homosexuality is NOT a sin

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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icetiger300
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homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #1

Post by icetiger300 »

Hello, homosexuality and same sex marriage is not condemned and here's why. 

These are not 100% accurate translations of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, they've been taken them out of their Scriptural and cultural context. 

So, let"s put them back, and have a look" 

Because they are basically repeating, I will just deal with the non murderous verse Leviticus 18:22. 

That chapter starts off with God telling Moses to tell the Israelites to "not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices." 

It then goes on listing many various incestual restrictions, and then it tells not to have sex with a woman when she is having her period, then it tells not to have sex with your neighbors wife. 

Then it takes a completely different turn, and tells not to give any of your children to be sacrificed to the Pagan god Molek. 

After that, the restrictions of a mankind with mankind and sex with animals come in. 

The reason for that is because back then in the culture God was referring to, the Pagans would start off their fertility ritual with a child sacrifice. What would follow was an orgy, where the women, but most of all the men, would have sex with anything and anybody. But they were very careful to do it in a way that would not impregnate anyone, that was only for the woman they were married to. So, they would have sex with animals and anal sex with Galli priests, and temple prostitutes. 

They fully believed that what they were doing pleased their gods and goddesses. They believed that it would bring all forms of fertility to them and their land, but they were not homosexuals sexuality expressing their love and attraction for one another, the vast majority of them were not even homosexuals. 

However, if you chose to ignore all of that, it is a fact that those two verses were only referring to men, and that means they could not refer to any and all homosexual sex for any reason. 

One must factor in the cultural and Scriptural context. The Jews of that time, and in that culture did not know that a woman had a egg. They thought the the man's seed was like the seed of a plant, and the woman was (Like an incubator) just to be implanted with their seed. They also held increasing their numbers to the utmost importance. There are a few reasons for that, but the most crucial, was because they wanted to make their religion more dominant. 

So, their reasons were based on their biological ignorance, and for the most part selfishness. 

Given their belief they viewed any use of a man's seed other than for the attempt at procreation to be anything from uncleanliness, all the way up to murder. 

Given this, it's not surprising that that would have an issue with a man having sex for any reason other than to procreate. However, if you take all of that into consideration, and the fact that they were coming into contact with cultures that embraced things like pederasty, and Pagan fertility orgies. It would be no surprise to see a lot of parts in the Old Testament (Torah) that strictly forbade men having any kind of sex other than sex to procreate. 

But, in fact there are only 2 out of 23,145 verses in the Old Testament (Torah) that some state have to do with it directly forbidding men having sex with men. And, as I have pointed out, it is clearly backed up by the Scriptural and cultural context, that it was not any and all homosexual sex that was being condemned. 

It is paganism. 

I forgot to add this regarding Leviticus chapter 20... 

If the focus of that murderous chapter was not surrounding Pagan idolatry, why would it start off with this?... 

(Leviticus 20:1-5) 

The Lord said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites: "Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek.A279; 

With Romans:26-28 it is actually right there in the context of the scriptures that Paul was not referring to homosexuals. I think you would agree that just because someone engages in homosexual sex does not mean they are a hoimosexual.

Here is the context... 

"Because of this, God gave them over" 

Because of what? Here is what... 

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God"s invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator"who is forever praised. Amen. 

Now that is not Paul reffering to homosexuals, those people were Pagans engaging in idolatrous sex orgies. 

Again... 

The reason for that is because back then in the culture Paul was referring to, the Pagans would occasionally start off their fertility ritual with a child sacrifice. What would follow was an orgy, where the women, but most of all the men, would have sex with anything and anybody. But they were very careful to do it in a way that would not impregnate anyone, that was only for the woman they were married to. So, they would have sex with animals and anal sex with Galli priests, and temple prostitutes. 

They fully believed that what they were doing pleased their gods and goddesses. They believed that it would bring all forms of fertility to them and their land, but they were not homosexuals sexuality expressing their love and attraction for one another, the vast majority of them were not even homosexuals. 

The fact is that there was never any Greek or Hebrew words that were used in refrance to homosexuality used anywhere in the Scriptures, and there were words that would have left to question as to what the writer was reffering to. It is humans that have been equating aspects of Paganism with homosexuality, not the writers of the Scriptures or God. This is nothing new, things like this have been going on for as long as the Scriptures have existed. 


Oh yeah. about "Sodom and Gomorrah". 

Why is it that some of you have equated an angry mob threatening to gang rape some strangers in their city with homosexuality? Are you aware of the fact that not one Jew/Hebrew/Israelite in almost 4000 years ever taught that? They have always taught that the people of "Sodom" treated strangers and the needy sadistically at times, there are horrible stories regarding this in their teachings. Are you also aware of the fact that there is not one living Biblical Scholar that believes that homosexuality was the reason for their destruction? Even the Scriptures where Jesus and God describe the reasons, it was not due to homosexuality. 

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus Christ condemns specific towns which reject His disciples to the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. 

