Generating Messages

William · Post by **William** » Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:51 pm

Hi.

I started this thread to share something which I find fascinating and would like some critique re the system I use to generate messages as I share these in this thread.

I would like to discuss the scientific value in terms of both subjectivity and objectivity to do with the way in which the messages are generated [to be explained] and perhaps how the reader interprets the message generated [assuming they see any message] and other related subjects branching from this.

I will also be using as evidence, the way in which words corelate with math, such as;

Generating Messages = 188
What Is Friendship
Story-Tellers

William · Post by **William** » Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:55 pm

Tanager: How does there not being anything outside of GOD make it impossible for GOD to create something new that is outside of GOD?

William I thought you agreed that there is no outside of GOD.

Tanager: An infinite regression is logically impossible.

William Not to GOD.

Tanager: Why not? How can even GOD do the logically impossible?

William How can it be logically possible for GOD to create anything outside of GODs self?
Furthermore, a simple code [The Mandelbrot Set] looped on itself produces a visual example of
- not only infinite regression but also infinite progression, so it is obviously not logically impossible.
More likely it is a case of being conceptionally difficult...but not logically impossible, as the Set gives us clear evidence of.

Tanager: The idea of Creatio ex nihilo is exactly the same as the idea of Creation being built from something that already existed.

William In other words, the thing that didn't exist before, was created from the stuff that has always existed.

Tanager: That is not creatio ex nihilo at all. The ex nihilo expressly means that it wasn’t built from something that already existed.

William But we know that it was built from something that already existed. GOD.

Theists would identify the energetic action as GOD [overall - regardless of religious undertones trying to superimpose their favored image of GOD onto the Energetic Action] and Thus we have Energy = GOD and QF [material] being another aspect of GOD [because there is nothing outside of or apart from GOD].

Tanager: No, that’s you identifying what we identify as something different in such a way. I see no reason to believe your identification is accurate.

William No. To be clear, I said "Theists" not "Theists who believe a particular image of GOD"
You have no apparent reason to believe my identification is inaccurate.
...

The answer of course, from the position of Theism, is "Yes - the Energy is intelligent."

Thus, "The Energy" is what theists refer to as "GOD."

Do you agree with my assessment?

Tanager: I do not. If “Energy” is something distinct from its typical meaning, then it’s less confusing to call it something like “spirit”. I believe GOD is spirit. The spirit is intelligent. The energy that makes up our universe is not intelligent.

William It is what it is. You are saying that energy is not the same as spirit, but clearly no attributes in both are different. One is just thought of devoid of intelligence while the other is thought of as not being devoid of intelligence.

Clearly, neither theist or atheist belief re that has proven itself, so the Natural-Neutral position is to understand that both/all labels re "Energy" and "Spirit" are speaking about the same thing, albeit, differently, depending upon the position one is speaking from.

Either the creative force is one of intelligence or it isn't.
_____________________________________________

060722
As there are relative truths, there are relative freedoms.

SCLx10 + select last LE per shuffle
The Story Timeline - Collective Soul - Multidimensional Beingness - The Enigma Code - An Elder Race - "The Message Generating Process allows for said Mind to speak for itself, and show itself to exist. As such, this is adequate evidence - the sort of evidence a sceptic calls for in relation to the subject of Intelligent Design." - Incredible Variants - Shine Your Light - "Opinion is that which has yet to be established as a matter of fact" - Do not allow the illusion of separation to rule one's behaviour -

AP= The Symbol of Love Temporary

[Mutual Dutiful Expression
Condescending Ideas About Imagination
Debating Christianity and religion
Don’t hide your Generated Messages
Imposed Appropriates Observed
The Symbol of Love Temporary]

RSP = SCLx2 + P&P + re

6:55

GM: He Who Waits ~
"Do not allow the illusion of separation to rule one's behaviour"
"The Symbol of Love
The Fine-Tuning argument"
Breakthrough!
"The Smallest Spark Can Start a Fire"
viewtopic.php?p=1069825#p1069825

William From the link;

William Firstly, let me thank you Diagoras for showing us exactly what lengths a non-theist will go to, to render a useful thing into a useless thing.

What do you think we are working to do here exactly? Build and then send a space telescope to a certain position a million miles away from the Earth?

[Search: How many people work on the James Webb telescope?
NASA estimates that 10,000 people have worked on the mission...]

Keep it simple. All we are trying to do is allow opportunity for interactive connection to happen between the individual and The Universal Mind, as a means of providing evidence that there is indeed such a mind.

