Christian-Sponsored Hatred for Gays

[Jagella]

Do you support Christian hatred for gays?

I was inspired to broach this topic after reading a column in the January 2020 issue of Scientific American. The column written by the editors is entitled Time's Up for "Anti-Gay Therapy." According to those editors:

Although medical and psychological associations have asked explicitly that Congress and state governments ban anti-gay conversion (by Christians), there has been a backlash from (Christian) groups like the Liberty Council, which promotes "evangelical values."

The column condemns the "detestable practice" of the attempt by many Christians to alter a person's homosexuality because the practice does "irreparable harm" to people. Forty-two percent of a subgroup who have had this "therapy" inflicted on them have committed suicide.

[FWI]

The boy did not die because he was homosexual but because of the careless way he chose to live. Others smoke or take drugs or drive too fast. They too die.

Sorry, but we disagree again. He certainly died prematurely, because of being a homosexual. Unless, you are suggesting that being a homosexual doesn't include the act of sodomy, between two men…The general consensus is that HIV/AIDS is most prevalent among men who have sexual contact with other men. Where, heterosexuals are just as much at risk, if they also engage in anal sex and certain oral activities. The statistics claims that these two groups account for about 92% of HIV/AIDS cases. We also need to consider the bisexual individual. This should not be happening! So, because it does happen, it's questionable that homosexuality is programed into the genes. This suggests that homosexuality and other abnormal activities are a choice. Where, the claiming that being gay is genetic is incorrect! A new scientific study seems to support this. So, how do we deal with those who have HIV/AIDS and are bisexual, wanting it both ways, having sex with both women and men? This surely is a choice and the main source of the innocent contacting HIV/AIDS.

As far as, smoking and drugs are concerned, I agree that they kill as well. However, the medical field and other groups have strongly pushed for "abstinence" in these areas and it has helped save many lives! But, it seems that the same groups aren't as concerned about pushing "abstinence" related to sodomy, within our societies! Maybe, it has to do with activism and the pressure put upon them to solve the problems only and not to be judgmental like they do with smokers and drug users…

In the case I mentioned the mother was instrumental in destroying her son. I wasn't "trying to shift the blame"; I was duly according the blame to the boy's mother. She effectively killed him with her lectures from Leviticus.

I strongly disagree that Bobby's mother (Mary Griffith) was instrumental in destroying her son, even though she has convinced herself (or others have) that she was. I have done my research on the issue and fine some troubling concerns. Firstly, the idea that Bobby's mother would have given lectures from Leviticus, isn't that unusual because the laws within are solid. Laws are instituted because of problems that affect mankind in a negative way…This tells us that lives were being destroyed thousands of years ago, just as they are today, by the activity of sodomy. Yet, certain modern societies have succeeded in ending some important laws of old. Hence, what I've learned is that the main issue and motiving force behind the actions of Bobby's mother is that she believed that her son was going to hell, unless he changed. This would prevent Bobby from being with the family in heaven and that he would be eternally punished, unless he took a different course (which, by the way, is a false teaching). The fact that she made an effort, even though not completely by the ways of God and His Son, shows that she loved and wanted to help her son. Not, just for the present, but also for the perceived future.

However, Bobby Griffith didn't initially (or maybe not at all) reject the family's religious beliefs, because he felt trapped in the gay life style. When, he was 15 years old his revulsion toward his gay activities was a constant issue for him. This is a clear indication that he was active in sexual relations, earlier than 15 years old! So, who was he active with and what influence did these occurrences have on an 11-14 year old boy? It seems that nobody had addressed this valuable key to Bobby troubles…It is also clear that Bobby prayed and asked God to remove this curse from him. But, it seems that his patience was in short supply, which could be deemed understandable. Because, this boy was desperate to be rid of his unhealthy actions. Sadly, help didn't come soon enough or the path to help was rejected. Bobby left home and his problems only became worst, until he committed suicide.

Therefore, it seems obvious that there were mental health issues in this troubled story and maybe even predatory sexual contact with a minor…Which, could be the main reason, a young man's life was lost and not by his mother's desperate attempt to help him.

[Jagella]

Do you support Christian hatred for gays?