Matthew 10:14 "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town." 

Matthew 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." 

These passages from Jesus show that hospitality was seen as a quality of righteousness in the ancient world. 

Any city that proved inhospitable, was condemned to the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of the plain indeed treated visitors with cruelty, brutality, and viciousness. 

Ezekiel 16:49-50 is a unique passage in that God Himself talks of the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah. 

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 

This passage confirms the above allegations concerning Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of the plain were "overfed", indicating a wealth and abundance of food and resources. 

They were "unconcerned", as Isaiah and Jeremiah both pointed to their arrogance, and "haughty and did detestable things", demonstrated in their treatment of the young girls and their treatment of God's angels. 

They also refused to help the needy and the poor, an indication of the selfishness of the people. 

If it would not have been for the intercession of the angels, Lot might have been counted amongst the Sodomites victims. And, the Angles would have most likely been killed. 

I hope that clears up your confusion, and that you stop spreading lies and distortions that have caused nothing but harm and death to multi-millions of God's children and in His name worst of all. 

Correct if I'm wrong.

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #2

Post by bluethread »

icetiger300 wrote:
After that, the restrictions of a mankind with mankind and sex with animals come in. 

The reason for that is because back then in the culture God was referring to, the Pagans would start off their fertility ritual with a child sacrifice. What would follow was an orgy, where the women, but most of all the men, would have sex with anything and anybody. But they were very careful to do it in a way that would not impregnate anyone, that was only for the woman they were married to. So, they would have sex with animals and anal sex with Galli priests, and temple prostitutes. 
If this context is to dictate, then would it also be true that there would be no prohibition against lying with an animal, except as part of a ritual to another deity? Mind you I am not equating the acts, just applying the context equally to adjacent verses.

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Post #3

Post by Kenisaw »

Fascinating info icetiger, I was not aware of a lot of the things you posted. Thanks for writing that.

I've never understood why anyone tries to use the bible as a reason for denying gays secular marriage licenses. Even if the bible is interpreted to mean that gay sex is forbidden (and in that context as it relates to marriage licensure it's almost always men talking about 2 males, whereas gay females never seem to enter the discussion), it is a moot point because there ISN'T a sexual requirement to a secular marriage license. Nothing has to be consummated for the licensure to be initiated. So whether the bible bans it or not, it's not pertinent to a legal union between two people in the eyes of a government entity.

Strayed from your OP a little, my apologies, but that's where my thought train ran.

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Post #4

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From the OP:

Until such time as one can reliably show they know the mind of a god they can't even show exists, it's nothing but pride and prejudice to carry on like said god ain't proud of this'n or that'n.

Whenever I hear folks tell of all how bad it is, the gay folks, I feel sad for 'em, being unable to accept their fellow human beings.

Conclusions?

If God hates gay folks, he surely can't be too proud to have witnessed his son cavorting around in a dress with a bunch of dudes all that time.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #5

Post by Youkilledkenny »

[Replying to post 1 by icetiger300]

I've found that the term SIN has been used a lot when it's not really appropriate simply to appease those that don't like something.
There was a time when the majority of people in a certain area thought inter-racial marriage was a sin. Now, not so much.
It seems that other than the original 10 items, things thought to be a SIN come-n-go as society evolves.
Besides, even IF something is a sin, and that concerns you, then don't participate in it. If you think wearing the color blue is a sin, don't wear the color blue and you're good!
Why we tend to interject our own convictions onto others amazes me.
NOTE: By saying 'you' I was referring to a general 'you'

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #6

Post by Yahu »

icetiger300 wrote: Then it takes a completely different turn, and tells not to give any of your children to be sacrificed to the Pagan god Molek. 

After that, the restrictions of a mankind with mankind and sex with animals come in. 

The reason for that is because back then in the culture God was referring to, the Pagans would start off their fertility ritual with a child sacrifice. What would follow was an orgy, where the women, but most of all the men, would have sex with anything and anybody. But they were very careful to do it in a way that would not impregnate anyone, that was only for the woman they were married to. So, they would have sex with animals and anal sex with Galli priests, and temple prostitutes. 

They fully believed that what they were doing pleased their gods and goddesses. They believed that it would bring all forms of fertility to them and their land, but they were not homosexuals sexuality expressing their love and attraction for one another, the vast majority of them were not even homosexuals. 
I am an expert on the ancient pagan sexual worship. I knew a high priestess of Ashtoreth many year ago that had recreated this worship.

First off, homosexuality was part of Molech worship. Molech worship was not only destruction of the offspring in heterosexual fertility worship but also the prevention of unwanted children through homosexual acts. The Tophet, 'place of burning' was below the Grove in the valley below. The heterosexual worship was on the 'high place' above the valley.

The valley of Hinnom is an example. The location of the sexual worship was chosen as a representation of the crotch of 'mother earth', ie Asherah. Two ridges came together with a valley between them. They represented the legs of Asherah. The grove was planted on the mound above representing her pubic hair. The grove was were the heterosexual worship was done with orgies, public sex acts with young girls and with Asherah Poles. The Asherah poles were standing carved tree trunks of various size as phallic symbols. The valley below by the sacred pool, represented the vaginal opening of Asherah and were the fruit of the womb were sacrificed.

