Was Jesus Gay?

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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JJ50
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Was Jesus Gay?

Post #1

Post by JJ50 »

Jesus apparently had a specific disciple, presumably a guy, whom he loved,he never condemned homosexuality, of course there is nothing wrong with being in a relationship with someone of the same sex, so I wonder if he was gay? If it could be proved he was, I wonder how those Christians who are anti-gay bigots would react?

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Re: Was Jesus Gay?

Post #21

Post by Mithrae »

marco wrote:
Mithrae wrote: Based on modern prevalence there's basically a ~5% chance that he was a gay person who may or may not have been sexually active.
Of course this is a rather useless statistics to apply here, given that we are not simply looking at a random individual in society. There are factors in the biographies of Jesus that would lead us to alter the a priori probability, whatever that might be. Aside from this it is rather meaningless to apply a numerical value to an unmarried, Middle Eastern preacher who did not apparently speak of girlfriends and died, as far as we can gather, a virgin.
There's just no information on Jesus' sexuality, it's as simple as that. There were just as many women following him around and in his support network as men - probably more, given how unusual it is that they were mentioned (Mark 15:40-41, Luke 8:1-3) - and he allegedly didn't begin to preach until he was thirty. He could have been a family man for the sixteen years before that, and perhaps a widower. He could have been married to one of the women who followed him; Mary Magdalene is popularly speculated. He could have had little interest one way or the other, as is commonly assumed. But as I said, either way all attempts that I've seen to hype up some trivial detail or other into 'evidence' about Jesus' sexuality have seemed feeble at best.

Even Paul would provide better grounds for speculation - at least in his case we know that he chose celibacy and he's also the only New Testament author to explicitly condemn homosexuality - but as Bluethread has suggested trying to draw inferences merely from an absence of overt heterosexuality is a surprisingly parochial view to see.

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Post #22

Post by marco »

bluethread wrote:



Well, it doesn't make the De Vinci code questions go away either. Some of those people even argue that the disciple "whom Jesus loved" was a woman.
I didn't quote from a work of fiction but from the Bible. Questions arise from a variety of passages in the NT not from legends. If one wishes to pursue the claim that Jesus loved some lady then it might be hard to back this up using biblical quotes.

bluethread wrote:

Would you accept the argument that Yeshua, who supposedly preferred the company of men, indicating that He was homosexual, also had a secret child by a woman, with whom He was not at ease?
I might if sufficient material was produced to indicate this. I don't know of any. What divides us, dear bluethread, is my being swayed by what I see as evidence, and you rejecting it. On another day the situation might be reversed.
bluethread wrote: In other words, the only people worthy of The Name are those who take it in vein.
Your typo introduces an amusing barb - against drug addicts perhaps. Go well.

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Post #23

Post by Wootah »

bluethread wrote:
William wrote: [Replying to post 1 by JJ50]
If it could be proved he was, I wonder how those Christians who are anti-gay bigots would react?
They would find another religion.
Well, the proper response would be to determine why this was not addressed at the time. If homosexual relationships were acceptable, there would clearly have been social conflicts that would need to be addressed. The fact that such conflicts are not addressed in HaTorah or by Yeshua leads me to the conclusion that such relationships were not things that were even considered. Maimonides and others reinforce this view by stating that there need be no regulation on two men sharing a bed, because sexual relations are just not a consideration when talking about Jews. However, later rabbi's suggested that, given the influence of nonjews, it would be best if two men not meet alone.

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Hi Bluethread - Where possible quoting Maimonides would help. It feels to me like as if I said well Aristotle said it so there you go.

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Post #24

Post by bluethread »

[quote="Wootah"


Moderator Comment

Hi Bluethread - Where possible quoting Maimonides would help. It feels to me like as if I said well Aristotle said it so there you go.

Please review the Rules.

[/quote]

Since, this is on point, I hope it is ok for me to respond here. If we were discussing the sexual practices of Socrates, I would think, what Aristotle had to say about Greek customs would be germane. What Maimonides had to say does not settle things. However, as support for the argument that the lack of guidance on how to properly engage in a homosexual relationship indicates that such relationships would have been extremely rare, what he and the sages had to say with regard to the issue does have value.

