after using a lubricant, can devastate the cellular layer, opening enough tears to allow easy passage of a virus in ejaculated semen to enter the blood stream." It goes on, but I think you can see from what I've quoted here that the body was not designed to have penises in the rectum. It's painful, it's damaging, and the action can facilitate the transmission of diseases. Is God really cruel for prohibiting that practice? It looks to me like He is looking out for the health and well-fare of people.
Two questions
1) What does this have to do with gay marriage?
2) Are you aware that virii can be transmitted between heterosexual partners? If you want to be consistent, you would have to be campaigning against heterosexual marriage because heterosexual partners may damage each other's private areas and transmit a virus.
You are suggesting that God is not loving, that he's not fair.
In modern society, those who are married enjoy certain rights. A man who is married to a woman in hospital has the right to visit her, or to inherit her estate, for instance.
If a government does not recognise homosexual marriage, a homosexual couple can cohabit for decades but not be allowed to visit each other in hospital, or have inheritances challenged.
Surely, an all knowing and all loving God would realise that demanding heterosexual marriage only would harm these homosexuals.
I believe that God has made laws and principles for us to follow, and they are for our own well-being.
What about those of us who do not believe as you do? Should your religious beliefs trump the freedom of homosexuals to marry those whom they love?
Think about the shoe on the other foot. Imagine living in a society that had homosexual marriages only, where heterosexual marriages were illegal, and people said that these laws and principles were for our own well being. Imagine not being allowed to marry the man you love.
Whatever his reasons, it is vital that we respect his commands. Why not try to understand his point of view?
So you don't even care about the reasons. If you don't know the reasons, how can you or anyone else understand his 'point of view'?
To act out of love for your fellow man,
What about my two fellow men over there, who are in love with each other?
you should really be trying to help your fellow man to see God's view on things and warn your fellow man that they are in an extremely precarious position if they ignore Him.
We don't see it as God's view. We see it as the views of mortal men trumped up in divine clothing.
I, nor my fellow JWs, do not hate gays.
Telling someone they can't and shouldn't be having sex with someone they love and who loves them (as long as they're adults, of course)...is pretty hateful, from where I'm standing.
Would it make sense to you if I said "Onewithhim shouldn't have sex with her husband. Oh no, I don't hate heterosexuals, just so you know"?
We just know that the Bible says that practicing homosexuals will not inherit God's Kingdom.
You do realise, I hope, that the Bible is just a book (or volume of books) that says a lot of things?
There are some gays who choose to be celebate, and this is fine with God. Whatever negative tendencies a person might have, if they control them, God is pleased.
From where I'm standing, this calling homosexuality 'negative' looks completely arbitrary.
Homosexual activity is not natural.
Be careful about calling something natural. Natural means, it occurs in nature. There are plenty of examples of homosexuality occurring in nature. I've seen it happen with dogs (I once saw a doggy threesome as a child...boy did that surprise me!)
It goes against what the body was designed for. A Discover magazine from 1985 (you wouldn't find an article like this today because of weakened morals and political correctness), has an article about Aids and transmission of the disease.
Maybe because the data in it is woefully out of date? Should I, when teaching someone about evolution, cite only Darwin's On the Origin of Species and completely ignore everything discovered about genetics and DNA?
Do you not see how ridiculous you sound by saying you're wilfully citing an article 31 years out of date that talks about science?
Do you know what else that article says? It says that " “Heterosexuals are virtually risk free,�" which isn't true. In fact, it wasn't until a year later at the International AIDS Conference in Paris that heterosexual transmission of AIDS was recognised.
See what I mean by deliberately looking at out of date information?

So...when are you going to campaign against heterosexual marriage?
Is God really cruel for prohibiting that practice? It looks to me like He is looking out for the health and well-fare of people.
Answer me this then. Why would God put a prostate gland that gives pleasure when stimulated via anal sex if he designs the human body such that having anal sex is so dangerous? Why not have no prostate or have it not be able to stimulated or have it somewhere else?
You said that gays should be able to love whomever they wish, but why would you say that it should stop there?
There has to be a mutual attraction, and we supporters of homosexual marriage tend to frown on bestiality.
Just because a person has unnatural tendencies---toward whatever---and he says loudly that he should have the right to "love" that sheep or dog or whatever, then he should have that right?
Notice what you're leaving out here. The sheep or dog supposedly saying back "I want to love him too". That is because they can't.
With two humans though, they can say that.
It's not written anywhere that people MUST have sex, anyway. We are not animals. We can control our urges if we so wish. I commend the people that have desires toward the same sex for NOT following through on it.
Then I look forward to your declaration that you as a heterosexual who has the ability to transmit virii via intercourse that you are now celibate.
Or is it one rule for me, and one rule for thee?
So...is God mean?
The God in your holy book comes across the meanest entity I have ever heard about.
I see Him as caring about our physical and mental health.
Yeah, it's awesome not being able to have sex with the man I love, and not having our marriage recognised by the state, not being able to visit him in the hospital when he's sick, not inheriting from him when he dies, among other things. That does wonders for my physical and mental health. Why, I'm sure the stress of not being allowed to visit him won't wreak havoc with my body.
He designed things a certain way, and to go against what is natural is asking for trouble,
So why are you wearing clothes then? I am not aware of any other species that wears the furs or skins of other animals.
Having said that, no one has a right to harm a person because they are gay, and gays should not be treated as less of a human being.
Then allow them to marry.
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Re: Can God condemn to Hell based solely off gay rights supp

