homosexuality is NOT a sin

Debating issues regarding sexuality

Moderator: Moderators

icetiger300
Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:55 pm

homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #1

Post by icetiger300 »

Hello, homosexuality and same sex marriage is not condemned and here's why.

These are not 100% accurate translations of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, they've been taken them out of their Scriptural and cultural context.

So, let"s put them back, and have a look"

Because they are basically repeating, I will just deal with the non murderous verse Leviticus 18:22.

That chapter starts off with God telling Moses to tell the Israelites to "not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices."

It then goes on listing many various incestual restrictions, and then it tells not to have sex with a woman when she is having her period, then it tells not to have sex with your neighbors wife.

Then it takes a completely different turn, and tells not to give any of your children to be sacrificed to the Pagan god Molek.

After that, the restrictions of a mankind with mankind and sex with animals come in.

The reason for that is because back then in the culture God was referring to, the Pagans would start off their fertility ritual with a child sacrifice. What would follow was an orgy, where the women, but most of all the men, would have sex with anything and anybody. But they were very careful to do it in a way that would not impregnate anyone, that was only for the woman they were married to. So, they would have sex with animals and anal sex with Galli priests, and temple prostitutes.

They fully believed that what they were doing pleased their gods and goddesses. They believed that it would bring all forms of fertility to them and their land, but they were not homosexuals sexuality expressing their love and attraction for one another, the vast majority of them were not even homosexuals.

However, if you chose to ignore all of that, it is a fact that those two verses were only referring to men, and that means they could not refer to any and all homosexual sex for any reason.

One must factor in the cultural and Scriptural context. The Jews of that time, and in that culture did not know that a woman had a egg. They thought the the man's seed was like the seed of a plant, and the woman was (Like an incubator) just to be implanted with their seed. They also held increasing their numbers to the utmost importance. There are a few reasons for that, but the most crucial, was because they wanted to make their religion more dominant.

So, their reasons were based on their biological ignorance, and for the most part selfishness.

Given their belief they viewed any use of a man's seed other than for the attempt at procreation to be anything from uncleanliness, all the way up to murder.

Given this, it's not surprising that that would have an issue with a man having sex for any reason other than to procreate. However, if you take all of that into consideration, and the fact that they were coming into contact with cultures that embraced things like pederasty, and Pagan fertility orgies. It would be no surprise to see a lot of parts in the Old Testament (Torah) that strictly forbade men having any kind of sex other than sex to procreate.

But, in fact there are only 2 out of 23,145 verses in the Old Testament (Torah) that some state have to do with it directly forbidding men having sex with men. And, as I have pointed out, it is clearly backed up by the Scriptural and cultural context, that it was not any and all homosexual sex that was being condemned.

It is paganism.

I forgot to add this regarding Leviticus chapter 20...

If the focus of that murderous chapter was not surrounding Pagan idolatry, why would it start off with this?...

(Leviticus 20:1-5)

The Lord said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites: "Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek.A279;

With Romans:26-28 it is actually right there in the context of the scriptures that Paul was not referring to homosexuals. I think you would agree that just because someone engages in homosexual sex does not mean they are a hoimosexual.

Here is the context...

"Because of this, God gave them over"

Because of what? Here is what...

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God"s invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator"who is forever praised. Amen.

Now that is not Paul reffering to homosexuals, those people were Pagans engaging in idolatrous sex orgies.

Again...

The reason for that is because back then in the culture Paul was referring to, the Pagans would occasionally start off their fertility ritual with a child sacrifice. What would follow was an orgy, where the women, but most of all the men, would have sex with anything and anybody. But they were very careful to do it in a way that would not impregnate anyone, that was only for the woman they were married to. So, they would have sex with animals and anal sex with Galli priests, and temple prostitutes.

They fully believed that what they were doing pleased their gods and goddesses. They believed that it would bring all forms of fertility to them and their land, but they were not homosexuals sexuality expressing their love and attraction for one another, the vast majority of them were not even homosexuals.

The fact is that there was never any Greek or Hebrew words that were used in refrance to homosexuality used anywhere in the Scriptures, and there were words that would have left to question as to what the writer was reffering to. It is humans that have been equating aspects of Paganism with homosexuality, not the writers of the Scriptures or God. This is nothing new, things like this have been going on for as long as the Scriptures have existed.


Oh yeah. about "Sodom and Gomorrah".

Why is it that some of you have equated an angry mob threatening to gang rape some strangers in their city with homosexuality? Are you aware of the fact that not one Jew/Hebrew/Israelite in almost 4000 years ever taught that? They have always taught that the people of "Sodom" treated strangers and the needy sadistically at times, there are horrible stories regarding this in their teachings. Are you also aware of the fact that there is not one living Biblical Scholar that believes that homosexuality was the reason for their destruction? Even the Scriptures where Jesus and God describe the reasons, it was not due to homosexuality.

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus Christ condemns specific towns which reject His disciples to the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Matthew 10:14 "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."

Matthew 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

These passages from Jesus show that hospitality was seen as a quality of righteousness in the ancient world.

