Are homosexual relations sinful?

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Mithrae
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Are homosexual relations sinful?

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Post by Mithrae »

In Australia we're currently enduring a postal vote about gay marriage, and the Christian rhetoric which has inevitably been cropping up has reminded me of some thoughts I'd initially had back in 2006.
  • Tuesday, 9 May 2006
    It occurs to me that Christianity may very well have the wrong end of the stick in their view of God. If nothing else, surely what the old testament and the gospels teach us is that God is a covenant God. Jesus said that his blood was the blood of the new covenant; looking back, the Mosaic law is described as the old covenant; he made covenants also with Abraham and David. Perhaps we should not think of God as one who simply sits in the clouds handing out laws. Rather, he is a God who makes covenants with his people; fellowship in return for blessing. . . .

    With the people of Israel God made two covenants. The first was at Sinai, beginning with the ten commandments covering chapters 20 to 23 of Exodus. These are almost exclusively commandments of worship for God and social justice amongst the Israelites, with very little about sacrifical specifications or ritual purity. Chapter 24 describes the confirmation of this covenant and the people's agreement to abide by the terms written within the 'book of the covenant.' The second covenant was made in the lands east of the Jordan River, before Moses died and the people crossed over (Deuteronomy 29:1), and covers chapters 5 to 28 of Deuteronomy (with the earlier chapters being the preamble). Laws concerning such things as legal cases, the king, cities of refuge and warfare regulations (chapters 17 to 20) make it clear that this is essentially the constitution of the new nation of Israel.
The bible does not say that God gave any rules or commandments at all to Adam and Eve, except the bit about the tree; and similarly, Jeremiah clearly states that the new covenant to come would be "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt" (Jer. 31:31). In commenting on that passage the author of Hebrews writes "In that he says, “A new covenant,� he has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

How can it be that at one time it was "sinful" to sow a field with two kinds of seed, or wear a garment made of two kinds of cloth (Leviticus 19:19), yet Christians now would almost universally consider these to be silly and outdated concepts? Why did commands like that exist in the first place? I believe they were intended to ingrain into the Israelite people the concept of their separateness from the nations around them, to reinforce and strengthen their own national identity. But then, that same kind of practical purpose seems to obviously underlie the prohibition against same-sex relations too (or the exclusion of anyone who'd suffered genital injuries in Deut. 23:1): A small nation surrounded by enemies would likely need all its people breeding to maintain its strength. Crude and even cruel though those laws may have been, at least we might be able to glean a worthy intention behind them.

But the Christian concept of "sin" as it is usually expressed seems to be utterly blind to the fact that these were part of a covenant - an agreement - between God and Israel, one which the author of Hebrews declared to be obsolete. And according to Jeremiah the new covenant is not to be found in letters of stone or ink in a book; instead "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor or a man his brother, saying 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest" (Jer. 31:31-34). (See also my earlier thread Did apostles think they were writing the 'word of God'?)

Likewise Paul - though he himself remained hung up on homosexuality - captures the more individual nature of the New Agreement perfectly, even as he downplays the everlasting covenant of circumcision:
  • Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. . . .
    13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.� 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.


    Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’�
    12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
Have Christians got the wrong idea of "sin"?

And if the essence of God's will is simply that "You shall love your neighbour as yourself," as Paul says, isn't homosexuality one of the most obvious examples in which freedom in Christ replaces the situational rules of Israel?

An example in fact where Christian attitudes often seem to be almost the opposite of love?

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

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Post by bluegreenearth »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:45 pm
bluegreenearth wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:15 pm
Yes, all people are harmed in some way by the prohibition of homosexual relations.
I see no evidence of this.
No, it is obvious that you won't see evidence of this. The long-standing objections to every single argument you've posted or provided a link for remain unresolved, and you are compelled by faith to ensure those valid objections are never honestly evaluated. Therefore, I won't waste any more of my time on an attempt to reason with someone who is incapable of acknowledging even the slightest possibility of being mistaken in an unfalsifiable belief. It is tragic that you have adopted an epistemology that has eliminated any chance you might otherwise have at discovering if the reasons for your belief are unreliable. At least, if any of my beliefs are false, I'm willing and able to discover and acknowledge that possibility. Those of us who have been fortunate enough to discover where we were mistaken in a confident belief understand and value that discomforting experience because it provided us with the humility and opportunity to keep searching for a more reasonable belief rather than remain a slave to dogmatism. It is not only my choice to think freely in this way but my inalienable right. Any person, institution, holy spirit, or god that seeks to place conditional limits or restrictions on that right does not deserve my loyalty or respect.

