homosexuality is NOT a sin

[icetiger300]

Hello, homosexuality and same sex marriage is not condemned and here's why.

These are not 100% accurate translations of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, they've been taken them out of their Scriptural and cultural context.

So, let"s put them back, and have a look"

Because they are basically repeating, I will just deal with the non murderous verse Leviticus 18:22.

That chapter starts off with God telling Moses to tell the Israelites to "not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices."

It then goes on listing many various incestual restrictions, and then it tells not to have sex with a woman when she is having her period, then it tells not to have sex with your neighbors wife.

Then it takes a completely different turn, and tells not to give any of your children to be sacrificed to the Pagan god Molek.

After that, the restrictions of a mankind with mankind and sex with animals come in.

The reason for that is because back then in the culture God was referring to, the Pagans would start off their fertility ritual with a child sacrifice. What would follow was an orgy, where the women, but most of all the men, would have sex with anything and anybody. But they were very careful to do it in a way that would not impregnate anyone, that was only for the woman they were married to. So, they would have sex with animals and anal sex with Galli priests, and temple prostitutes.

They fully believed that what they were doing pleased their gods and goddesses. They believed that it would bring all forms of fertility to them and their land, but they were not homosexuals sexuality expressing their love and attraction for one another, the vast majority of them were not even homosexuals.

However, if you chose to ignore all of that, it is a fact that those two verses were only referring to men, and that means they could not refer to any and all homosexual sex for any reason.

One must factor in the cultural and Scriptural context. The Jews of that time, and in that culture did not know that a woman had a egg. They thought the the man's seed was like the seed of a plant, and the woman was (Like an incubator) just to be implanted with their seed. They also held increasing their numbers to the utmost importance. There are a few reasons for that, but the most crucial, was because they wanted to make their religion more dominant.

So, their reasons were based on their biological ignorance, and for the most part selfishness.

Given their belief they viewed any use of a man's seed other than for the attempt at procreation to be anything from uncleanliness, all the way up to murder.

Given this, it's not surprising that that would have an issue with a man having sex for any reason other than to procreate. However, if you take all of that into consideration, and the fact that they were coming into contact with cultures that embraced things like pederasty, and Pagan fertility orgies. It would be no surprise to see a lot of parts in the Old Testament (Torah) that strictly forbade men having any kind of sex other than sex to procreate.

But, in fact there are only 2 out of 23,145 verses in the Old Testament (Torah) that some state have to do with it directly forbidding men having sex with men. And, as I have pointed out, it is clearly backed up by the Scriptural and cultural context, that it was not any and all homosexual sex that was being condemned.

It is paganism.

I forgot to add this regarding Leviticus chapter 20...

If the focus of that murderous chapter was not surrounding Pagan idolatry, why would it start off with this?...

(Leviticus 20:1-5)

The Lord said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites: "Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek.A279;

With Romans:26-28 it is actually right there in the context of the scriptures that Paul was not referring to homosexuals. I think you would agree that just because someone engages in homosexual sex does not mean they are a hoimosexual.

Here is the context...

"Because of this, God gave them over"

Because of what? Here is what...

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God"s invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator"who is forever praised. Amen.

Now that is not Paul reffering to homosexuals, those people were Pagans engaging in idolatrous sex orgies.

Again...

The reason for that is because back then in the culture Paul was referring to, the Pagans would occasionally start off their fertility ritual with a child sacrifice. What would follow was an orgy, where the women, but most of all the men, would have sex with anything and anybody. But they were very careful to do it in a way that would not impregnate anyone, that was only for the woman they were married to. So, they would have sex with animals and anal sex with Galli priests, and temple prostitutes.

They fully believed that what they were doing pleased their gods and goddesses. They believed that it would bring all forms of fertility to them and their land, but they were not homosexuals sexuality expressing their love and attraction for one another, the vast majority of them were not even homosexuals.

The fact is that there was never any Greek or Hebrew words that were used in refrance to homosexuality used anywhere in the Scriptures, and there were words that would have left to question as to what the writer was reffering to. It is humans that have been equating aspects of Paganism with homosexuality, not the writers of the Scriptures or God. This is nothing new, things like this have been going on for as long as the Scriptures have existed.


Oh yeah. about "Sodom and Gomorrah".

Why is it that some of you have equated an angry mob threatening to gang rape some strangers in their city with homosexuality? Are you aware of the fact that not one Jew/Hebrew/Israelite in almost 4000 years ever taught that? They have always taught that the people of "Sodom" treated strangers and the needy sadistically at times, there are horrible stories regarding this in their teachings. Are you also aware of the fact that there is not one living Biblical Scholar that believes that homosexuality was the reason for their destruction? Even the Scriptures where Jesus and God describe the reasons, it was not due to homosexuality.

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus Christ condemns specific towns which reject His disciples to the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Matthew 10:14 "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."

Matthew 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

These passages from Jesus show that hospitality was seen as a quality of righteousness in the ancient world.

Any city that proved inhospitable, was condemned to the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of the plain indeed treated visitors with cruelty, brutality, and viciousness.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 is a unique passage in that God Himself talks of the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

This passage confirms the above allegations concerning Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of the plain were "overfed", indicating a wealth and abundance of food and resources.

They were "unconcerned", as Isaiah and Jeremiah both pointed to their arrogance, and "haughty and did detestable things", demonstrated in their treatment of the young girls and their treatment of God's angels.