After a lengthy discussion, not one Christian here has openly opposed the Biblical mandate to murder men caught in a homosexual act. I consider myself lucky that I am free to oppose any such barbaric behavior. If I was a Christian, I would need to insist that murdering gays is "holy."

So you can have your Christian beliefs, or you can have a civilized morality, but you cannot have both.

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 141 by Jagella]

So you can have your Christian beliefs, or you can have a civilized morality, but you cannot have both.

Sure you can! You've seen it within these posts: people claiming to follow their religious book but also being civilized with morality (most times their morality is 'better' than yours).
It doesn't make sense
But it doesn't have to because they have their bible and their god that supports them
If their bible said apples eat elephants for lunch on the third Thursday of the month on Venus, they'd believe it.
And as long as they can initially justify it to themselves, that's all that matters to them.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 140 by FWI]

We also need to consider the bisexual individual. This should not be happening! So, because it does happen, it's questionable that homosexuality is programed into the genes. This suggests that homosexuality and other abnormal activities are a choice.

Your focus is on the activity of sex rather than sexual attraction. While one can choose to engage in any activity, sexual or otherwise, that is quite distinct from the innate desire to do so. Why does same sex attraction even exist? Have you felt any sexual attraction for people of the same gender as yourself? Do you feel that you could choose to feel sexual attraction for people of the same gender as yourself? If not, you should perhaps ask yourself why that is the case. Note how these questions do not relate to engagement in any sexual activity where there is clearly a choice involved. From a religious perspective, you have to wonder why God made same sex attraction even possible.

[Jagella]

So you can have your Christian beliefs, or you can have a civilized morality, but you cannot have both.

Sure you can! You've seen it within these posts: people claiming to follow their religious book but also being civilized with morality (most times their morality is 'better' than yours).
It doesn't make sense

I guess it makes sense if a person wishes to cling to the Christian hope of immortality while looking civilized. It's amazing how useful dishonesty can be in resolving conflicts.

But it doesn't have to because they have their bible and their god that supports them
If their bible said apples eat elephants for lunch on the third Thursday of the month on Venus, they'd believe it.
And as long as they can initially justify it to themselves, that's all that matters to them.

Holding crazy beliefs is up to the individual as long as those beliefs don't lead to injustices that harm innocent people. In the case of Christianity, beliefs often do result in good people being harmed.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to marco]

Human psychology is a complex matter. It is commendable if people try to offer counsel to those who are suffering or in danger of self-harming. But it is presumptuous of someone who is not homosexual to suggest a way of life to those who are. Talking to homosexuals is not talking to people with problems. People, both gay and not gay, have difficulties. Homosexuality in itself is not the problem. I have no idea how you can say "there are millions within the homosexual community" who are hurting. How do you know this? And what of those not in that community who are also hurting and contemplating suicide?

Here is the contention point in this discussion, is humanity all hardwired with the same morality?

If humanity is hardwared with the same morality like Christianity claims then much of the depression that we see today would be caused by man doing things that are contrary to this hardwired morality. The closer one lives to this moral code we are hardwired with the less depressed men would be. This would be mean the more one does not adhere to this hardwired morality the more depressed a person will become. This is shone time and again by the depression that is seen in the prison systems of the world.

This is also evidenced by the low success rate of psychologist when dealing with addictions. The second step in the 12 step program the must successful method of dealing with addictive behavior is: “We came to be aware that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.� The second step is to realize that there is a power that sets morality and when this morality is is not followed depression and negative consequences are what follows.

Yea, I think millions is accurate. There are 1.4 million that attempt suicide each year that are reported, with homosexuals being 5 times more likely to try, I do not believe millions is out of possibility at all.

Are there any who engage in homosexual activity not hurting? I am sure that there are those that say they are not hurting, but all of the statistics seem to indicate that the number that are not hurting are very few and far between.

That sounds rather judgmental. I believe gay people are fashioned that way. Many heterosexuals lead fulfilling lives, and experience life's problems. Many homosexuals lead fulfilling lives and why shouldn't they? They are most in danger when some well meaning person tells them to alter their brain. It is to be hoped that they have the strength to utter their defiance and be what they are without pretending otherwise.

