Chastity

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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Miles
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Chastity

Post #1

Post by Miles »


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The Bible says people shouldn't have sexual intercourse (sex) before marriage, and, in fact, deems sex so distasteful, even immoral, that god had to invent marriage to legitimize it.

1 Corinthians 7:1-2

1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote. It is well for a man not to touch a woman. 2 But because of the temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

So, for whatever reason, god finds sex pretty reprehensible, for which he provides only a single remedy, and one not fitting everybody. However, according to the most recent statistics I could find, of never-married 18-22 year-olds, on average 74% of Christian females and Christian males have had premarital sex.


Image
source


Now, considering god's stand on premarital sex, to me them's pretty daunting statistics. Chastity be damned, as it were. Stats I would think to be more fitting the non-religious.

In fact, as of five months ago "half of U.S. Christians say casual sex between consenting adults is sometimes or always acceptable."
source (My emphasis)



So, what do you think about chastity and sex before marriage? In time will chastity no longer be a concern of Christianity?

And what group do you fall into? O:)


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Re: Chastity

Post #21

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to The Tanager in post #18]
I see no reason to believe that one must experience premarital sex to know the possible good and bad consequences of it.
I suppose second hand knowledge is fine, but there's nothing like personal experience to teach lessons when possible IMO.
Neither do I think what's good and bad is up to individual interpretation.
Actuality would seem to show your POV isn't correct in a lot of things.
Hitler was doing what he did because he thought it right (aka good), even though most of the rest of the human race disagreed. If you play the percentages of 'good and bad' it would seem, universally, that Hitler was wrong (aka bad) in what he was doing. Still, the fact that he thought it was the right (aka good) thing to do shows that, at a personal level, good and bad can often times be a personal concept. And, outside of legalities, what one thinks as being 'bad' is immaterial to the one or ones that think it's 'good'.
Even when legalities are factored in, the one who did the legally 'bad' thing may still think they were right.
So, what reasons do you think good and bad is up to individual interpretation here?
See above example.
Additionally, what you believe I think it bad for you, but you don't nor do you care. And rightly so, because, if it's bad or not, doesn't matter to our beliefs.
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The Tanager
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Re: Chastity

Post #22

Post by The Tanager »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:46 amI suppose second hand knowledge is fine, but there's nothing like personal experience to teach lessons when possible IMO.
First, we are talking about the good and bad consequences of premarital sex. Those kinds of consequences (feelings of happiness, pleasure, heartbreak, disease, etc.) can be personally experienced through other means. Therefore, one who never has premarital sex does bring personal experience to bear when making a judgment about an act that has those same extremely well-evidenced consequences.

Second, there are plenty of things that I wish I didn't end up learning the hard way, i.e., by personal experience (rather than from what people and logic were telling me). There's nothing like it but thank God it doesn't have to be that way.
nobspeople wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:46 amActuality would seem to show your POV isn't correct in a lot of things.
I agree. I'm always willing to change my mind if good reasons are given to do so. Are you saying you are never wrong about anything?
nobspeople wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:46 amHitler was doing what he did because he thought it right (aka good), even though most of the rest of the human race disagreed. If you play the percentages of 'good and bad' it would seem, universally, that Hitler was wrong (aka bad) in what he was doing. Still, the fact that he thought it was the right (aka good) thing to do shows that, at a personal level, good and bad can often times be a personal concept. And, outside of legalities, what one thinks as being 'bad' is immaterial to the one or ones that think it's 'good'.
Even when legalities are factored in, the one who did the legally 'bad' thing may still think they were right.
I agree. However, you asked me if what's good and bad are up to individual interpretation. I don't think it is. Do you have reasons for me to change my mind? The above example is not a good reason. People thinking they are right is irrelevant to whether they are actually right or not. Me thinking 2+2=5 won't make it so.

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Re: Chastity

Post #23

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:51 pm
.

The Bible says people shouldn't have sexual intercourse (sex) before marriage, and, in fact, deems sex so distasteful, even immoral, that god had to invent marriage to legitimize it. ... So, for whatever reason, god finds sex pretty reprehensible,
The bible does not present sex as "distasteful" " immoral" or "reprehensible". God blessed the first couple and told them to reproduce which was a defacto blessing in their having sex. Sex is depicted in scripture as a delightful way a married couple can express their love for each other and experience ecstasy. Genesis depicts God as declaring everything he made as "very good", which logically includes his invention... sex.