They also refused to help the needy and the poor, an indication of the selfishness of the people.

If it would not have been for the intercession of the angels, Lot might have been counted amongst the Sodomites victims. And, the Angles would have most likely been killed.

I hope that clears up your confusion, and that you stop spreading lies and distortions that have caused nothing but harm and death to multi-millions of God's children and in His name worst of all.

Correct if I'm wrong christians.

[RightReason]

[Replying to Metadian]

The consensus in modern psychiatry is that transgenderism and gender dysphoria are better treated through transitioning, because this is what empirically yields the best results. Be that hormonal, surgical or social transitioning. Not treating gender dysphoria is what makes the person suffer, because there is a mismatch between psychological gender identity and biological sexual characteristics (for instance see this and this).

People who transition have a better quality of life and "regretting" it is anecdotical and probably a product of bad patient selection for specific surgeries. There's overwhelming evidence, which is why it is the standard care in most developed first world countries. Nitpicking a single conservative-aligned doctor or a specific statistic doesn't negate the bulk of quality of life improvement and aggregate professional expertise.

The modern consensus is just that modern consensus which there is even evidence has been politically influenced and like was the original point – NOT based on science. Also, keep in mind the medical profession has often had a majority of professionals recommend certain things that were later found out to be bad advice. Often decisions are not based solely on the science/facts, rather all can be influenced by the culture, lobbyists, and politics.

It’s funny how things related to sexuality are somehow exempt from being assessed the same way non sexual things are. For example those who (and these are real things) insist they were supposed to be blind or born without limbs or eternally a six year old or a bird and want to have procedures to remove their eye sight or legs or demand we call and treat them like a 6 year old or a bird, we correctly label things the mental illnesses they are. In doing so, we are able to better help the person. We do not help them transition as a bird or have their legs amputated because they aren’t comfortable in their own skin.

[tam]

[Replying to post 41 by RightReason]

The modern consensus is just that modern consensus which there is even evidence has been politically influenced and like was the original point – NOT based on science.

This is not quite accurate.


This is what you were responding to from metadian:

The consensus in modern psychiatry is that transgenderism and gender dysphoria are better treated through transitioning, because this is what empirically yields the best results.

So it was not just a 'modern consensus'. It was the consensus of modern psychiatry, and it was based upon empirical results. (there were also links to scientific articles/studies in that post.)


**

The following is not addressed specifically to you, RR, but to anyone.


Science aside, there is also love.

I have heard more than one person state that we should not make decisions based upon emotion. But God IS love. His law IS love. Emotion HAS to play a role in how we see things; how we treat people. Love being that emotion.


If you say that you are a woman in a man's body (or vice versa), I am going to respect that. I am also going to believe you. Who in the world am I to suggest otherwise? Who in the world am I to add to your pain by denying what you say about you? By denying YOU?

I would want to be heard. I would want to be listened to. I would want to be respected for who I say I am, for who I know I am. Wouldn't you? And if you would, then don't you have to do the same for others?


And for goodness sakes, why wouldn't it be possible? The flesh counts for nothing. The spirit is what counts; the person that we are on the inside.

And God has both male and female attributes. As does Christ. And Adam (man) was created both male and female until the female (Eve) was taken out of him. And Adam (man) was created in the image of God.

So it does not surprise me in the least that the spirit and the flesh can get mixed up.


Peace to you and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[RightReason]

[Replying to tam]

Science aside, there is also love.

Exactly! I have great love for LBGTQ individuals. We are all children of God, dealing with our own struggles.

I have heard more than one person state that we should not make decisions based upon emotion. But God IS love. His law IS love. Emotion HAS to play a role in how we see things; how we treat people. Love being that emotion.

Of course, but feelings don’t change truth. And love is not just feeling/emotion. Love is doing and desiring what is right/best for someone. Love is an act of the will.

If you say that you are a woman in a man's body (or vice versa), I am going to respect that. I am also going to believe you. Who in the world am I to suggest otherwise? Who in the world am I to add to your pain by denying what you say about you? By denying YOU?

I’m afraid I don’t see that as Love. You don’t want the person to be angry with you. You don’t want to make waves. You would rather be popular than do/say what is right. In the long run, it doesn’t help. It is more hurtful and damaging.

If I say I am a dog – that I feel I have always been a dog trapped in a human body and that I want to live my life as a dog, are you going to respect that? Just let me be? Tell me how happy you are for me and serve me all my food in a dog dish? That isn’t Love.

I would want to be heard. I would want to be listened to. I would want to be respected for who I say I am, for who I know I am. Wouldn't you? And if you would, then don't you have to do the same for others?

Absolutely! Who isn’t hearing/listening/loving/supporting? The idea that one can’t recognize homosexual acts or transgender surgery as wrong and still love and respect the person is a strawman and quite frankly bigotry.

And for goodness sakes, why wouldn't it be possible? The flesh counts for nothing. The spirit is what counts; the person that we are on the inside.

Truth reality exists. For goodness sake – why can’t you recognize it is actually a psychological problem? When a 70 lb anorexic looks in a mirror and sees a fat person, she is not really fat. That is all in her head. You wouldn’t allow her to continue her deception.