Any city that proved inhospitable, was condemned to the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of the plain indeed treated visitors with cruelty, brutality, and viciousness.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 is a unique passage in that God Himself talks of the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

This passage confirms the above allegations concerning Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of the plain were "overfed", indicating a wealth and abundance of food and resources.

They were "unconcerned", as Isaiah and Jeremiah both pointed to their arrogance, and "haughty and did detestable things", demonstrated in their treatment of the young girls and their treatment of God's angels.

They also refused to help the needy and the poor, an indication of the selfishness of the people.

If it would not have been for the intercession of the angels, Lot might have been counted amongst the Sodomites victims. And, the Angles would have most likely been killed.

I hope that clears up your confusion, and that you stop spreading lies and distortions that have caused nothing but harm and death to multi-millions of God's children and in His name worst of all.

Correct if I'm wrong christians.

User avatar
Talishi
Guru
Posts: 1156
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:31 pm
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #2

Post by Talishi »

icetiger300 wrote: Ezekiel 16:49-50 is a unique passage in that God Himself talks of the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
That only goes to show that revisionist history started early. Ben Carson thought the pyramids were built by Joseph to store grain.

JLB32168

Post #3

Post by JLB32168 »

Just to clarify, the LXX version of this passage is:
49 Moreover this was the sin of thy sister Sodom, pride: she and her daughters lived in pleasure, in fullness of bread in abundance: this belonged to her and her daughters, and they helped not the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they boasted, and wrought iniquities before me: so I cut them off as I saw.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18094
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 433 times
Been thanked: 661 times
Contact:

Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by icetiger300]

It is for Christians because the Christian bible says God condemns "men who lie (have sexual intercourse) with men" and women who turn to women for sexual pleasure.

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Talishi
Guru
Posts: 1156
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:31 pm
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Post #5

Post by Talishi »

JLB32168 wrote: Just to clarify, the LXX version of this passage is:
49 Moreover this was the sin of thy sister Sodom, pride: she and her daughters lived in pleasure, in fullness of bread in abundance: this belonged to her and her daughters, and they helped not the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they boasted, and wrought iniquities before me: so I cut them off as I saw.
Conservatives say the Founding Fathers were all born again Evangelical Christians who wanted low taxes, no background checks at gun shows, that and Sodom was about man on man sex.

Liberals say the Founding Fathers envisioned America as a constellation of communes that threw their coffee grounds in the compost pile and shared copies of UTNE Reader that said Sodom was focused on greed.

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #6

Post by marco »

icetiger300 wrote:

I hope that clears up your confusion, and that you stop spreading lies and distortions that have caused nothing but harm and death to multi-millions of God's children and in His name worst of all.
You make a brave case but there are those who read the OT and the Koran who will still want to kill homosexuals. The sequence where Lot disgustingly offers his daughters to be raped is hardly a verse one would want to defend in any sense.

Paul, to me, seems clear in his condemnation in his message to the Romans:

King James Bible
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

I disagree with all these condemnations and think it was horrendous that Wilde and Turing suffered because of biblical prudery. But why deny it exists in the Bible?

hoghead1
Guru
Posts: 2011
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:02 pm

Post #7

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to Talishi]

True, some conservatives do claim the Founding Fathers were all good Evangelical Christians. But that is far from the truth. Read Madison and Adams and also Jefferson. Madison and Adams loudly denounced Christianity as a religion of fear and superstition. Same with Jefferson, who believed that Paul was a corruptor of Christ's teachings. he also came up with his own Bible. he went through the KJV, systematically cutting out all passages he thought were mere myth and superstition, all the miracles, virgin birth, etc. What he was left with was a Bible a mere 48 pages long. It was issued in the 1890's. It is sometimes nicknamed the Bible of Congress and is still issued to congressmen every other year. Read the Treaty of Tripoli. It starts out, "As the United States is not founded on the principles of teh Christian religion..."

hoghead1
Guru
Posts: 2011
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:02 pm

Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #8

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 6 by marco]

There is not doubt about it that the Bible condemns and sanctifies many practices in a way we would find abhorrent today, such as its sanctification of slavery in Exod. 21 and the fact it OK's Lot handing out his daughters as prostitutes for the men to do with whatever they want. It also condemns all homosexual behavior. The latter was probably a way the ancient Israelites had of marking themselves off from other cultures, which were tolerant of homosexuality, especially the Greeks.

hoghead1
Guru
Posts: 2011
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:02 pm

Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #9

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes, but the Bible has many rules and practices we no longer see fit to hold with. Who holds with all the dietary rules and regulations? The Bible also sanctifies many practices we would find abhorrent, such as the sanctification of slavery in Exod. 21. And how about Lot? The Bible has no trouble with him handing our his daughters as prostitutes.

User avatar
bluethread
Savant
Posts: 9133
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:10 pm

Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #10

Post by bluethread »

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes, but the Bible has many rules and practices we no longer see fit to hold with. Who holds with all the dietary rules and regulations? The Bible also sanctifies many practices we would find abhorrent, such as the sanctification of slavery in Exod. 21. And how about Lot? The Bible has no trouble with him handing our his daughters as prostitutes.
I have no problem with the so called "dietary" rules and regulations. I also contest your assertion that slavery and Lot's actions are "sanctified".

Post Reply