Sex outside of marriage

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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puddleglum
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Sex outside of marriage

Post #1

Post by puddleglum »

There have been several threads on this subforum about whether sex outside of marriage is permissible. There is a Biblical teaching that is often overlooked in discussing this subject.

First look at the first teaching on marriage:

Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
(Genesis 2:24 ESV)


Then look at how Paul interprets this verse:

Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.�
(1 Corinthians 6:16 ESV)


It is the sexual act that creates the marriage relationship. When a man and woman engage is sex without being married to each other they become one in God's sight. If either of them engages in sex with another person he is guilty of adultery. That is why a couple can't first live together to see if marriage is right for them. They incur all the responsibilities of marriage the first time they have sex and if they find they aren't compatible it is too late to do anything about it.
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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #21

Post by Wootah »

Yahu wrote:
Wootah wrote: The first two links say lust is OK within marriage.

Eg: Lusting after your spouse is not just allowed, it is expected. - See more at: http://www.the-generous-husband.com/201 ... you/#.dpuf
Obviously they don't understand the difference between lust and desire. Lust is always evil. Desire is what you have for a wife. Lust is a strong desire for something wrong. Lust for riches is greed.

Lust is taking desire to evil extremes to drive you to do evil. It is lust that drives men to rape, not desire. You can desire an attractive women without being driven to rape or fantasies of rape.

Lust is about satisfying your own needs while desire for a wife also includes wanting to satisfy her needs out of love for her.
OK so it's clear you don't like the word lust. But let's be clear you think one can desire multiple wives?
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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #22

Post by Yahu »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Yahu wrote:
Fornication is by definition 'unlawful sexual intercourse'. To be unlawful, you have to go to the Torah and see what was unlawful.
So unlawful sex (fornication) is having sex with ....??

(I'm sorry your answer wasn't very clear, it outlined a lot of things that it IS NOT. So can you clarify please what it IS... ? Can two concenting, committed, non-attached adults commit "fornication"? )
Yes. If the act is done as part of the pagan sexual worship for example or if it is just casual sex for the sake of satisfying lust. You see, the pagan sexual worship was all about just satisfying sexual needs with whomever. IMO you can commit fornication with a wife. It is a matter of motives, not whether you have a marriage ceremony in the past.

Within the confines of a legal relationship and done out of love for each other is what is important by my understanding. A biblically legal relationship has nothing to do with a ceremony. It has to do with avoiding what is forbidden.

Generally when the Hebrew word for fornication is used in scripture it is either a reference to a girl having multiple partners, being a ritual prostitute in the pagan worship or when used spiritually about being fornication against Yah by the worship of other gods. It is closely associated with the pagan practices of having random sex with strangers or being/using a whore.

Even though by our society, a man taking on a mistress is considered both fornication and adultery, biblically it is neither.

Fornication for a woman is being the sexual partner of multiple individuals or being a whore. The practice to 'have fun' before you settle down to marry is an example of that. Generally, women married very young back then anyway. They didn't have much opportunity for sexual activity before being betrothed.

Men on the other hand didn't marry young. They were allowed sexual relationships as long as they were responsible, they didn't partake in the pagan sexual worship or visit a whore or steal what belonged to another man, ie his wife or betrothed. Rape is a form of fornication that carried a death penalty. Destroying a girl's virginity without marrying her (before or after) is fornication. That only carried a fine, not a death penalty. Men were forbidden to force women to have multiple partners by taking her virginity and not marrying her. Partaking in the pagan sexual worship carried a death penalty as well. It was not only fornication in the physical sense but fornication in the spiritual sense as well.

Yes, the ideal situation is for two virgins to marry. What if a woman has been raped in the past? Is she guilty? Could she enter into a sexual relationship to secure a husband? Yes. It was not fornication.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #23

Post by wiploc »

puddleglum wrote: ...
Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
(Genesis 2:24 ESV)


Then look at how Paul interprets this verse:

Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.�
(1 Corinthians 6:16 ESV)


It is the sexual act that creates the marriage relationship. ...
That's a fallacy. I think it's called "affirming the consequent."

Here's a valid argument:

P1: If A then B.
P2: A.
C: Therefore, B.

Here's affirming the consequent:

P1: If A then B.
P2: B.
C: Therefore, A.

(Somebody please correct me if I've got the name of that fallacy wrong.)

It's true that if you marry a woman you will (presumably) make with her the beast with two backs, but that's not at all the same as saying that if you and a woman make the beast with two backs then you are married.

If you own a car, you'll put gas in it. It does not follow that if you put gas in a car you own it.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #24

Post by Yahu »

Wootah wrote:
OK so it's clear you don't like the word lust. But let's be clear you think one can desire multiple wives?
Yes I do but it is NOT the ideal situation. In the NT, having more than one wife would exclude someone from being in church leadership for example. That is the only reference I know of that would be contrary to polygamy and only excludes from a position of leadership in a congregation. In the OT, only those of the high priesthood were limited to only one wife and forbidden concubines.

Of course it is far harder to have a peaceful family life with multiple wives which is one of the other requirements for a position of leadership according to Paul. Granted, even having a rebellious teenage child would also disqualify someone from church leadership as well.

Personally, I think this country would be better off allowing polygamy verses gay marriage.

Jacob was a polygamist with 2 wives and 2 concubines. Yes, it can cause rivalry between wives as well as rivalry between sons of wives verses sons of concubines as it did for Jacob so IMO it is not the IDEAL situation but was allowed under Yah's law.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #25

Post by Yahu »

Wootah wrote: OK so it's clear you don't like the word lust.
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

If lust conceived brings forth sin, how can there be lust in a marriage when sexual desire within a marriage is not sin? For it to even be lust, the end result must be sin when that lust is acted upon. You don't lust for your wife but you can lust for another man's wife because to carry out that lust would be sin.