I truly believe you are very wrong about this and are offering a false compassion. God has a plan for each of us, but His plans always follow the natural laws of the world He created. He created us male and female for a reason. And we each gender has its own unique, beautiful, special role that are not interchangeable.

We need to love our brothers and sisters who struggle with their sexual identity -- not tell them what they think they want to hear. We need to really be there for them.

[Metadian]

The modern consensus is just that modern consensus which there is even evidence has been politically influenced and like was the original point – NOT based on science. Also, keep in mind the medical profession has often had a majority of professionals recommend certain things that were later found out to be bad advice. Often decisions are not based solely on the science/facts, rather all can be influenced by the culture, lobbyists, and politics.

I have completed my theoretical formation in psychiatry, and it is in fact both my personal and professional opinion that we have empirical evidence of that. I linked to some examples, which you can address if you want. But those results are eminently scientific, not political. If you have religious/philosophical re-interpretations of science, though, that is a separate topic; you have to be aware on which level you are disagreeing, though. Your opinion that something is ideological must be backed up by empirical evidence itself that makes the bias manifest, or else it is just an impression and unpersuasive. This is especially blatant if you need to over-write people's self-reported well-being as "ungenuine" with nothing but an arbitrary value judgment.

It’s funny how things related to sexuality are somehow exempt from being assessed the same way non sexual things are. For example those who (and these are real things) insist they were supposed to be blind or born without limbs or eternally a six year old or a bird and want to have procedures to remove their eye sight or legs or demand we call and treat them like a 6 year old or a bird, we correctly label things the mental illnesses they are. In doing so, we are able to better help the person. We do not help them transition as a bird or have their legs amputated because they aren’t comfortable in their own skin.

I agree that sexuality should be treated like the rest of a person's subjectivity, but your idea that this is somehow resulted in under-pathologizing and under-psychiatrizing is the entire opposite of what our wider cultural trajectory and empirical evidence point to.

Mental illness or abnormality in the pathological sense are defined by (1) distress, (2) psychosis / loss of reality judgment, (3) loss of control, (4) criminality (hurting others). Back in the 60s, and still in many theocratic countries where religious ideology hinders the neutrality of science, homosexuality was considered a "paraphilia" or abnormal sexuality. Now it isn't. This may or may not be the result of lobbying, but it is irrelevant, because gay people in loving relationships suffer no distress from being gay, aren't psychotic, have control of their lives and do not go around hurting others because they're gay. In addition, attempts at "curing the gay" or steering all orientations back to heterosexuality as a way to "care for the person" have been rightly condemned as torture, and the medical community worldwide rejects them. You can "cure the straight" in just the same way and it proves more the mental illness of the person who is hurting another (2 - loss of reality judgment, 4 - criminality), just like dangerous cults (delusion being a form of psychosis), than that of the poor gay teenager.

Transgenderism is not a sexuality thing. It's a gender identity thing. Gender identity refers to the idea a person has of their self, sexuality is about experiencing attraction. Trans people can be gay, gay people can be trans, but they are different and don't need to happen at the same time; it is rather unfortunate that many religious people conflate entirely different phenomena, but on the other hand it is a manifestation of the lack of awareness of human variety whose struggles they claim to be sympathetic to.

You're implying that a person who has gender dysphoria here is psychotic, like someone who believes they're a bird or 6-years-old, or has a stress disorder, like someone with oddity extreme cases of body dysmorphia such that they threaten surgeons. This shows an all-over-the-place misunderstanding of mental illness. In these two cases, there would be mental illness if a person really thinks they are a bird (2 - psychosis) or if they suffer and lose control of their life for it, even so as to threaten a physician (1/3 - distress and loss of control, 4 - criminality). If not, what you have is a belief, but thankfully for most of humanity, having wrong/eccentric beliefs is not being ill, so long as it doesn't interfere with the life of that person. If all your belief you're a bird results in is you wearing more bird T-shirts and joining an ornithology club, carry on for all I care, be happy. There's more important problems going on. The person may not even be ill if they criticize the belief, for all you know, it's literally their religion (eg a mystic idea of reincarnation and natural unity).

Trans people realize they're of a certain sex, male or female, but they want to live as the other gender. They feel psychologically, socially and culturally in closer touch with that gender than the one they were assigned at birth because of their genitals. This is why the terminology is MtF or FtM: male-to-female, female-to-male. This is not psychotic, they are acutely aware of their 'otherness' and anatomy. But thinking a deep voice suits you, wanting to hang with other boys, feeling better about yourself when being called 'he', or not wanting to have breasts is not the mental illness! If you think it is, you're the first person pushing for ideological injection. Do you also think women who want a breast reduction are ill because "it's their natural body and it's a mutilation"? Tattoos? Piercings? Nail biting? Circumcision?

[RightReason]

[Replying to Metadian]

I recognize different illnesses need to be treated differently. I do not, however, believe feelings and “wishful thinking� can override reality/truth/fact. No one is calling anyone “crazy�, though you act if that’s what I am implying. That is your projected stereotype of my position. However, that is not what I believe or have ever said. Mental illness is not something to be ashamed of. It is a very serious illness and does not render a person “nuts�.


And as long as we are honoring science/facts/empirical evidence, please do not ignore the facts that show those who engage in same sex relationships and those who undergo transsexual surgery suffer higher rates of alcohol and substance abuse, depression, suicide, domestic violence, and higher rates of sexually transmitted disease.


Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs) have been rising among gay and bisexual men, with increases in syphilis being seen across the country. In 2014, gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men accounted for 83% of primary and secondary syphilis cases where sex of sex partner was known in the United States. Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men often get other STDs, including chlamydia and gonorrhea infections. HPV (Human papillomavirus), the most common STD in the United States, is also a concern for gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men. Some types of HPV can cause genital and anal warts and some can lead to the development of anal and oral cancers. Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely to get anal cancer than heterosexual men. Men who are HIV-positive are even more likely than those who do not have HIV to get anal cancer.


https://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/STD.htm


compared to other men, gay, bisexual and other men who have sex with men are additionally affected by:

Higher rates of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs);
Tobacco and drug use;
Depression.

There are many reasons why gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men may have higher rates of HIV and STDs. Some of them are:

Prevalence of HIV among sexual partners of gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men is 40 times that of sexual partners of heterosexual men;
Receptive anal sex is 18 times more risky for HIV acquisition than receptive vaginal sex;

Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men on average have a greater number of lifetime sexual partners.

In fact, gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men make up more than half of the people living with HIV in the United States and experience two thirds of all new HIV infections each year. Further, young gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men 13-24 had over 72% of the estimated new HIV infections in 2010. In 2012, 75% of reported syphilis cases were among gay and bisexual men.

https://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/for-your-health.htm

^ That’s a whole lot of empirical evidence.

Homophobia and stigma were also included as other factors that could negatively impact a person’s health and ability to receive appropriate care. Of course, that is getting harder and harder to suggest given the increasing celebration and support of the LGBTQ community.

We are called to love one another. We can only love each other by acknowledging truth.

A woman who wants a breast augmentation or breast reduction could be suffering from body image issues which could manifest itself in psychological disorders. This would need to be addressed. Again, would a woman that wants a boob job be psychotic? Of course not, but neither am I suggesting men who want to be women are psychotic. I am suggesting they might be dealing with some psychological issues that could include a discrepancy in what is real and what they think is real. Also, it isn’t about surgery or what is unnatural. I’m not anti surgery or synthetics! If surgery restores something to its proper order/state it is right/good. If you have eye surgery to help you see and improve your vision that is good and properly ordered. Even a boob job or reduction can restore a woman to her optimum natural quality. If you have eye surgery to help you see that would be properly ordered. If you have surgery to make you blind because you desire to be blind because you think you relate better or feel more comfortable as a blind person, that would be disordered and should not be encouraged.

Let us be there for one another and when a person is sick let us have the courage to say so and help them get the help they need. True love and compassion is required – not new psychological terms to mask a mental illness. This helps no one and can lead to a life of real damage and harm as the above scientific evidence from the CDC reveals.

[tam]

Peace to you RR,

I have heard more than one person state that we should not make decisions based upon emotion. But God IS love. His law IS love. Emotion HAS to play a role in how we see things; how we treat people. Love being that emotion.

Of course, but feelings don’t change truth. And love is not just feeling/emotion. Love is doing and desiring what is right/best for someone. Love is an act of the will.

I would like to agree with you (I do agree with you that feelings don't change truth, but one best be sure they know what the truth is; and if you do not know, or you might not... well, love covers over a multitude of sins and love is the fulfillment of the law, so if we are going to err, best err on the side of love). But the part that I bolded can quite easily become doing what YOU think is right/best for someone else. Even to the point that you override their will, their words, their needs... with your will, based upon your belief. And sometimes this is done despite what the other person says is right/best for them; despite what THEY say they need; despite what they have clearly asked that you do.



I do not see that as adhering to the golden rule.

If you say that you are a woman in a man's body (or vice versa), I am going to respect that. I am also going to believe you. Who in the world am I to suggest otherwise? Who in the world am I to add to your pain by denying what you say about you? By denying YOU?

I’m afraid I don’t see that as Love. You don’t want the person to be angry with you. You don’t want to make waves. You would rather be popular than do/say what is right. In the long run, it doesn’t help. It is more hurtful and damaging.

You could not be more wrong, at least not as pertains to me (and if it pertains to me then I am sure there are others it pertains to as well). I said exactly what I want (or do not want). I do not care in the least about any of those other things that you listed off.

I would want to be heard. I would want to be listened to. I would want to be respected for who I say I am, for who I know I am. Wouldn't you? And if you would, then don't you have to do the same for others?

Absolutely! Who isn’t hearing/listening/loving/supporting? The idea that one can’t recognize homosexual acts or transgender surgery as wrong and still love and respect the person is a strawman and quite frankly bigotry.

A person can hear words but not hear. I person can listen to words but not listen.

And for goodness sakes, why wouldn't it be possible? The flesh counts for nothing. The spirit is what counts; the person that we are on the inside.

Truth reality exists. For goodness sake – why can’t you recognize it is actually a psychological problem?

Because I have no reason to accept that. And even if it was a psychological problem, that doesn't mean that the treatment that works best isn't exactly what is being done. Living their life as the gender they identify as being (hopefully having people respect that - golden rule; live and let live; etc).

We already know that 'attempts' to 'cure' people of their gayness cause a great deal of harm. We can see that denying people their identity (gender or sexually) also causes harm. I will not add to that pain. (for transparency sake, I have added to that pain with some careless words in the past).