Baal and Ashtoreth were worshiped in the Groves. The location was chosen to represent Asherah. The trees in the Groves were sacred to the pagan El, the father of the gods. The destruction of the unwanted children was in the valley below dedicated to Molech. All the Baalim were worshiped.

Young girls were recruited to 'play the harlot' in the groves. They would sacrifice their virginity and become a ritual prostitute having sex with strangers until they got pregnant. They would open them selves using larger and larger sized Asherah pole in public shows. Then the child they conceived in their time as a ritual prostitute was sacrificed the next year, probably on the holy day, one year later from offering their virginity. That is why most of the children found in the Tophet burials were 2-3 months old.

The teachings of the Baalim worship were that any sex was good sex, whether with strangers, or even homosexual acts. It was all about any sexual gratification. Love had nothing to do with it.

It was a way to destroy marriage. Women were made 'loose' by their activities and then had a child before they married. Men, in order to have a 'tight' woman had to visit the Groves to partake of a new prostitute.

Picture of the valley of Hinnom that shows how this represented the crotch of Asherah. Note the bare white stone at the top where the Grove once stood. It was cursed and now nothing grows there. The location was turned into a public toilet after the paganism was put down with the sewage flowing into the valley below.
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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

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Post by Yahu »

icetiger300 wrote: Now that is not Paul reffering to homosexuals, those people were Pagans engaging in idolatrous sex orgies. 
Correct if I'm wrong.
Actually Paul was addressing the Greek culture. I was stationed in Greece for a year and a half and understand the Greek concepts.

In Greece, the women tend to stay virtuous so young men turn to homosexuality. There are two forms. Some men ONLY give to other men and that is considered normal. The other form is a man who receives from other men. Paul is stating that BOTH forms are evil, both sodomy and homosexuality. The Greek term for a man that receives is the term Malakah (sp?) which gets translated as homosexual. It is interesting to note that is Hebrew for Queen. Note how it is even related to the spelling of Molech. Molech is MLK in Hebrew and is the word 'king' but uses the vowel pointing for the 'shame' pattern making it 'shameful king'. The 'ah' ending in Hebrew makes it feminine, ie Queen.

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #8

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by icetiger300]

The scriptures are quite clear, sexual activity between people of the same gender is unacceptable to the God of the bible.

Leviticus 20: 13 "“‘And when a man lies down with a male the same as one lies down with a woman, both of them have done a detestable thing. They should be put to death without fail. Their own blood is upon them. "

CHRISTIAN GREEK SCRIPTURES

Romans 1:26, 27 says: “Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also ABANDONED NATURAL RELATIONS with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men COMMITTED INDECENT ACTS WITH OHTER MEN.� Verse 32 continues: “Those who do such things deserve death.�
OTHER TRANSLATIONS
http://bible.cc/romans/1-27.htm

1 Corinthians 6:9, 10: “Make no mistake: no fornicator or idolater, none who are guilty either of adultery or of HOMOSEXUAL PERVERSION . . . will possess the kingdom of God.� (The New English Bible) Or, as the verse is paraphrased in The Living Bible: “Homosexuals—will have no share in his kingdom.�
OTHER TRANSLATIONS
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/6-9.htm

1 Timothy 1:9-11: "Law is promulgated, not for a righteous man, but for persons lawless and unruly, ungodly and sinners, . . . fornicators, MEN WHO LIE WITH MALES, . . . and whatever other thing is in opposition to the healthful teaching according to the glorious good news of the happy God." [/quote]
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

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Post by Talishi »

JehovahsWitness wrote: The scriptures are quite clear, sexual activity between people of the same gender is unacceptable to the God of the bible.

Leviticus 20: 13 "“‘And when a man lies down with a male the same as one lies down with a woman, both of them have done a detestable thing. They should be put to death without fail. Their own blood is upon them. "
That says God isn't down with two menfolk getting it on. He seems to have given two womenfolk a complete miss. I know Paul doesn't like it, he says so in Romans 1:26, but that's not the same as God not liking it.

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #10

Post by bluethread »

Talishi wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: The scriptures are quite clear, sexual activity between people of the same gender is unacceptable to the God of the bible.

Leviticus 20: 13 "“‘And when a man lies down with a male the same as one lies down with a woman, both of them have done a detestable thing. They should be put to death without fail. Their own blood is upon them. "
That says God isn't down with two menfolk getting it on. He seems to have given two womenfolk a complete miss. I know Paul doesn't like it, he says so in Romans 1:26, but that's not the same as God not liking it.
Another commandment says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery.", and there are penalties for rape. So, by that way of thinking, unending consensual orgies among people who have no marriage commitment are OK? OK, right? I know Paul doesn't like it, but what does he know, right?

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