Post #12

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 11 by rikuoamero]

I am inclined to agree with much of what you say. I would add, however, some points about biblical laws. There are, in point of actual fact, many biblical laws which believers reject and for good reason. If you followed the OT to the letter, you couldn't eat pork or shellfish. Certainly, you couldn't have any kind of tattoo. In addition, it would be OK for you the have slaves, and beat them, just don't kill them (Exod.21). Also, it would be OK for you to sell your daughter into slavery. Matter of fact, the OT sanctification of slavery was a major rationale Jeff Davis and the Old South gave for their insistence on slavery. In the NT, these OT laws are thrown out the window. That's why Christ says, "You have heard it said, but I say unto you," or "Moses said, but I say unto you." Christ's basic message is that we are to do with a loving and liberating, period. Paul, of course, came down hard on homosexuality. But Paul was very much caught up in the legalism of Judaism, which he sought to overcome, but never really did.

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Re: Can God condemn to Hell based solely off gay rights supp

Post #13

Post by Talishi »

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 11 by rikuoamero]Also, it would be OK for you to sell your daughter into slavery. Matter of fact, the OT sanctification of slavery was a major rationale Jeff Davis and the Old South gave for their insistence on slavery. In the NT, these OT laws are thrown out the window.
Not so. Paul tells slaves to obey their masters, and he affirms the death penalties specified in the OT.

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
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Re: Can God condemn to Hell based solely off gay rights supp

Post #14

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 13 by Talishi]

Yes, true. However, I was speaking of Christ, not Paul. Great as he was, I don't think Paul was able to dump his Jewish legalism enough to fully grasp the teachings of Christ.

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Re: Can God condemn to Hell based solely off gay rights supp

Post #15

Post by Talishi »

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 13 by Talishi]

Yes, true. However, I was speaking of Christ, not Paul. Great as he was, I don't think Paul was able to dump his Jewish legalism enough to fully grasp the teachings of Christ.
That's a remarkable statement. Most scholars would say it was Jesus who was the legalist (jots and tittles, do the commandments to enter into eternal life) and Paul the apostate Jew (whosoever of you are justified by the law ye are fallen from grace).
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Re: Can God condemn to Hell based solely off gay rights supp

Post #16

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 15 by Talishi]

Sorry, but you are way, way off about scholars here. Believe me. I know. I don't mean to brag or pull rank, but I have a legit Ph.D. in theology.

From the NT evidence, it would appear Paul and what is called the Jerusalem cult were locked into a conflict. Peter and others, the Jerusalem cult, seem to have been insisting that you had to follow all the Jewish laws in order to be Christian. Paul challenged that, taking his message to the gentiles.

Christ continually challenges the Mosaic laws. "You have heard it said, but I say unto you..." "Moses said, but I say unto you..." See Matt. 5, for example.

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Re: Can God condemn to Hell based solely off gay rights supp

Post #17

Post by Talishi »

hoghead1 wrote: Christ continually challenges the Mosaic laws. "You have heard it said, but I say unto you..." "Moses said, but I say unto you..." See Matt. 5, for example.
Christ challenged the human encrustations that appeared around the Code of Moshe, the handwashings and such. Exodus 34 says do not boil a kid in its mother's milk, but today observant Jews will not so much as eat a cheeseburger. When Jesus challenged "eye for eye" he actually made it more stringent, and condemned the anger that led to matters getting to the point where an eye was put out. He said lust was essentially adultery because all sins begin as an idea before they are carried out. But he consistently upheld the commandments of God as necessary for eternal life and said they would persist until the end of history.

Paul seemed to think (Romans 10:9) that salvation was simply a matter of confessing Jesus as "Lord, Lord" and mentally assenting that he was raised from the dead.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
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Re: Can God condemn to Hell based solely off gay rights supp

Post #18

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 17 by Talishi]

It is true that in Ephesians 2, Paul says that Christ came to annul the law (2:15). However, Paul makes it plain that doesn't mean anything goes. In Ephesians 4, he lays down some definite rules for Christian conduct. This is also true in the Pastorals, though some question their Pauline authorship.

I also find it clear in Matt. 5 (especially vs. 38 onward) that Christ is challenging the older Mosaic codes, completely challenging them.

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Re: Can God condemn to Hell based solely off gay rights supp

Post #19

Post by Talishi »

hoghead1 wrote: I also find it clear in Matt. 5 (especially vs. 38 onward) that Christ is challenging the older Mosaic codes, completely challenging them.
In 5:28 Christ makes lust equivalent to adultery, which hardly challenges the law on adultery. In v. 38, the eye for eye thing, the law follows the code of Hammurabi. Jesus makes it even more restrictive and says do not even be angry with your brother to the point where you start poking eyes out. He's making the law even harder to follow.
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Re: Can God condemn to Hell based solely off gay rights supp

Post #20

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 19 by Talishi]

No, sorry, but that is not what's happening. Christ is saying forgive them, don't go after vengeance or some form of retribution. Hnece, we are to love our enemies and not seek an eye for an eye. Christ's message is that we should do what is loving. If the law seems to be promoting love, fine. If not, forget it.

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