I would hope that we (mankind) would have learned from the past and how we have treated gay people and how much harm we caused the innocent because of it.

(It really also is not my business to begin with - Matthew 7:3)

I truly believe you are very wrong about this and are offering a false compassion.

You are incorrect. I am not offering a false compassion. Do you have any loved ones that might have been around you as they were growing up who are homosexual, bisexual, bi-gender, or transgender? Because I have dear loved ones in all of these categories, some I knew growing up and some I met later in life. So please do not tell me that my compassion is false. My compassion is genuine.

God has a plan for each of us, but His plans always follow the natural laws of the world He created. He created us male and female for a reason. And we each gender has its own unique, beautiful, special role that are not interchangeable.

I recognize that this is your belief. I disagree, in part for the reasons I stated in my previous post. You have some big wall between the genders that cannot be crossed, but there is no slave or free, gentile or Jew, male or female, in God.


Men and women are kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom. Women and men are part of the Bride (of Christ). Gender is non-issue.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[RightReason]

[Replying to tam]

Of course, but feelings don’t change truth. And love is not just feeling/emotion. Love is doing and desiring what is right/best for someone. Love is an act of the will.

I would like to agree with you (I do agree with you that feelings don't change truth

So, you would agree that a man feeling like a woman does not make him a woman? But you suggest, based on his feelings, we accept the reality he insists and indeed change truth?

but one best be sure they know what the truth is;

Sure. And can’t that be known? Can’t that via observation, via acknowledging science/biology, via logic/reason regarding the order/design – way the world works be known? I am acknowledging what can be known. You are equating feelings and “wishful thinking� with what we can be known.

and if you do not know, or you might not... well, love covers over a multitude of sins and love is the fulfillment of the law, so if we are going to err, best err on the side of love).

Sooo true . . .


“but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.� Matt 18:6


“By sinning against your brothers in this way and wounding their weak conscience, you sin against Christ�. 1 Corr 8:12

But the part that I bolded can quite easily become doing what YOU think is right/best for someone else. Even to the point that you override their will, their words, their needs... with your will, based upon your belief.

Yes, quite true again. Which makes the increasing pro gay agenda in our culture all the more dangerous. Take a few liberal, influenced by the fashions of the day, politically correct teachers or parents or counselors or doctors, or friends and imagine the influence and effect they could have on someone’s life. Encouraging and permitting children to declare themselves the opposite gender and be permitted to take hormones comes to mind. If someone is having same sex attraction and wishes he/she wasn’t and goes to a pro gay doctor to discuss, how horrific to be told something like, “you were born this way. You can’t do anything about it. You must embrace it.� It is my opinion that doctor and even any family members that provided “well intentioned� encouragement that ended up leading that person down the wrong path will have to answer to God.

And sometimes this is done despite what the other person says is right/best for them; despite what THEY say they need; despite what they have clearly asked that you do.

Sometimes it needs to be. For example, any addict is in denial and thinks they know what they need. They tell you to butt out – that they know what is right/best for themselves. Also, you are ignoring that there are a great number of individuals with same sex attraction that admit they are conflicted and don’t know what is right/best and are often seeking the help/advice/opinion/love from others. What a shame if it is our words that lead them into sin.

I know I would tell the person how loved they are. How unique they are. How they are a child of God and that God has a plan for them. I would encourage the person to talk to others who have had similar feelings (groups like Courage) – that they aren’t alone. I would probably encourage them to read JPII’s Theology of the Body. I would tell them with God all things are possible. I would also do soooooo much more – not just give some lecture or recommended books, but really be there for the person. I would listen to them. I would cry with them. I might share my own different but personal struggles, explaining how we all have our own unique crosses. I would encourage them to read Scripture – to stay close to God. I would never yell or criticize or shame. I would gently show them the truth, the facts, and of course the beauty of God’s design for men and women. I would make sure they know they deserve the best. They deserve all the peace and happiness and joy God want them to have. They needn’t settle for what they hear screamed at them from a misguided culture. They deserve better than that. They deserve the truth ad I personally think they can handle the truth. Because nothing else will suffice and though not always the easiest path – it is certainly the best and only path worth taking.

I do not see that as adhering to the golden rule.

It absolutely adheres to the Golden Rule. “Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you� I would hope others wouldn’t sugar coat the truth for me. I would hope they would not adopt a “live and let live� attitude with me, as that is the opposite of caring.

I’m afraid I don’t see that as Love. You don’t want the person to be angry with you. You don’t want to make waves. You would rather be popular than do/say what is right. In the long run, it doesn’t help. It is more hurtful and damaging.


You could not be more wrong, at least not as pertains to me (and if it pertains to me then I am sure there are others it pertains to as well). I said exactly what I want (or do not want). I do not care in the least about any of those other things that you listed off.

Probably not consciously, but the very popular “Love is love� mantra is misguided attempts at “tolerance�. People want to feel like they are being inclusive and compassionate. It makes them feel good to wave the rainbow flag, pat themselves on the back for being good and decent human beings. But again their emotions/feelings override truth. Love is not love. There are different kinds of “love� and many of them are disordered and will never bring the person peace/happiness and human fulfillment. Living contrary to natural law and contrary to God’s law can never bring true fulfillment.

Absolutely! Who isn’t hearing/listening/loving/supporting? The idea that one can’t recognize homosexual acts or transgender surgery as wrong and still love and respect the person is a strawman and quite frankly bigotry.