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #112

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bluegreenearth wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:15 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:45 pm
bluegreenearth wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:15 pm
Yes, all people are harmed in some way by the prohibition of homosexual relations.
I see no evidence of this.
No, it is obvious that you won't see evidence of this. ...

I'm more than happy to examine ... {to quote you back to you} ...
bluegreenearth wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:15 pm... demonstrable [evidence] supported by the peer reviewed literature.
Just link to the reference you would like me to read and I'll certainly consider looking it through (If you can please summarize what you believe your studies /peer review literature is supporting not just list bare links that would be helpful, along with specific paragraph and page as per the usual standards of referencing. Thanks).




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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #113

Post by bluegreenearth »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:12 amI'm more than happy to examine ... {to quote you back to you} ...
bluegreenearth wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:15 pm... demonstrable [evidence] supported by the peer reviewed literature.
Just link to the reference you would like me to read and I'll certainly consider looking it through (If you can please summarize what you believe your studies /peer review literature is supporting not just list bare links that would be helpful, along with specific paragraph and page as per the usual standards of referencing. Thanks).
When the existence of your God or the reliability of Biblical interpretations are not presupposed, you don't need peer reviewed academic reference materials to comprehend and accept that the prohibition against homosexual relations has only one possible outcome:

There is only one possible outcome for heterosexuals who strongly believe homosexual relations are absolutely prohibited before they discover a family member or close friend is having a romantic relationship with another person of the same gender; and that is to experience traumatic emotional distress at the thought of a loved one rejecting God's law or being rejected by God. Heterosexuals who are compelled by their faith to belief homosexual relations are strictly forbidden do not have the option to experience neutral or positive emotions in that situation.

Meanwhile, the only possible outcome for the homosexual family member or friend is to experience emotional distress and potential psychological damage from the extreme disappointment and, in some cases, complete disassociation expressed by those family members and friends who endorse the prohibition. The option to experience neutral or positive emotions is not available to homosexuals who find themselves in that situation.

The only possible outcome for the heterosexuals and homosexuals who accept and support the homosexual family member or friend is to experience emotional distress from the intolerance exhibited by the people who are relentlessly encouraging them to endorse and implement the prohibition. The option to experience neutral or positive motions is not available to people who find themselves in that situation.

The only possible outcome for the homosexuals who commit to a lifetime of compulsory celibacy in compliance with the prohibition is for them to experience emotional distress and potential psychological damage from having to internalize the toxic and abusive message that they are exceptionally repulsive in the eyes of their God and inherently deserve to be deprived of romantic human companionship. The option to experience neutral or positive emotions upon the discovery of same-sex attraction within themselves is not available to homosexuals who endorse and implement the prohibition against homosexual relations.

So, as indicated above, I don't need peer reviewed literature to demonstrate that the only possible outcome of endorsing and implementing the prohibition against homosexual relations is for everyone to experience some type of harm whether it be emotional, psychological, or both.

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #114

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bluegreenearth wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:16 pm...I don't need peer reviewed literature to demonstrate that the only possible outcome of endorsing and implementing the prohibition against homosexual relations is for everyone to experience some type of harm whether it be emotional, psychological, or both.
Emphasis MINE

Well then I don't need peer reviewed literature to demonstrate that the endorsing and implementing of the biblical prohibition against homosexual relations is **not** of itself HARMFUL. I dont presume to say whether or not people's own adverse reactions to said prohibitions will cause harm to themselves or others.

It seems then, we both appear to be expressing opinion; although yours seems to be based on the assumption you know what everyone on the earth feels,


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Are biblical prohibitions on homosexual behaviour HARMFUL?
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HOMOSEXUALITY, HOMOPHOBIA and ...BIBLICAL PROHIBITIONS
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #115

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Can't see this. If you prohibit homosexual relations, you are de facto damaging homosexuals and their interests. No heterosexual I know (with the possible exception of Roman Catholic priests, monks and nuns) would put up for one moment with an embargo on the loving expressions of their sexuality. So why should homosexuals?