Fornication, like child abuse and rape is a deviation and a misuse of one's sexual organs and Gods condemnation of such things should not be confused with a disapproval with legitimate sexual relations.



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SEX, SIN and ...WOMEN
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chastity

Post #24

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:36 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:51 pm
.

The Bible says people shouldn't have sexual intercourse (sex) before marriage, and, in fact, deems sex so distasteful, even immoral, that god had to invent marriage to legitimize it. ... So, for whatever reason, god finds sex pretty reprehensible,
The bible does not present sex as "distasteful" " immoral" or "reprehensible".
Obviously god doesn't like sexual intercourse among humans because he says, "It is well for a man not to touch a woman." (1 Corinthians 7:1). And because we know sexual intercourse isn't physically harmful, unhealthy, toxic, risky, or detrimental in any significant way, I can only conclude there must be some kind of moral, psychological, or blameworthy drawback to it. Now my guess is that god deems sex to be distasteful, immoral, and reprehensible. Image

But in as much as you disagree, what's your guess as to why he doesn't like it? Keep in mind that if you think he does like it, surely he would never have said "It is well for a man not to touch a woman."

Fornication, like child abuse and rape is a deviation and a misuse of one's sexual organs and Gods condemnation of such things should not be confused with a disapproval with legitimate sexual relations.
I don't know what your definition of "deviation" is, but my understanding is that "deviation" is:

"the act of deviating.
departure from a norm.
Statistics. the difference between one of a set of values and some fixed value, usually the mean of the set.
Navigation. the error of a magnetic compass, as that of a ship, on a given heading as a result of local magnetism. Compare variation Optics"
Source: Dictionary.com

See anything that applies to fornication? I ask because in as much as most Christians engage in it, it certainly isn't a departure from the norm.


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Re: Chastity

Post #25

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:20 pm

Obviously god doesn't like sexual intercourse among humans because he says, "It is well for a man not to touch a woman." (1 Corinthians 7:1).
I know you believe that, you said the same thing back on Tuesday August 11th last year.
viewtopic.php?p=1019596#p1019596

(Fornication "deviates" from biblical standards of what is right and acceptable to God.)
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Re: Chastity

Post #26

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:34 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:20 pm

Obviously god doesn't like sexual intercourse among humans because he says, "It is well for a man not to touch a woman." (1 Corinthians 7:1).
I know you believe that, you said the same thing back on Tuesday August 11th last year.
viewtopic.php?p=1019596#p1019596
And it bears repeating, doesn't it. Kind of like saying the Lord's Prayer :eyebrow: It never gets old or goes out of style.

"It is well for a man not to touch a woman."
"It is well for a man not to touch a woman."
"It is well for a man not to touch a woman."
"It is well for a man not to touch a woman."
"It is well for a man not to touch a woman."
etc.
etc.

(Fornication "deviates" from biblical standards of what is right and acceptable to God.)
And god sure doesn't like it does he, or any kind of sexual intercourse for that matter. Too bad he never said why. Best he can do is tolerate it in marriage. Suppose he would have been fine with it if A&E hadn't eaten the apple? Hmmmm.




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Re: Chastity

Post #27

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to The Tanager in post #23]
First, we are talking about the good and bad consequences of premarital sex.
That doesn't discount that many times, personal experience outweighs second hand experience. One big difference is the possibility of a life time commitment.
Second, there are plenty of things that I wish I didn't end up learning the hard way
Good for you. But you're not everyone else. While I appreciate your POV, and don't disagree entirely, it's not up to you or me to tell others how to live, what to think or where to exist. They must be allowed to make their own decisions (free will if you will). That's NOT to say we shouldn't be able to help them but, ultimately, it's their choice. Which was the point I made earlier.
I'm always willing to change my mind if good reasons are given to do so.
Great!
Are you saying you are never wrong about anything?
That's a baiting and uneducated comment which isn't valuable enough to receive any reply other than this.
Do you have reasons for me to change my mind?
I don't care to change your mind. I'm simply having a conversation. What you think (or don't) is inconsequential to me and my well being in every, single, solitary way.
People thinking they are right is irrelevant to whether they are actually right or not. Me thinking 2+2=5 won't make it so.
Math isn't human emotion and thought. Human emotion and thought is a large part of what makes humans humans. So while I could say your example is a 'nice try', I'm not in to telling false truths.
What you think is right or wrong is fine. For you. And likely for many. But it's NOT a universal truth, no matter how much you think it is.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Chastity