A person can hear words but not hear. I person can listen to words but not listen.

Indeed.

Living their life as the gender they identify as being (hopefully having people respect that - golden rule; live and let live; etc).

So you’re ok with these . . .


http://www.barcroft.tv/body-Integrity-i ... in-cleaner


http://naturalsociety.com/transabled-a- ... -disabled/


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... nknee.html

We already know that 'attempts' to 'cure' people of their gayness cause a great deal of harm.

Not sure what you mean by ‘cure’, but I can assure you there are a great number of individuals who have same sex attraction who either no longer do and or no longer act on them because they know to do so is wrong and doesn’t bring them the peace/happiness/fulfillment they are looking for.

What we do know is many of the facts/statistics reported by the CDC in my previous post regarding higher rates of substance abuse, depression, suicide, domestic violence, sexually transmitted disease, etc. in this group.

We can see that denying people their identity (gender or sexually) also causes harm. I will not add to that pain.

But you are adding to that pain if you are denying the person access to authentic peace/happiness simply because you are afraid it will be too hard/painful for them at the time. Perhaps you are afraid it is too hard/painful for you. It isn’t easy standing up for what is right/good. Like I said above, it can make us unpopular. Everyone wants to be the grandparent who gets to feed the child candy and treats. It feels good to do so.

I would hope that we (mankind) would have learned from the past and how we have treated gay people and how much harm we caused the innocent because of it.

I do too and think we are making progress. Women who were caught in adultery were made to wear a Scarlet Letter, we use to publicly hang thieves for spectators to watch. These are horrible things that seems we have somewhat come to our senses about. Of course it doesn’t mean adultery or stealing are not sins. Once again, I have always rebuked any kind of shame/public humiliation/or harm that has been done to gay people. It is disgusting.

You are incorrect. I am not offering a false compassion. Do you have any loved ones that might have been around you as they were growing up who are homosexual, bisexual, bi-gender, or transgender? Because I have dear loved ones in all of these categories, some I knew growing up and some I met later in life. So please do not tell me that my compassion is false. My compassion is genuine.

I don’t mean to dismiss your comments above, but I am afraid they say/demonstrate nothing about compassion.

You have some big wall between the genders that cannot be crossed

I didn’t design/create the different genders – GOD did. I am simply acknowledging and respecting His design/creation.

Gender is non-issue

If gender were a non issue we wouldn’t be having this conversation, people wouldn’t feel some need to change or alter their gender if gender were a non issue. Obviously the different genders aren’t interchangeable. Obviously one’s gender does matter. And obviously it isn’t even simply about plumbing. Gender differences are part of who we are – inside and out. And once again – this is not a better/superior vs a weaker/inferior. The different genders do not diminish or change the fact that we are all children of God. I think you misunderstand the beauty of the design of our creator.

[Metadian]

[Replying to post 45 by RightReason]

That is your projected stereotype of my position. However, that is not what I believe or have ever said. Mental illness is not something to be ashamed of. It is a very serious illness and does not render a person “nuts�.

Glad that we're on the same page for the de-stigmatization of mental illnesses then.

And as long as we are honoring science/facts/empirical evidence, please do not ignore the facts that show those who engage in same sex relationships and those who undergo transsexual surgery suffer higher rates of alcohol and substance abuse, depression, suicide, domestic violence, and higher rates of sexually transmitted disease.

I do not deny these things (except domestic violence, which is ambiguous as far as I remember). But pay attention that you're comparing them to heterosexuals. What we need to ask is, "does their mental health improve with the treatment?" And the answer is yes, depression, substance abuse, suicide, etc, are lower when you treat gender dysphoria than if you don't. That's what is meant with "transitioning improves quality of life".

Otherwise, what you're basically saying is, "this drug is not a good treatment choice for Hep C virus patients because Hep C virus people have less liver function than Hep B virus patients."

Likewise, being in same-sex relationships is a predictor of better mental health than being single. This applies to gays and lesbians. Sexual repression though, be that in straight or gays, is correlated with sexual guilt and poorer mental health.

You also have to distinguish "engaging in same-sex SEXUAL relationships" with being in a same-sex relationship, or in several throughout life. The problem with STDs is that promiscuity increases risk. But that's not inherent to being attracted to one gender over another; preference is not behavior. Not every gay person is promiscuous, and if they are, the problem is not that they're promiscuous with their same gender, the problem is the unstability, low self-esteem, etc, that lead to that, just like hypersexual straight men and women. Alternatively, for some people, who do not wish romantic relationships and have safe sex, "promiscuity" may not be a problem at all, other than your value judgment: their happiness is their say, not ours. Whether this or that STD is more prevalent in straights than gays or vice versa are just contingencies; by that measure, exclusive lesbianism is the healthiest.

I am suggesting they might be dealing with some psychological issues that could include a discrepancy in what is real and what they think is real.

If the problem to you is that they are male/female but want to behave as a woman/man (respectively), it does seem to me you are arguing they are psychotic. If not, what you are saying is that you don't like that they feel better that way. But they do, that's simply not something anybody but the person who has it can report. Their choice is as you said before to "improve" something, and they feel that in society their better life is playing the role and having the appearance of the other gender. This includes no "wishful thinking" at all. They know their biological sex and their doctors and partners do too. Many non-trans people do not have a problem with this (for instance, me), are we also failing to see reality somehow?