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Post #25

Post by bluethread »

marco wrote:
bluethread wrote: In other words, the only people worthy of The Name are those who take it in vein.
Your typo introduces an amusing barb - against drug addicts perhaps. Go well.
Yes, that is a humorous typo. It would be good if it was just the opposite of my point. Those who do take Adonai's name in "vein" do respect the commandments and are subject to much criticism from detractors, while those who take the name in vain receive little or less criticism for their duplicity.

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Re: Was Jesus Gay?

Post #26

Post by bluethread »

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 19 by bluethread]

Where the HECK do you get your HaTorah?
You are always making stuff up about it.
If you are going to do things like that, please present your references.

In the meantime, kindly refer to Levitraicus.
I would have referred to Leviticus, if there were anything other than the commandment regarding, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman . . ." That is enough for me, but some others consider it too vague. For that reason, I pointed out that, if it is not a direct commandment against homosexuality, why aren't there any commandments regarding how homosexual partners are to treat each other, and why doesn't Yeshua address such issues. This argument, based on the lack of instruction, is reinforced by Maimonides and the other Sages, as I noted. There being no instruction regarding behaviors that might even be considered questionable until the middle ages, seems to me to support the view that, until recently, there was little doubt that the commandment in Leviticus is a direct prohibition of homosexuality.

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Re: Was Jesus Gay?

Post #27

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 26 by bluethread]

Dude, you have this bad habit of citing the HaTorah for things it does not say.
If you are going to cite it quote it.
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Re: Was Jesus Gay?

Post #28

Post by bluethread »

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 26 by bluethread]

Dude, you have this bad habit of citing the HaTorah for things it does not say.
If you are going to cite it quote it.
Maimonides and the other Sages are not Torah, they are Talmudic commentary. The commandment is from Lev. 20:13.

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Post #29

Post by Mithrae »

bluethread wrote:
Wootah wrote: Moderator Comment

Hi Bluethread - Where possible quoting Maimonides would help. It feels to me like as if I said well Aristotle said it so there you go.

Please review the Rules.
Since, this is on point, I hope it is ok for me to respond here. If we were discussing the sexual practices of Socrates, I would think, what Aristotle had to say about Greek customs would be germane. What Maimonides had to say does not settle things. However, as support for the argument that the lack of guidance on how to properly engage in a homosexual relationship indicates that such relationships would have been extremely rare, what he and the sages had to say with regard to the issue does have value.
I think the point is that you didn't quote or provide a reference, merely claimed Maimonides said such-and-such. After Wootah's comment I tried to find where Maimonides had said that, and after two minutes concluded that it would be utterly impossible to find :lol: However on Wikipedia I found that, quite contrary to your claim, "Chazal prohibited two single males from sleeping under the same blanket.[citation needed]"

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Post #30

Post by bluethread »

Mithrae wrote:
I think the point is that you didn't quote or provide a reference, merely claimed Maimonides said such-and-such. After Wootah's comment I tried to find where Maimonides had said that, and after two minutes concluded that it would be utterly impossible to find :lol: However on Wikipedia I found that, quite contrary to your claim, "Chazal prohibited two single males from sleeping under the same blanket.[citation needed]"
Sorry, I thought Willum was just concerned about the Scriptural reference. The rabbinic reference is from http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/homosexuality. I didn't think anyone was really interested in this detail. Well, here it is.

"To this end R. Judah forbade two bachelors to sleep together under one blanket (Kid. 4:14); but the view of the sages prevailed that there was no need for such a safeguard against homosexuality (Kid. 82a). Maimonides (Yad, Issurei Bi'ah 22:2) still followed the Talmud in holding that "Jews are not suspect to practice homosexuality," and therefore permitted two males to be closeted together. By the 16th century conditions had evidently changed to induce Caro, after recording this view, to add: "Nevertheless, in our times, when lewdness is rampant, one should abstain from being alone with another male" (Sh. Ar., EH 24). Yet, a century later R. Joel *Sirkes again suspended the restriction, except as a praiseworthy act of piety, on the ground that "in our lands [Poland] such lewdness is unheard of " (Bayit Hadash to Tur, EH 24)."

According to this, it was R. Judah who stated that prohibition. I mentioned that prohibition in my post. Maimonides stated, "Jews are not suspect to practice homosexuality," which was the point I was making.

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