Post #28

Post by The Tanager »

Miles wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:20 pmObviously god doesn't like sexual intercourse among humans because he says, "It is well for a man not to touch a woman." (1 Corinthians 7:1).
God doesn't say that. Paul is quoting someone who wrote to him. That person said "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman." Paul disagrees with him. Paul tells spouses to not deprive each other of sex. Paul says some people should get married, while some should remain unmarried. The Biblical God is not against sex, He is against sex that damages us and others, whether that sex is within a marriage or outside of it. From the very beginning God said for people to be fruitful. That requires them to have sex. He said all that he created, including that command was very good.

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Re: Chastity

Post #29

Post by The Tanager »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:55 amGood for you. But you're not everyone else. While I appreciate your POV, and don't disagree entirely, it's not up to you or me to tell others how to live, what to think or where to exist. They must be allowed to make their own decisions (free will if you will). That's NOT to say we shouldn't be able to help them but, ultimately, it's their choice. Which was the point I made earlier.
And, as I said, I don't force my view on anyone. I believe in free will and that it is good that we have it. I share my thoughts for others to consider in their own exercise of their will.
nobspeople wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:55 am
Are you saying you are never wrong about anything?
That's a baiting and uneducated comment which isn't valuable enough to receive any reply other than this.
Do you have reasons for me to change my mind?
I don't care to change your mind. I'm simply having a conversation. What you think (or don't) is inconsequential to me and my well being in every, single, solitary way.
You can assume what you want of my motivations and attitude but it's not helpful for anyone. I was honestly trying to figure out what you meant by saying "actuality would seem to show your POV isn't correct in a lot of things." That's why I ask questions. I don't play baiting games. Assuming I'm being hostile isn't helpful to you, me, or others. I'm not saying you need to try to change my mind or that you should be worried about changing my mind. I'm saying I'm open minded and would love to hear reasons to change my mind. I don't approach this as a me vs. you kind of thing.
nobspeople wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:55 amMath isn't human emotion and thought. Human emotion and thought is a large part of what makes humans humans. So while I could say your example is a 'nice try', I'm not in to telling false truths.
What you think is right or wrong is fine. For you. And likely for many. But it's NOT a universal truth, no matter how much you think it is.
That difference between math and emotion or other kinds of thoughts isn't relevant to my point. You gave an example as a counter to my belief that what's good/bad is not up to individual interpretation. It wasn't a logical counter because that people think they are right does not make them right. That is true whether emotions or scientific theories or philosophical claims are the exact same thing as mathematical claims or not. Mathematical claims are one of the few things we can get 100% certainty on. We can't do so with science, history, morality, other philosophical matters, etc. So, yes, they are different. Yet, even in those non-mathematical areas, thinking one is right is not enough for them to actually be right.

You seemingly don't think there are universal truths in morality. I disagree. Do you have and want to share any reasons why I should change my view to yours for me to consider? I come here to challenge my views and for dialogue, not to simply share what my views are.

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Re: Chastity

Post #30

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to The Tanager in post #30]
And, as I said, I don't force my view on anyone.
To clarify, I wasn't saying you were, but making a point in general. If I accuse anyone of something, there will be no mistake in my wording.
You can assume what you want of my motivations and attitude but it's not helpful for anyone.
Thanks for your permission, but no where did I claim it was helpful nor did I claim my intent is to be helpful in anyway. Please read what's there and not what you
I'm not here to preach or educate or argue. I'm here to learn about people and have discussions with those people. want there to be.
That difference between math and emotion or other kinds of thoughts isn't relevant to my point.
I know it's not. But it should. That's the problem.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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