[RightReason]

[Replying to Metadian]

Glad that we're on the same page for the de-stigmatization of mental illnesses then.

Of course. To do so is wrong and prevents a person being able to get the help he/she needs.

Quote:
And as long as we are honoring science/facts/empirical evidence, please do not ignore the facts that show those who engage in same sex relationships and those who undergo transsexual surgery suffer higher rates of alcohol and substance abuse, depression, suicide, domestic violence, and higher rates of sexually transmitted disease.

I do not deny these things (except domestic violence, which is ambiguous as far as I remember).

The National Violence Against Women survey found that 21.5 percent of men and 35.4 percent of women living with a same-sex partner experienced intimate-partner physical violence in their lifetimes, compared with 7.1 percent and 20.4 percent for men and women, respectively, with a history of only opposite-sex cohabitation. Transgender respondents had an incidence of 34.6 percent over a lifetime according to a Massachusetts survey.

https://www.advocate.com/crime/2014/09/ ... lgbt-issue


The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)'s 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey reported on the lifetime prevalence of rape, physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner, focusing for the first time on victimization by sexual orientation. In their study, there was a victimization prevalence of 43.8 percent for lesbians, which made it the second most affected group after bisexual women (61.1 percent), ahead of bisexual men (37.3 percent), heterosexual women (35 percent), heterosexual men (29 percent) and homosexual men (26 percent).[8]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_ ... ationships

But pay attention that you're comparing them to heterosexuals. What we need to ask is, "does their mental health improve with the treatment?" And the answer is yes, depression, substance abuse, suicide, etc, are lower when you treat gender dysphoria than if you don't.

There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow.

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/200 ... ntalhealth

Conclusions
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl ... ne.0016885


Urologist Miroslav Djordjevic, who specializes in gender reassignment surgery, has seen an increase in “reversal� surgeries among transgender women who want their male genitalia back. In the past five years, Djordjevic performed seven reversals in his clinic in Belgrade, Serbia. The urologist explains to The Telegraph that those who want the reversal display high levels of depression, and in some instances, suicidal thoughts. Other researchers also report hearing about such regrets.

http://www.newsweek.com/transgender-wom ... ery-676777

Likewise, being in same-sex relationships is a predictor of better mental health than being single. This applies to gays and lesbians.

On the contrary, there is evidence that statistically speaking married homosexual relationships are different from married heterosexual couples including things like the duration of the relationship, monogamy, number of children, health risks, and rates of partner violence. So, no I wouldn’t say being in a same-sex relationship results in improved mental or physical health just because we know that historically married couples are healthier than single. There are other factors to be considered.

Sexual repression though, be that in straight or gays, is correlated with sexual guilt and poorer mental health.

Sure, but if sexual urges are wrong/unhealthy, dangerous then they certainly ought to be discouraged rather than encouraged. Also, there are many happy healthy individuals living their lives absent of sexual activity.

You also have to distinguish "engaging in same-sex SEXUAL relationships" with being in a same-sex relationship, or in several throughout life. The problem with STDs is that promiscuity increases risk.

Yes, but studies do show that more gay unions are open to open marriages than straight unions. You also need to recognize there are certain sexual behaviors like anal sex, which is more popular with gay men than straight men that is a higher risk behavior and increases one’s risk of disease. So, you would need to factor in that the attitude and behavior of gay couples is different than straight couples and these differences in attitude and behavior are more likely to result in health risks.

Their choice is as you said before to "improve" something, and they feel that in society their better life is playing the role and having the appearance of the other gender. This includes no "wishful thinking" at all. They know their biological sex and their doctors and partners do too. Many non-trans people do not have a problem with this (for instance, me), are we also failing to see reality somehow?

Then it is not unlike these examples I posted for Tam:

ttp://www.barcroft.tv/body-Integrity-identity ... rself-blin...


http://naturalsociety.com/transabled-a- ... -be-medica...


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... and-father...

where the individual knows they are not blind, paralyzed, or a 6 year old, but they simply prefer to live as if they are. So, I am right, they are denying the reality and believe for them it is an improvement. Even though this “improvement� often involves unhealthy/dangerous/risky actions and then it can’t be shown that they are in fact happier/healthier/improved beyond the short term of getting what they think they want. Personally, I think they deserve better. I think they will never feel true peace/joy/happiness living in their created reality. In fact, it would be impossible to achieve true human fulfillment living contrary to Truth.

[Metadian]

[Replying to post 49 by RightReason]
I'm not sure if you realize that your studies not only do not provide evidence for your text, but actively provide evidence for what I said.

The CDC one, which is the one I remembered, sandwiches heterosexuality between gay women and gay men. If you want to cherry-pick that women-attracted women are in some sort of hazard environment because they're women-attracted, I could cherry-pick that gay men are emotionally safer because of being men-attracted. The other study provides a different view. We could just be honest that it's ambiguous, as I claimed.

If anything, those studies prove that domestic partner is a couples' problem. It does not render entire man/man, man/woman or woman/woman combinations as unhealthy, that's like saying murder statistics render being-a-man / masculinity unhealthy (which, incidentally, is something "feminist theory" states in its most docrinal instantiations, that I heavily criticize too). It's a wrong conclusion of fuzzy data and if you think it provides evidence maybe you're trying to fit belief to fact, which isn't a scientific predisposition.