What facts to you have to support your beliefs? Through the course of our conversations, there seems to be many things that I believe that you do not. Why would your beliefs seem to supersede somebody's else's? Since Marco states that this is his belief should we all just accept that as fact?

The facts are that homosexuals are not made that way. "Massive Study Finds No Single Genetic Cause of Same-Sex Sexual Behavior"

"But taken together, these five markers explained less than 1 percent of the differences in sexual activity among people in the study. When the researchers looked at the overall genetic similarity of individuals who had had a same-sex experience, genetics seemed to account for between 8 and 25 percent of the behavior. The rest was presumably a result of environmental or other biological influences. The findings were published Thursday in Science."

"Despite the associations, the authors say that the genetic similarities still cannot show whether a given individual is gay. “It’s the end of the ’gay gene,’� says Eric Vilain, a geneticist at Children’s National Health System in Washington, D.C., who was not involved in the study."

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -behavior/




Not all criminals try to commit suicide and yet the suicide rate of criminals and homosexuals is the same. That would indicate that the depression rate would be the same. Because we are created beings any activity outside of how we are hard wired would cause depression. Similar to any machine that is not used in the way that it was made to be used.

Alan Turing, one of the brightest men of the 20th century, committed suicide not because he was homosexual but because lesser mortals wanted to change him; what he felt was sinful, they said, and he knew he could not change. What a horrible position to put a lovely, intelligent human being into. We have been through religious stupidity guilty of many murders.

Here is how Christians across the centuries have endured persecution.

THE FORTY WRESTLERS
 
Long ago in the days when the ruling passion of the Roman Emperor Nero was the extermination of the Christians, there lived and served him a band of soldiers known as the "Emperor's Wrestlers."  Fine, stalwart men they were, picked from the best and the bravest of the land, recruited from the great athletes of the Roman amphitheatre.  In the great amphitheatre they upheld the arms of the Emperor against all challengers.  Before each contest they would stand before the Emperor's throne.  Then through the courts of Rome would ring the cry: "We, the wrestlers, wrestling for thee, 0 Emperor, to win for thee the victory and from thee, the victor's crown!"
 
When the great Roman army was sent to fight in far away Gaul, no soldiers were braver or more loyal than this band of wrestlers led by their centurion Vespasian.  But news reached Nero that the Christian faith, that seemed to know no bounds and which seemed to leap all barriers, had come among the wrestlers and many had accepted it.
 
To be a Christian meant death, even to those who served Nero best; so that this decree was straightway dispatched to the centurion Vespasian: "If there be any among the soldiers who cling to the faith of the Christian, they must die!"
 
The decree was received in the dead of winter.  The soldiers were camped on the shore of a frozen inland lake.  The winter had been hard, but the many hardships they had endured together had only served to unite them more closely.  So it was with sinking heart that Vespasian, the centurion, read the Emperor's message.  Yet to a soldier there is one word supreme - and that is "duty".  Vespasian called the soldiers together and asked the question:- "Are there any among you who cling to the faith of the Christian? If so, let him step forward!"  Forty wrestlers instantly stepped forward two paces, respectfully saluted, and stood at attention.  Vespasian paused.  He had not expected so many.  "The decree has come from your Emperor," he said, "that any who cling to the faith of the Christian must die!  For the sake of your country, your comrades, your loved ones, renounce this false faith!�  Not one of the forty moved. "Until sundown I shall await your answer," said Vespasian.  Sundown came.  Again the question was asked, "Are there any among you who cling to the faith of the Christian?  If so, let him step forward!"
 
Again the forty wrestlers stepped forward, and stood to attention.  Vespasian pleaded with them long and earnestly without prevailing upon a single man to deny his Lord.  Finally he said:- "The decree of the Emperor must be obeyed, but I am not willing that your blood be on your comrades.  I am going to order that you march out upon the lake of ice and I shall leave you there to the mercy of the elements.  Fires, however, will be burning on the shore, and at the largest, I, your commander, will be waiting to welcome any willing to renounce this false faith."
 
