homosexuality is NOT a sin

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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icetiger300
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homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #1

Post by icetiger300 »

Hello, homosexuality and same sex marriage is not condemned and here's why.

These are not 100% accurate translations of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, they've been taken them out of their Scriptural and cultural context.

So, let"s put them back, and have a look"

Because they are basically repeating, I will just deal with the non murderous verse Leviticus 18:22.

That chapter starts off with God telling Moses to tell the Israelites to "not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices."

It then goes on listing many various incestual restrictions, and then it tells not to have sex with a woman when she is having her period, then it tells not to have sex with your neighbors wife.

Then it takes a completely different turn, and tells not to give any of your children to be sacrificed to the Pagan god Molek.

After that, the restrictions of a mankind with mankind and sex with animals come in.

The reason for that is because back then in the culture God was referring to, the Pagans would start off their fertility ritual with a child sacrifice. What would follow was an orgy, where the women, but most of all the men, would have sex with anything and anybody. But they were very careful to do it in a way that would not impregnate anyone, that was only for the woman they were married to. So, they would have sex with animals and anal sex with Galli priests, and temple prostitutes.

They fully believed that what they were doing pleased their gods and goddesses. They believed that it would bring all forms of fertility to them and their land, but they were not homosexuals sexuality expressing their love and attraction for one another, the vast majority of them were not even homosexuals.

However, if you chose to ignore all of that, it is a fact that those two verses were only referring to men, and that means they could not refer to any and all homosexual sex for any reason.

One must factor in the cultural and Scriptural context. The Jews of that time, and in that culture did not know that a woman had a egg. They thought the the man's seed was like the seed of a plant, and the woman was (Like an incubator) just to be implanted with their seed. They also held increasing their numbers to the utmost importance. There are a few reasons for that, but the most crucial, was because they wanted to make their religion more dominant.

So, their reasons were based on their biological ignorance, and for the most part selfishness.

Given their belief they viewed any use of a man's seed other than for the attempt at procreation to be anything from uncleanliness, all the way up to murder.

Given this, it's not surprising that that would have an issue with a man having sex for any reason other than to procreate. However, if you take all of that into consideration, and the fact that they were coming into contact with cultures that embraced things like pederasty, and Pagan fertility orgies. It would be no surprise to see a lot of parts in the Old Testament (Torah) that strictly forbade men having any kind of sex other than sex to procreate.

But, in fact there are only 2 out of 23,145 verses in the Old Testament (Torah) that some state have to do with it directly forbidding men having sex with men. And, as I have pointed out, it is clearly backed up by the Scriptural and cultural context, that it was not any and all homosexual sex that was being condemned.

It is paganism.

I forgot to add this regarding Leviticus chapter 20...

If the focus of that murderous chapter was not surrounding Pagan idolatry, why would it start off with this?...

(Leviticus 20:1-5)

The Lord said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites: "Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek.A279;

With Romans:26-28 it is actually right there in the context of the scriptures that Paul was not referring to homosexuals. I think you would agree that just because someone engages in homosexual sex does not mean they are a hoimosexual.

Here is the context...

"Because of this, God gave them over"

Because of what? Here is what...

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God"s invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator"who is forever praised. Amen.

Now that is not Paul reffering to homosexuals, those people were Pagans engaging in idolatrous sex orgies.

Again...

The reason for that is because back then in the culture Paul was referring to, the Pagans would occasionally start off their fertility ritual with a child sacrifice. What would follow was an orgy, where the women, but most of all the men, would have sex with anything and anybody. But they were very careful to do it in a way that would not impregnate anyone, that was only for the woman they were married to. So, they would have sex with animals and anal sex with Galli priests, and temple prostitutes.

They fully believed that what they were doing pleased their gods and goddesses. They believed that it would bring all forms of fertility to them and their land, but they were not homosexuals sexuality expressing their love and attraction for one another, the vast majority of them were not even homosexuals.

The fact is that there was never any Greek or Hebrew words that were used in refrance to homosexuality used anywhere in the Scriptures, and there were words that would have left to question as to what the writer was reffering to. It is humans that have been equating aspects of Paganism with homosexuality, not the writers of the Scriptures or God. This is nothing new, things like this have been going on for as long as the Scriptures have existed.