Best of wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #116

Post by bluegreenearth »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:48 am
bluegreenearth wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:16 pm...I don't need peer reviewed literature to demonstrate that the only possible outcome of endorsing and implementing the prohibition against homosexual relations is for everyone to experience some type of harm whether it be emotional, psychological, or both.
Emphasis MINE

Well then I don't need peer reviewed literature to demonstrate that the endorsing and implementing of the biblical prohibition against homosexual relations is **not** of itself HARMFUL. I dont presume to say whether or not people's own adverse reactions to said prohibitions will cause harm to themselves or others.

It seems then, we both appear to be expressing opinion; although yours seems to be based on the assumption you know what everyone on the earth feels,
Your response is not only illogical but completely disingenuous. All you've demonstrated is a willingness to sacrifice your own dignity and intellectual honesty for the sake of an emotional investment in a fallacious ideology. Should you ever decide to mitigate for confirmation bias and attempt to disprove your own position, the required evidence should still be there when you're ready to go looking for it. I'm not going to do that work for you, especially when you'll just mischievously spin the information in such a way to conform with your faith position. The reason I hold the position I do is because I make an effort try and falsify it but can't find the disconfirming evidence.

I feel nothing but compassion for you knowing how difficult it must be to defend such an absurd and destructive doctrine and the cognitive dissonance it imposes on you. You'll probably contend there is no such difficulty with your belief, but having once been someone who was also compelled by a biased attachment to a religious faith, I understand the obligation to keep up appearances. However, there is a way out, and the Secular Humanist community can help you discover the path to freedom if and when the time arrives.

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #117

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bluegreenearth wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:16 pm... the toxic and abusive message that they are exceptionally repulsive in the eyes of their God ...
Are you suggesting that is the bible contains such an idea? If so where? I feel confident (correct me if I am mistaken) you are not trying to suggest *I* have made any such claim.



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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #118

Post by bluegreenearth »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:30 pm
bluegreenearth wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:16 pm... the toxic and abusive message that they are exceptionally repulsive in the eyes of their God ...
Are you suggesting that is the bible contains such an idea? If so where? I feel confident (correct me if I am mistaken) you are not trying to suggest *I* have made any such claim.
No, that comment was not in response to anything you or the Bible specifically stated. Numerous homosexuals I've met explained to me that this is the message they receive from people who represent and endorse various denominations of Christianity. I've also encountered quite a few Christians who propagate that Biblical interpretation. Since the Christian God is apparently refusing to personally clarify what the Scriptures actually intend to convey regarding his perspective on homosexual relations and homosexuality in general, what authority do you or I have to declare which interpretation is the correct one?

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #119

Post by The Tanager »

bluegreenearth wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:10 amYour response is not only illogical but completely disingenuous. All you've demonstrated is a willingness to sacrifice your own dignity and intellectual honesty for the sake of an emotional investment in a fallacious ideology. Should you ever decide to mitigate for confirmation bias and attempt to disprove your own position, the required evidence should still be there when you're ready to go looking for it. I'm not going to do that work for you, especially when you'll just mischievously spin the information in such a way to conform with your faith position. The reason I hold the position I do is because I make an effort try and falsify it but can't find the disconfirming evidence.

I feel nothing but compassion for you knowing how difficult it must be to defend such an absurd and destructive doctrine and the cognitive dissonance it imposes on you. You'll probably contend there is no such difficulty with your belief, but having once been someone who was also compelled by a biased attachment to a religious faith, I understand the obligation to keep up appearances. However, there is a way out, and the Secular Humanist community can help you discover the path to freedom if and when the time arrives.
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #120

Post by DavidLeon »

bluegreenearth wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:16 pmSo, as indicated above, I don't need peer reviewed literature to demonstrate that the only possible outcome of endorsing and implementing the prohibition against homosexual relations is for everyone to experience some type of harm whether it be emotional, psychological, or both.
So what is your point? Couldn't the same be said for adulterers? Those who practice Bestiality? Pedophilia? Rape? Drug Abusers? Thieves? Murderers? Liars? What do you suggest? That those who adhere to the strict principles set forth in the Bible should abandon those due to political correctness? Wouldn't that lead to the same emotional, psychological harm?
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