The forty wrestlers were stripped and then without a word they wheeled, and falling into columns of four, marched out towards the lake of ice.  As they marched they broke into chorus with the old chant of the Arena:"Forty wrestlers wrestling for Thee, 0 Christ, to win for Thee the victory and from Thee, the Victor's crown!"
 
All through the long hours of the night Vespasian, the centurion, stood by his camp fire and waited, and all through the long night came back to him fainter and fainter the wrestlers' song.
 
As it neared morning one figure, overcome by exposure, crept quietly towards the fire; in the extremity of his suffering he had renounced his Lord.  Faintly, but clearly, from out the darkness came the song, "Thirty-nine wrestlers, wrestling for Thee, 0 Christ, to win for Thee the victory and from Thee, the Victor's crown!"
 
Vespasian looked at the figure drawing close to the fire - and then out into the darkness whence came the song of faith.  Once again he looked - ah! who can say?  Perhaps he saw the greater light shining there in the darkness!  Off came his helmet down went his shield and he sprang upon the ice, crying,- "Forty wrestlers wrestling for Thee, 0 Christ, to win for Thee the victory and from Thee, the Victor's crown!"
 
And the number of God's own [overcomers] was complete.
 
- Good News Digest.

Christians have always understood that if they were choosing this to have faith in Christ and worship Him they were choosing death or imprisonment. That is what belief in something does. It makes one stand in the face of persecution.

Alan Touring knew the law and knew the consequences of breaking that law. If he believed what he was doing was right and good then he should have felt no shame in the sacrifice that he had to endure. Christians do not commit suicide when they are persecuted. Their faith in what they are doing is strengthen.

Alan Touring did not commit suicide because of the persecution Alan Touring committed suicide because of the sin in his life.

The kingdom (that is a land ruled by a crowned monarch) is a nonsensical metaphor. People have invented this nomenclature and it has absolutely nothing to do with gay people. It is anachronistic talk that might have made sense in Christ's day when superstitions were common.

Since belief is now being taken as fact, that is not what I believe. I believe that Christ is in control of all things right now at this very moment. In fact the universes very existence depends on God's continual input of power.

Nothing happens in this world without being allowed by the hand of God.

True friends do not wound. Telling homosexuals to try to "change" is not the mark of a friend.

Not telling a homosexual to try to change is condemning them to an early death. Who is the true friend? One who sees someone walking towards a cliff and tries to stop him. Or one that who sees someone walking towards a cliff and waves at him as he goes past saying. "Have a good trip."

Horace said: Carpe diem - seize the day; live while you can, for eternity is long and empty.

This would be another belief that you have. Eternity is long. But it is far from empty.

It would have been a brave man who approached Alexander the Great and maligned his sexual orientation.

But if there was a brave enough man in Alexander the Great's day he might not have died in his early 30's

[Bust Nak]

Here is the contention point in this discussion, is humanity all hardwired with the same morality?

Surely this is a non-starter. One does not need to look further than this thread to see the contrasting moral view on homosexuality.

Then there are the other contentious issue of this age: abortion and euthanasia. Look further back there is the issue of slavery.

Christians have always understood that if they were choosing this to have faith in Christ and worship Him they were choosing death or imprisonment. That is what belief in something does. It makes one stand in the face of persecution.

The strength of conviction is not a good thing in itself. Terrorists also have this "belief in something."

[Diagoras]

There are 1.4 million that attempt suicide each year that are reported, with homosexuals being 5 times more likely to try, I do not believe millions is out of possibility at all.

A cite for these statistics, please.

And have you ever considered that the views of people like yourself may be a contributing factor towards homosexuals feeling worse about themselves?

Are there any who engage in homosexual activity not hurting? I am sure that there are those that say they are not hurting, but all of the statistics seem to indicate that the number that are not hurting are very few and far between.

<bolding mine>

Opinion noted. Please provide evidence that you have studied all of ’the statistics’, and (in the interests of space), links to just a couple of the most recent, peer-reviewed studies that support your claim.

Christians do not commit suicide when they are persecuted.

An astonishing claim! We can agree that some people are Christian, and that a proportion of them are persecuted (to varying degrees). Have you priviliged access to worldwide autopsy reports or something?