Oh yeah. about "Sodom and Gomorrah".

Why is it that some of you have equated an angry mob threatening to gang rape some strangers in their city with homosexuality? Are you aware of the fact that not one Jew/Hebrew/Israelite in almost 4000 years ever taught that? They have always taught that the people of "Sodom" treated strangers and the needy sadistically at times, there are horrible stories regarding this in their teachings. Are you also aware of the fact that there is not one living Biblical Scholar that believes that homosexuality was the reason for their destruction? Even the Scriptures where Jesus and God describe the reasons, it was not due to homosexuality.

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus Christ condemns specific towns which reject His disciples to the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Matthew 10:14 "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."

Matthew 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

These passages from Jesus show that hospitality was seen as a quality of righteousness in the ancient world.

Any city that proved inhospitable, was condemned to the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of the plain indeed treated visitors with cruelty, brutality, and viciousness.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 is a unique passage in that God Himself talks of the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

This passage confirms the above allegations concerning Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of the plain were "overfed", indicating a wealth and abundance of food and resources.

They were "unconcerned", as Isaiah and Jeremiah both pointed to their arrogance, and "haughty and did detestable things", demonstrated in their treatment of the young girls and their treatment of God's angels.

They also refused to help the needy and the poor, an indication of the selfishness of the people.

If it would not have been for the intercession of the angels, Lot might have been counted amongst the Sodomites victims. And, the Angles would have most likely been killed.

I hope that clears up your confusion, and that you stop spreading lies and distortions that have caused nothing but harm and death to multi-millions of God's children and in His name worst of all.

Correct if I'm wrong christians.

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #11

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 10 by bluethread]

So you don't eat shell fish or ham? On slavery, read Exod. 21. The Bible had no trouble with Lot offering out his daughters as prostitutes.

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #12

Post by marco »

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 6 by marco]

There is not doubt about it that the Bible condemns and sanctifies many practices in a way we would find abhorrent today, such as its sanctification of slavery in Exod. 21 and the fact it OK's Lot handing out his daughters as prostitutes for the men to do with whatever they want. It also condemns all homosexual behavior. The latter was probably a way the ancient Israelites had of marking themselves off from other cultures, which were tolerant of homosexuality, especially the Greeks.
I completely agree. What I therefore deduce is that the injunctions and actions attributed to Yahweh are sprung from the motives of these old nomads. Consequently, if one disregards some statements it seems right to dismiss the rest. Where they hit on truths can be credited to the laws of chance.

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Post #13

Post by bluethread »

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 10 by bluethread]

So you don't eat shell fish or ham? On slavery, read Exod. 21. The Bible had no trouble with Lot offering out his daughters as prostitutes.
That is correct, I do not eat shellfish and pork. Ham refers to the back of the thigh on any animal, but has come to be identified with pork. It has also been associated with a cooking process. So, a beef or turkey "ham" is just fine. Now, the book of Genesis is mythological history, not that the events did not happen, they just can not be verified. When one looks at history, there are two options, accuracy and advocacy. Generally, advocacy is directly stated and events stated without comment are considered to be more concerned with accuracy. For example, when the newspaper reports a murder without comment, that does not mean that the newspaper approves of the killing.

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Post #14

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to bluethread]

Lev. 11: 7-8 and Deut. 14:8 specifically forbid eating anything of the pig.

You neglected to comment on Exod. 21, which does in fact sanctify slavery.

If you are trying to argue that the Bible really frowned upon Lot handing over his daughters, but was just reporting objectively and so didn't criticize him, , forget it. That won't work. The account is in the business of passing judgment. It condemns the men as wicked. It condones Lot as one who sought to prevent their wickedness. So the Bible is sanctifying his actions in sending out his daughters as prostitutes for teh men to do with whatever they like. The sin here isn't anything sexual; the sin here is a lack of hospitality toward strangers.

