Sex outside of marriage

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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puddleglum
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Sex outside of marriage

Post #1

Post by puddleglum »

There have been several threads on this subforum about whether sex outside of marriage is permissible. There is a Biblical teaching that is often overlooked in discussing this subject.

First look at the first teaching on marriage:

Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
(Genesis 2:24 ESV)


Then look at how Paul interprets this verse:

Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.�
(1 Corinthians 6:16 ESV)


It is the sexual act that creates the marriage relationship. When a man and woman engage is sex without being married to each other they become one in God's sight. If either of them engages in sex with another person he is guilty of adultery. That is why a couple can't first live together to see if marriage is right for them. They incur all the responsibilities of marriage the first time they have sex and if they find they aren't compatible it is too late to do anything about it.
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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #2

Post by Yahu »

puddleglum wrote:If either of them engages in sex with another person he is guilty of adultery.
Sorry but the modern day definition of adultery and the Hebrew definition is NOT the same. For example, it was adultery for an man to have sex with a virgin that was engaged to another man.

It isn't about the sexual union or the marriage ceremony but the covenant agreement. The agreement to marry is the covenant and begins the marriage. This is why Marry wasn't stoned when she turned up pregnant. Everyone assumed it was Joseph's child which was lawful.

Adultery had NOTHING to do with the marital status of a man. It was whether a woman was already in covenant with another man. A married man that got sexually involved with another woman was the act of taking a concubine (or additional wife) and was NOT adultery.

Becoming one with a harlot was becoming one with everyone else she had sexual contact with. It is a spiritual sharing, a means for spirits to pass from one individual to another and a harlot is in communion with demonic spirits according to Proverbs.

It is inadvisable to get sexually involved with a woman with multiple partners. Women were never allowed multiple partners but men could. It also had a practical root. A man can impregnate multiple women and there is no question about who is responsable for the children. When there is a child from a woman with multiple male partners, who is responsible? What man would want to be responsible for the child of a woman like that?

Polygamy was allowed by scripture but never was a woman allowed to have multiple partners.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #3

Post by OnceConvinced »

puddleglum wrote:
It is the sexual act that creates the marriage relationship. When a man and woman engage is sex without being married to each other they become one in God's sight.

That is what I came to believe later in my Christian walk. After all Adam and Eve for instance would have not had any wedding ceremony or anything like that. So it makes sense.
puddleglum wrote:
If either of them engages in sex with another person he is guilty of adultery.
So there is no such thing as pre-marital sex. The only sin can be adultery.

puddleglum wrote:
That is why a couple can't first live together to see if marriage is right for them. They incur all the responsibilities of marriage the first time they have sex and if they find they aren't compatible it is too late to do anything about it.

The problem is there is no way for anyone to truly get to know each other first in this situation. It means that whenever you have sex you are forced to take a huge gamble and remain with them, never having sex with anyone else. Too bad if she ends up being sexually incompatible!

It's just not realistic in reality. That's why I now have to reject the whole idea that having sex = marriage. It just goes against our human nature to have to be committed sexually to one person and one person only. If we are going to commit ourselves to one person our entire life, we should surely explore everything about that person, otherwise we could be putting ourselves into a miserable relationship with no hope of any other unless we want to commit adultery.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #4

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 3 by OnceConvinced]

There is no evidence that sex before marriage is even a good test or even a suitable test at all that helps identify a suitable partner.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #5

Post by Yahu »

The modern day definition of Fornication is not the Hebrew definition of the word either.

Most modern day Christians see fornication as any pre-marital sexual contact but the Hebrew definition of the word is 'unlawful sexual intercourse'. It was any full sexual intercourse that was specifically forbidden so adultery is a subset of fornication.

You have to go to the law to specifically find out what forms of intercourse were specifically forbidden to define what constituted fornication. Pre-marital sex was never forbidden. Sex with your betrothed was allowed. Sex with another man's betrothed was forbidden. Sex with a slave was allowed. Sex with a non betrothed virgin was allowed BUT the man MUST marry her and pay her father a fine for not getting the betrothal agreement first. Rape was forbidden. Sex with a non-virgin, non-betrothed woman was allowed. It was called taking a concubine. Sex with a ritual prostitute in the pagan sexual worship was forbidden. Sex with a close relative was forbidden by the time of Moses. Earlier then that it was common practice to marry a close relative. It was forbidden when the gene pool was narrowed to prevent to much inbreeding. Homosexuality was forbidden.

A man could have multiple wives and concubines while a woman was forbidden having more than 1 sexual partner.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #6

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 3 by OnceConvinced]
The problem is there is no way for anyone to truly get to know each other first in this situation. It means that whenever you have sex you are forced to take a huge gamble and remain with them, never having sex with anyone else. Too bad if she ends up being sexually incompatible!
There are other threads that have answered this point. If the purpose was really to test the relationship then sex would not be one of the best ways. It mostly provides a false positive because even bad sex between consenting partners is still good.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #7

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 4 by Yahu]

Well Jesus says
Matthew 5:27-28New International Version (NIV)

Adultery
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[a] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
If one grants that lust comes before sex (and if you end up having to argue that point I'm fine with that) then adultery has been committed.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #8

Post by Yahu »

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 4 by Yahu]

Well Jesus says
Matthew 5:27-28New International Version (NIV)

Adultery
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[a] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
If one grants that lust comes before sex (and if you end up having to argue that point I'm fine with that) then adultery has been committed.
I think you are confusing desire with lust. I can see a desirable married woman without lusting after her. I wouldn't even consider pursuing a married woman. I have been on the other end of that. My wife was the most beautiful woman I ever met. She had men stalking her because of her beauty. There are men that will be in prison for the rest of their lives for the things they did to sabotage our marriage just so they could have their turn with her. When we first started courting/dating, we had men following us on all our dates. It turned out there was a sign up list at the base gym for who got to date her next and I wasn't on their list. Some of them even sabotaged a military aircraft to strand my wife on a TDY deployment so they could drug her with a date rape drug. They were convicted of treason on top of the drug and rape charges. All because they LUSTED after my wife.

That is what it means to look at a woman with lust in your heart. Lust is desire on steroids with a drive to do evil to fulfill that desire.

Lust has no place in a marriage. A wife is desired, not lusted after.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

puddleglum wrote: It is the sexual act that creates the marriage relationship. When a man and woman engage is sex without being married to each other they become one in God's sight.
And how then do two concenting adults commit FORNICATION? The bible says to "flee from fornication"... what would that be?
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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #10

Post by Yahu »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
puddleglum wrote: It is the sexual act that creates the marriage relationship. When a man and woman engage is sex without being married to each other they become one in God's sight.
And how then do two concenting adults commit FORNICATION? The bible says to "flee from fornication"... what would that be?
Fornication is by definition 'unlawful sexual intercourse'. To be unlawful, you have to go to the Torah and see what was unlawful. Fornication doesn't mean pre-marital sex but illegal sex and pre-marital sex is never made unlawful by the Law. Pre-marital sex is just taking a concubine which is lawful as long as the woman isn't a virgin or another man's wife or betrothed, or a close relative.

Marry wasn't stoned for turning up pregnant. Everyone assumed it was Joseph's child which was lawful since they were already in covenant. The marriage ceremony is the strengthen the covenant. It is not the covenant itself. The agreement to marry, the betrothal is the covenant. The wedding feast is the celebration of the covenant.

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