Alan Touring did not commit suicide because of the persecution Alan Touring committed suicide because of the sin in his life.

At least make the effort to spell his name correctly. If you can’t even do that, it doesn’t inspire any confidence in your certainty about someone else’s private reasons for taking his own life (which incidentally is still disputed). What a very supercilious attitude.

I believe that Christ is in control of all things right now at this very moment.

Then do us all a favour and pray for world peace, an end to disease, crime, discrimination, and for greenhouse gas levels to reduce. For someone supposedly ‘in control’, he looks no different from... well, any other non-existent deity.

In fact the universes very existence depends on God's continual input of power.

Please provide a cite which has evidence for such a power existing anywhere other than in your imagination.

Nothing happens in this world without being allowed by the hand of God.

Seems like your god’s quite the extreme libertarian - allowing homosexuality to become more acceptable across the world. Perhaps he’ll even be able to change your mind about it - he’s supposedly all-powerful, after all!

Not telling a homosexual to try to change is condemning them to an early death.

Hang on - nothing apparently happens in this world without being allowed by the hand of God, so why do you need to push your nose into someone else’s business? If God wants them to change, he’ll make it happen, not you.

Eternity is long. But it is far from empty.

Opinion noted. Please provide evidence for what eternity will contain.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 132 by Jagella]

You're not answering my questions again! Please answer them: Why would you oppose addressing a high rate of suicide among gays as a threat to the public health? And why do you oppose society taking action to decrease any such high suicide rate among gays?

I did you just do not like my answer. You even quoted my answer to your question.


Quote:
You seem to think it is possible to decrease the suicide rate in the gay community.

I'm hoping that the suicide rate among homosexuals can be decreased, of course. Do you share my hope?

By the way, two of my brothers are gay. Both of them are law-abiding citizens, work full-time jobs, and are reasonably well-adjusted men. They don't seem to fit your image of gay men. Maybe they are exceptional cases, or maybe your image of gay men is distorted by your Christian prejudices.

No, statistics seems to indicate that the only way for suicide rate to decrease of for homosexuals to cease their homosexual actions. Maybe your brothers will beat the odds of the dangerous activity they are engaging in. But there is only one solution to the suicide rate in the homosexual community. It is unloving not to share with people the dangers of homosexual activities and the solution for homosexual activities.

You may call this "Christian Prejudices". But if someone would have been brave enough to talk to Alexander the Great about the homosexual acts in his life he might not have died in his thirties.

I assume you mean that gay sex triggers "destructive behavior." I'm not convinced that gay sex can have such an impact. Even if it does, therapy with a valid scientific basis may well help gay men to enjoy gay sex without any such side-effects.

This would be your belief. The facts indicate that it does.

Do you support an effort on the part of scientists to develop such a therapy if homosexuals can benefit from it?

It seems as if you are intent on asking questions like this so let me put it like this.

It would would be totally unloving to support an activity that hurts people's body, mind and spirit like all research says homosexual acts do. Why would I support an activity that has the same implications as supporting people to do criminal acts.

I'm in favor of treating any "root problems" that gays may have and not just the symptoms. I just want the treatment(s) if they are needed at all to be based on valid science and not the pseudoscience being pawned off by the religious right.

So which scientific study that I have sighted pseudoscience?

You can only accept this claim by denying the findings of the Trevor Project.

Yes I do because of the reasons I sighted. A twelve month study is not at all long enough to access anything.

One of the problems in your analogy here is that you appear to assume that gays and Christians are distinct groups. The reality is that many gays are Christians, and many Christians are gay. So your comparing the two groups is not a valid comparison. Heck, if Christians don't commit suicide under persecution, it could be that their being gay gives them the strength to carry on!

Christians would not be in favor of homosexual acts and they would be convicted of homosexual acts and warn people of the perils of the sin. What the Bible says about homosexual acts is no secret. Even the title of this strings declares the view Christianity takes on homosexuality. If anyone does not believe that the teaches that homosexuality is a sin then they are not a Christian.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Do not be deceived?

No doubt many of them were gay. So again, the comparison is not valid.

What? Do you have any documentation on this assertion?