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #15

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 1 by icetiger300]
Correct if I'm wrong christians.
You are wrong. On three counts as I see it. First, it is clear Scripture condemns homosexual acts. Second, that we can know the immorality of homosexual acts even without Scripture, which in actuality is why it is condemned in Scripture. And third, you are also wrong in thinking condemning same sex relations is what has caused many children of God to be hurt. It’s not always easy to hear, but Truth will set you free. I would submit not standing up for this truth is hurtful.

Is it immoral for man to have sex with a willing animal? Is it immoral for a father to have sex with his consenting adult 30 year old daughter? Man can know via reason, logic, and observation of the world what is right/good. We need only acknowledge form, function, shape, science, biology, man, and man’s relationship with the world he lives in.

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #16

Post by marco »

RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 1 by icetiger300]
Correct if I'm wrong christians.


Is it immoral for man to have sex with a willing animal? Is it immoral for a father to have sex with his consenting adult 30 year old daughter?
You seem to think the answers are axiomatically true. The ancient Egyptian royal family regarded incest as more than morally correct. And with whom do you suppose that Cain, son of Adam and his rib-formed spouse, had relations? We would all seem to be the offspring of incest, engineered by Yahweh. How else?

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #17

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to marco]

You seem to think your suggestion that homosexual acts are moral is true. Then you turn around and criticizing me for believing truth exists and is something that can be known. So which is it? Can we know truth?

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #18

Post by marco »

RightReason wrote: [Replying to marco]

You seem to think your suggestion that homosexual acts are moral is true. Then you turn around and criticizing me for believing truth exists and is something that can be known. So which is it? Can we know truth?
If I say a zebra isn't black it doesn't mean I am arguing it is white.

I pointed out what the morality of ancient Egypt's royalty was and I indicated that, at some point among people who were in direct communication with God, incest was the norm. I cannot see how these facts undermine any truth.

In any case, questions about the rightness or wrongness of deeds require judgment in which there are various conclusions. My discussing this does not remotely indicate any judgment of mine.

Have a happy and healthy 2018 - et pax tecum!

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #19

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 18 by marco]
You seem to think your suggestion that homosexual acts are moral is true. Then you turn around and criticizing me for believing truth exists and is something that can be known. So which is it? Can we know truth?
If I say a zebra isn't black it doesn't mean I am arguing it is white.
No, but suggesting what you say is true and what I say isn’t true because when you believe something is true it IS, but when I believe something is true I am guilty of thinking something is automatically true.

IOW, it is an automatic/obvious truth that zebras are black, but it is wrong to declare the automatic/obvious truth that a zebra is white.
I pointed out what the morality of ancient Egypt's royalty was and I indicated that, at some point among people who were in direct communication with God, incest was the norm. I cannot see how these facts undermine any truth.
First, you took one part of a point I was making. I also used the example of human beings having sex with animals as immoral – making the point we can know right/wrong/good/bad based on man and his relationship with this world. It isn’t some arbitrary rule to say, “I declare humans shouldn’t have sex with animals�. It also isn’t some arbitrary rule to say a father shouldn’t have sexual relations with his children. Based on observation of the world, we can acknowledge this truth.
In any case, questions about the rightness or wrongness of deeds require judgment in which there are various conclusions.
Yes, in the sense morality is not arbitrary, rather something that can be automatically discovered and acknowledged. Perhaps I was mistaken, but I took your original comments to mean there is no automatic -- to which I would disagree.
My discussing this does not remotely indicate any judgment of mine.
I disagree. You and many like you proclaim with quite confidence those who see homosexual acts as immoral are wrong with a defense of – there is no automatic truth – but such is self contradicting. You and they first must believe right and wrong exist in order to suggest what I think is right/wrong is wrong. So, yes, I would say you joining the discussion and your remarks do indicate a judgment.
Have a happy and healthy 2018 - et pax tecum!
You too!

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #20

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RightReason wrote:
Yes, in the sense morality is not arbitrary, rather something that can be automatically discovered and acknowledged. Perhaps I was mistaken, but I took your original comments to mean there is no automatic -- to which I would disagree.
There is a convention to which we strictly adhere. Ham being cursed for seeing his drunken father naked gives rise to a prudery inherited from Bible reading. Limitations are set according to country and custom. It really has nothing to do with truth. That we strongly disapprove or find some things revolting is not a measure of truth.

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