Debating Christianity and Religion

I am a skeptic. I don't know if there is a god(s) or not.

The issue of sexual intercourse is a whole different can of worms, but when I fantasize about having sex with women i know, and without being too explicit, after I am "done", I almost always feel bad. Not necessarily guilty (occasionally), but just "bad." Just a few minutes before, the thought of doing something sexual with the girl I was fantasizing about seemed so hot and appealing. After I am done, not so much.

If there is no spiritual reality, why is this happening? Logically and intellectually, I see nothing wrong with me fantasizing about women I know. So then why do I feel bad afterwards?

What if there is a god, or gods, and it, or they, gave me a conscience, and my conscience gives me insight into what is morally right and morally wrong? And, fantasizing about women I know is morally wrong, either by design of god or the gods, or simply as a matter of fact, and so my conscience causes me to feel bad? I guess one question here would be: If it's morally wrong, why don't I feel bad, or at least as bad as I do after, before I get "done"? Why is the buildup great but then the aftereffects are bad?

Some of you may suggest it is because of my religious upbringing. So, if I had not been raised the way I was, would I not have this issue? Does this happen with other people who were not raised in a religious household? If so, to me, that would indicate that maybe we have a conscience and our conscience is telling us what we did was morally wrong. One note here: Even if people who were not raised in a religious household say they don't experience what I do, or say they do experience what i do, I cannot allow their claim to inform my intellectual positions and decision making, regardless of what they say, they could be an "agent of deception" (a spiritual entity disguised as a human and trying to deceive me) and are lying, or they could be human and are lying or are not very aware and are mistaken...Because of the philosophical problem of other minds, I can only go on what I experience.

agnosticatheist wrote: If there is no spiritual reality, why is this happening?

I can think of a lot of purely secular reasons why this is happening.

1. Social and cultural expectations (including religious influences)
2. Your are fantasizing about being with women you already a real non-sexual relationship with. That too can be problematic.
3. You are fantasizing about being with inappropriate women (i.e. women who are already in a relationship with someone else)

There's just a whole lot of sound secular reasons why you might feel bad about this afterward. There's no need to bring a supernatural concept into it at all.

Finally, I was originally going to say that this isn't true for everyone because at first I didn't think it was true for me. However, I typically don't have sexual fantasies about women I actually know. That tends to get in the way of reality.

I prefer to create entirely imaginary women in my mind. I may use a physical image of a real woman as visual stimulation to get me started, but I'm not really thinking of being with that woman. In fact, I can't even imagine that since I know nothing about her. So the woman in my imagination ends up being a total fabrication.

I also always imagine a mutually loving relationship. In fact, the emotional relationship is a huge part of my fantasy. Having sex just as a physical act detached from any emotional connection does nothing for me. So for me, it's really the imagined emotional connection that does the trick.

When I'm done having a fantasy I feel GREAT! And I also feel refreshed. In fact, I will often use this technique to rejuvenate myself on days when I'm feeling tired. I often do it more to re-energize myself than for the sexual pleasure. So for me it results in both a physical and emotional lift. Just the opposite of what you seem to be experiencing.

Also, on a final note: Both medical doctors and psychologists have concluded that having orgasmic release is VERY HEALTHY. And they highly recommend it for both physical and mental health. Being an unmarried man if I don't fantasize my way to sexual orgasm I'll be missing out on those health benefits.

So armed with this medical wisdom I actually participate in the art of self-inflicted orgasmic release quite often. At least twice a week, usually quite a bit more often than that. I've found that experiencing orgasmic release on a regular basis keeps me feeling much better than when I don't engage in this practice.

So I have no problem with it at all. I see this as something that is naturally beneficial and should not be withheld from people just because they never married. ]

So I don't see how your experience can be blamed on some sort of spiritual boogieman making you feel bad about it.

You may have some other psychological reasons why you feel bad. They could be legit, or they could just be induced by social and cultural beliefs and expectations.

I most likely would feel bad if I was imagining to have sex with someone's spouse. I don't do that because imagining that fantasy turns me off immediately anyway. So I never commit "adultery" even in fantasy. I also imagine that I'm with the wife I never had. So the woman in my fantasy is always my "wife".

So the precise scenario of what you are actually fantasizing about may play a role too.

By the way, I could hardly be an "agent of deception" because I'm not condoning your specific situation.

All I can tell you is that I actually feel good after having sexual release via fantasy stimulation. But then again, I never fantasize about women I actually know. So that's quite different from your situation.

agnosticatheist wrote:What if there is a god, or gods, and it, or they, gave me a conscience, and my conscience gives me insight into what is morally right and morally wrong?

Is this not the question in sum and if so, is it not a question you must answer for yourself? By faith which is an unproven hope? Do you think it is better to have a GOD who helps you understand morality (even with the religious baggage), or not? To accept that it would be better will be met with an invitation to actually put your faith in this being true...Does this hold you back?

[Replying to post 1 by agnosticatheist]

Americans, in general, are terrible with dealing with all things sexual.
It seems to come from previous and current religious persecution creating guilt.
It's sad.
Add to this, some people suffer from physical and mental ailments that may cause such things.
It's not likely one thing but a multitude of causes.

Thank you for your input, DI!

Divine Insight wrote:1. Social and cultural expectations (including religious influences)

I've thrown off a lot of those after developing critical thinking. Why should sex be any different?

If there is nothing wrong with me merely fantasizing about a woman, why is it bothering me? It shouldnt be!!! Lol

2. Your are fantasizing about being with women you already a real non-sexual relationship with. That too can be problematic.

Yeah. Why is that, though? I'm not actually having sex with them. I'm just fantasizing.

3. You are fantasizing about being with inappropriate women (i.e. women who are already in a relationship with someone else)

Again, why would this be a problem? I'm not actually having sex with them...

Finally, I was originally going to say that this isn't true for everyone because at first I didn't think it was true for me. However, I typically don't have sexual fantasies about women I actually know. That tends to get in the way of reality.

To each their own. I do better fantasizing about women I know. I have a hard time imagining a girl that is more than just a body. I need a face to go with it, and I am not good at that. Maybe with practice?

Plus, I think even when I succeed in creating girls, they just don't do it for me like real women do...

I also always imagine a mutually loving relationship. In fact, the emotional relationship is a huge part of my fantasy. Having sex just as a physical act detached from any emotional connection does nothing for me. So for me, it's really the imagined emotional connection that does the trick.

That's probably a good thing. With real sex, I'd much rather have sex in the context of a mutually loving relationship. With fantasies though, I like casual sex.

Also, on a final note: Both medical doctors and psychologists have concluded that having orgasmic release is VERY HEALTHY. And they highly recommend it for both physical and mental health. Being an unmarried man if I don't fantasize my way to sexual orgasm I'll be missing out on those health benefits.

Yeah

So I have no problem with it at all. I see this as something that is naturally beneficial and should not be withheld from people just because they never married.

I agree. So then why am I having a problem? Lol

By the way, I could hardly be an "agent of deception" because I'm not condoning your specific situation.

As I said, I cannot allow other minds' claims to influence my intellectual positions and decision making. You could be an agent of deception and trying to influence my intellectual positions even if your claims don't influence my behavior. I'm not saying you are an agent of deception, and I am not saying you are not an agent of deception.