Lust has to be a desire for something forbidden by Yah. It is a desire to do something evil. It isn't that I don't like the word lust. I don't like people misunderstanding the definition of the word an applying it incorrectly.

Desire and lust are not interchangeable. Lust can be for money or power or sex but something unlawful to bring it about is required.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #26

Post by ttruscott »

puddleglum wrote: There have been several threads on this subforum about whether sex outside of marriage is permissible. There is a Biblical teaching that is often overlooked in discussing this subject.

First look at the first teaching on marriage:

Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
(Genesis 2:24 ESV)


Then look at how Paul interprets this verse:

Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.�
(1 Corinthians 6:16 ESV)


It is the sexual act that creates the marriage relationship. When a man and woman engage is sex without being married to each other they become one in God's sight. If either of them engages in sex with another person he is guilty of adultery. That is why a couple can't first live together to see if marriage is right for them. They incur all the responsibilities of marriage the first time they have sex and if they find they aren't compatible it is too late to do anything about it.
Marriage and sex on earth are symbolic of our marriage to GOD and our Unity with HIM. `Echad, the Unity of GOD is the same `echad of the unity of sex. Therefore any sexual union outside of marriage on earth is a symbol for and treated by GOD as culpable worship of false gods and idols. Adultery is not just the crime, it is proof of the crime of idolatry, Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. and as such confounds the claim to salvation by the adulterers as a man cannot serve two masters, both the ONE who is GOD and a demonic idol, at the same time.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #27

Post by Yahu »

ttruscott wrote:
Marriage and sex on earth are symbolic of our marriage to GOD and our Unity with HIM. `Echad, the Unity of GOD is the same `echad of the unity of sex. Therefore any sexual union outside of marriage on earth is a symbol for and treated by GOD as culpable worship of false gods and idols. Adultery is not just the crime, it is proof of the crime of idolatry, Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. and as such confounds the claim to salvation by the adulterers as a man cannot serve two masters, both the ONE who is GOD and a demonic idol, at the same time.
That verse also distinguishes between desire and 'evil desire', which is tied with 'sexual immorality' and impurity. It does not forbid 'godly desire' or 'sexual morality'.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #28

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Can two concenting, committed, non-attached adults having straight on sex without the incorporation of pagain sex worship commit "fornication"?

My understanding is you are also saying a man having sex with a virgin before marriage is not fornicating (as long as he doesn't lust after her or involve any pagan sex worship).


JEHOVAHS WITNESS



NOTE: Jehovah's Witnesses believe sex should be restricted to sex between two legally married individuals of the opposite sex.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #29

Post by Yahu »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Can two concenting, committed, non-attached adults having straight on sex without the incorporation of pagain sex worship commit "fornication"?

My understanding is you are also saying a man having sex with a virgin before marriage is not fornicating (as long as he doesn't lust after her or involve any pagan sex worship).

JEHOVAHS WITNESS

NOTE: Jehovah's Witnesses believe sex should be restricted to sex between two legally married individuals of the opposite sex.
It isn't fornication IF they marry. It is an offense against her father for not having the marriage agreement prior to taking her virginity which required the man pay the father a fine. Fornication was punishable by death, not a fine!

If there is already a marriage agreement, there isn't any offense at all.

IF they refuse to marry afterwards, it is fornication because it is a violation of Yah's sexual law which is the definition of fornication in the Hebrew.

What JW believe and what the actual Mosaic law states is totally different. JW and many other Christians apply religious traditions that are NOT actually in the law. The very fact that a group adds to the actual law makes them guilty of phariseeism. Attacking people that don't follow that same religious tradition is the very thing that got Yeshua crucified and why Yeshua called the pharisees a nest of vipers and children of their father the devil. Yah doesn't require us to follow religious/social traditions.

You don't add to Yah's law! That is a MAJOR sin in itself. So my suggestion is to repent of following JW religious traditions. Legal marriage in our society has nothing to do with Yah's law. It is a social and legal condition of our society for taxing status and legal benefits. Those benefits are what the whole 'gay marriage' issue is about.

Yah's laws are about what is actually illegal sexual activity. What is not forbidden is allowed. That doesn't make it necessarily wise. It may be wise to limit sexual activity to a single legal wife but not doing so is not sin.

Our society totally ignores the fact that a man is not limited to a single wife but to wives and concubines permitted under Yah's law. Our social and religious traditions are more concerned about what we perceive as FAIRNESS.

If JW doctrine allows a woman to remarry after divorce for example, that is a direct violation of Yah's law. Remarrage while her first husband still lives is forbidden by Yah's law and it is considered adultery. In contrast, a man can divorce a wife and remarry. Religious and social traditions are not in accordance with Yah's actual law but more concerned with fairness not lawfulness.

It is ideal for two virgins to marry and stay together for life. Is it sin to not follow the ideal situation? No, not unless an actual law is violated.

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Re: Sex outside of marriage

Post #30

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Yahu wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Can two concenting, committed, non-attached adults having straight on sex without the incorporation of pagain sex worship commit "fornication"?

My understanding is you are also saying a man having sex with a virgin before marriage is not fornicating (as long as he doesn't lust after her or involve any pagan sex worship).

JEHOVAHS WITNESS

NOTE: Jehovah's Witnesses believe sex should be restricted to sex between two legally married individuals of the opposite sex.
It isn't fornication IF they marry. .

It that a "yes" or a "no" to my question?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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