And you are wrong if you claim that marriage isn't risky. It can lead to divorce! Not to mention domestic violence, rape, and child abuse.

Yes, it can. But the individuals in these horrible situation still do not commit suicide the rates homosexuals do. Domestic violence, rape and child abuse has been linked to homosexuality.

Because male homosexuals have usually been found to have poorer relationships with their fathers than male heterosexuals, and because children who are disappointments to their parents are more likely to be physically abused than other children, it was hypothesized that gays are more likely than heterosexual men to have been physically abused by parents. This hypothesis was tested comparing 17 gay male college students and 67 heterosexual male college students. Gay males were found to have been more abused during adolescence. Abuse was related to a history of childhood femininity, to having poor relationships with fathers, and to having engaged in gay sex during adolescence. A history of childhood femininity and engaging in gay sex may provoke parental abuse.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2751419


What is your source, and why is it trustworthy?
I sighted the source "Gay and Lesbian Medical Association (GLMA)

And if you want gays to avoid what is deadly to them, then to be consistent, you should recommend they avoid the Bible!

If they do not want to be convicted of their sin then yes they should avoid the Bible.

Christians screaming "God hates fags!" may well lead to destructive behavior among gays.

I am not sure if getting yelled at necessarily has to lead to destructive behavior. But one would have to wonder about the Christianity of those yelling these kind of comments also. Christians are to love their neighbors. Yelling "God hates fags" is not loving. A person can meet the needs of someone that they do not agree with without condoning their lifestyle.

I've seen Christians turn a blind eye to the Bible's horrors many times. It's the price we pay for their determination to get to heaven at all costs including the costs that others must pay.

What is it that you believe we are turning a blind eye to? Are you speaking of the judgement of sin in the Old Testament? Just like when a person is stopped by the police for speeding, the police officers has the right to give you a ticket or given a warning. Either way the person who was speeding is guilty. The sentence for their guilt depends on the officer making the stop. The penalty for any sin is death. But everyone is not dead so that means that God must be having mercy on many more than He is pronouncing judgment on.

Of course there are consequences for behaviors. Let's just make sure we find the real consequences for behavior and not what our religion tells us.

The consequences of homosexual activity is very well documented.

What you're claiming here is completely unreasonable. If homosexuality is so terrible, then it makes no sense for any man to choose to be gay! Can you choose to be gay? Is it some tempting sin for you? It isn't for me. I'm heterosexual, but I never chose to be. It just happened.

By the way, when I was a teenager I became bisexual for about two years. I was attracted to other boys. It didn't last. I never chose to be attracted to boys then, and I never chose to stop being attracted to them. It just happened naturally.

So you're wrong about homosexuality being a choice.

There is a difference between homosexual action and homosexual attraction. Attraction does not have to be acted on. Some one can see the money setting on the seat of an unlocked car and be tempted to open the door and take it. But they do not have to act on that attraction. A person can be attracted to a person who is not their wife, but they do not have to act on that attraction.

Most of the time attractions in the sexual arena come from the immoral thoughts that we allow ourselves to have.

[Zzyzx]

.

statistics seems to indicate that the only way for suicide rate to decrease of for homosexuals to cease their homosexual actions.

But if someone would have been brave enough to talk to Alexander the Great about the homosexual acts in his life he might not have died in his thirties.

The facts indicate that it does.[gay sex triggers "destructive behavior]

It would would be totally unloving to support an activity that hurts people's body, mind and spirit like all research says homosexual acts do.

Domestic violence, rape and child abuse has been linked to homosexuality.

The consequences of homosexual activity is very well documented.

Unless you provide verifiable evidence to substantiate each of these claims, they are nothing but conjecture / speculation / opinion.

Just like when a person is stopped by the police for speeding, the police officers has the right to give you a ticket or given a warning. Either way the person who was speeding is guilty. The sentence for their guilt depends on the officer making the stop.

Correction: A person is NOT deemed guilty when given a ticket (summons to court) or warning. Keep in mind, 'Innocent until proved guilty in a court of law'.

Police officers DO NOT sentence anyone to anything or for anything. That is NOT their job. Courts decide guilt (or not).

Civics classes seem to have failed to get this point across.