One of the studies says there's no "robust evidence" about SRS, I provided two that confirmed an increase of quality of life for specific surgeries (and explained that you have to measure these things well, because a bad selection of patients for any surgery can compromise results), but:

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

Is exactly what I explained earlier. These are two different groups of people, and trans people already have those indicators high. You don't measure that their mental illness rates are high, compare them to straights, and say "wow, this is the fault of the treatment". That doesn't make any sense, methodologically.

What you do is, you compare before-treatment and after-treatment and ask, "has their quality of life improved?". The answer is yes, by most studies, which is why it is standard medical care. Treating gender dysphoria lowers depression, anxiety, and improves self-esteem, social, interpersonal and individual functioning. They use the word alleviate in your very quote!

The "reversal" surgery thing I addressed before: it is anecdotical. An increase doesn't mean it's significant, that could be 0.01% or 0.001% of the totality of trans population, and it is also the case that this surgeon specializes in that so he'd see all the cases because the cases seek him out. You can also counter-cite surgeons who do hundreds of successful SRSs every year who stay that way, that is the typical prognosis. In addition those patients are people who are not trans, which is why they're depressed/anxious when they "transition": they get gender dysphoria! That's the state you're wishing people who want to transition to be in, if you say that they shouldn't transition.

So, no I wouldn’t say being in a same-sex relationship results in improved mental or physical health just because we know that historically married couples are healthier than single. There are other factors to be considered.

I never said that and that doesn't make sense. What you need to address is, "are single gay people less healthy and happy than gay people in couples?", not, "are gay people less healthy and happy than straight people?". The fact is that being single is a risk factor for mental illness in any orientation.

You cannot "cure" gay people into straight people's profile of mental health by pretending they're straight, or shrug off gender dysphoria as a harmful "misconception" someone has about their own sense of self. Conversion therapy, denying dysphoria, and "praying the gay away" are entirely failed projects and result in miserable/ill gay people, not happy straight people. Like, we literally had a case of psychosis in a young gay man last year because he had guilt from being in the closet and his parents were conservatives who neglected him emotionally because of their 'beliefs'.

By encouraging gay/trans-denial as people with those predicaments (ie pretending that what is good for straight people is good for them), you're hurting the people and/or giving platform to communities that actively hurt these people. Science has been over this for decades, and if you're not a scientist yourself, I discourage you trying to lobby to make it otherwise.

Sure, but if sexual urges are wrong/unhealthy, dangerous then they certainly ought to be discouraged rather than encouraged. Also, there are many happy healthy individuals living their lives absent of sexual activity.

A sexual urge to have sex with bee hive can be unhealthy and dangerous in this sense, but as I cited earlier too, gay sexual attraction does not meet any criteria of mental illness. This is not an opinion, it is a medical fact fruit of expert consensus and the basis of mental healthcare. Your belief system does not define mental illness in our common social space, psychiatrists do, and if you want to help remove stigma, you need to stop using terms incorrectly. What is wrong to you isn't necessarily unhealthy in real life, and you seem not to be aware of this distinction.

On the methodology, we're back to the same thing, your arguments/facts do not back up your claims/theory. There are many unhappy people and sexually repressed people with no sexual activity, and many happy people in loving same-sex relationships. So maybe focusing on the sexuality is the wrong level as it doesn't account for why those who are sick are actually sick, and is the reason that straight people with those sicknesses are sick the same way. To put it another way, straight people have been depressed and giving each other STDs long before LGBT people lobied not to be electroshocked and be able to afford T-shots like diabetics get insulin.

Even though this “improvement� often involves unhealthy/dangerous/risky actions and then it can’t be shown that they are in fact happier/healthier/improved beyond the short term of getting what they think they want. Personally, I think they deserve better. I think they will never feel true peace/joy/happiness living in their created reality.

It is not short term, it is long term! What long-term decreases or doesn't increase quality of life is a series of other factors, that also affect non-trans people, like being single, low socioeconomic status, being unemployed, etc.

Wanting your eyesight removed is not the same as feeling better with a lower voice, being called a "he" and having your breasts removed. Blind people are disabled. Men are... just men. Just like women without breasts are still healthy and they're not insane. Unless you genuinely think behaving as a man or a woman has something inherently bad to it for any human, what you're really rejecting here is participating in their realization of their own happiness because their happiness contradicts your worldview.

And that's okay, you don't need to be around any trans people. Hopefully, if you are, you don't even notice because at least in my culture people's genitals are something between themselves, their doctors and their sexual partner(s). What would worry me is if you don't see that so many people claiming concern and love in this manner are actually the same who do nothing to stop them from suffering the actual violence and marginalization that is also a documented cause of the many mental health problems they face.

In fact, it would be impossible to achieve true human fulfillment living contrary to Truth

I'm content with the dialectic fulfilment of making people realize that their worldview and thoughts are one human mind's interpretation of reality and not reality itself. I really do not share your idea that men are women are a deity's holy design, or that they're being blemished by people who feel better as one than the other for any reason. I do not mind that you think this, but (1) you need to back up what you claim with evidence that actually supports the claim you're making, and (2) you need to be charged with strong reason to challenge the professional expertise of the entire global medical community; I don't say that from a place of defense of psychiatric authority, but from a place of scientific integrity and respect.