Keep it simple.

GM: Is the mind a construct of consciousness?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... tcount=918

William From the link;

xjx: If I just look at the generated portion of the messages, all I see is randomly put together phrases. Now, if I put some effort and got creative, I could find a way to tie them all together into some semblance of coherence.

WilliamThus, it is established that as long as GMs are coherent, they can be interpreted. Only non Coherent GMs are unable to be interpreted.

Example of none coherent GMs which first have to be decoded before any interpretation is possible:

CODE SCHOOL: TOP SECRET COMMUNICATIONS DURING WWII

Which is why I am skeptical when folk tell me they see no coherency in the GMs I present.

GM: Heart Teachers
”‘Hey presto!’ Stuff just gets worse!
While We All Wait....”
Radical compassion
"Shining light
Success
Antic"
Journey to wholeness
"Choose What to Pay Attention To"
viewtopic.php?p=1037619#p1037619

William From the link;

Lately some of us have been arguing from three differing positions is which the bible can be used to defend all three. All three appear to agree that each individual has a "Soul" although there may be disagreement on what the exact function of a "Soul" is.

[1] A "Person" is "Spirit" and temporarily exists as a human being until the body dies then that "Person" enters an afterlife and is judged by "God" and is condemned or saved. Those saved go to "heaven" and those condemned go to "Hell" - or in some variances on this, are "exterminated".

[2] A "Person" a "Human being" and when the human being dies, that is the end of that person unless "God" judges them as "saved" in which case that person is resurrected and given a new body which will last forever more.

[3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase.

Often any different position which opposes another might logically mean that they both cannot be correct, assuming one or the other is true.

Both [1]&[2] fall into this category as they cannot both be true. [1]&[2] also both agree that [3] is false.

However, [3] Can be true without making the other two false.

And [3] - just as with [1]&[2] can be backed by the bible, depending on what parts of the bible one uses to do so.

The bible is interpreted throughout, based upon which position [1][2] or [3] is being used to interpret it through [the filter].

If [1]&[2] oppose each other but can still be "proven" by using the bible, then this makes the bible something of a contradiction.

But if [3] - although different from [1]&[2] does not oppose either [1]&[2] and can still be "proven" by using the bible just like [1]&[2], then [3] takes away the contradictory aspect of the bible which [1]&[2] create by being in opposition.

Question: Would it be fair to say therefore, that [3] is the best position to assume on the overall biblical script to do with the subject of the next phase [afterlife]?

GM: The sort of evidence a sceptic calls for in relation to the subject of Intelligent Design.
Act With The Situation Rather Than Against It
Inner critic
“I do not exist to troll for any religious idea of "GOD"”
"Down through the ages - dark in the gloom Many convinced it will all end in doom The Galactic Garden is forever in bloom"
viewtopic.php?p=1081499#p1081499

William From the link;

If we examine the idea that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain - a fundamental argument of the atheist position, because it does away with the necessity of their being a Creator-being involved in the unfolding process of this universe, how does Agnosticism work with that idea?

Emergence theory has become a necessary part of the atheistic creed to maintain support for the argument deriving from lack of belief in gods. The hard problem of consciousness is 'solved' for the atheist.

Why Agnosticism is more reasonable than Atheism, is because an agnostic can entertain other ideas which are not suppressed by the notion of emergence, and thus are free to explore as possibilities, re the same hard problem of consciousness.

For example, Agnosticism allows for the notion that the Planet Earth could act like a brain, as can the Milky Way Galaxy, and indeed, the whole universe.

So if someone were to pitch the idea that the whole universe might function as a brain, an agnostic can take that idea and compare it with the idea that consciousness is emergent of brains, and accept that it would therefore be possible that consciousness emerged from the activity of the universe-brain.

This idea can then embrace aspects of Theism as well, given Theism went the other way, and thought of the universe as being emergent of consciousness, generical referred to as "GOD"
[I am using capitals to distinguish between "God" as Christians refer to their idea of this universal consciousness and the more expansive idea of a Cosmic Mind.]

Agnosticism can therefore combine the two [supposedly] opposing concepts with relative ease, and from this accept as possible, the notion that the universal mind is a product of the universal brain.

Within this notion, it can be accepted through Agnosticism, that through the emergence of this Cosmic Mind - it may have developed self awareness, long since adapted to its predicament and proceeded to take over as it learned how to uses its existence to influence and shape matter at the fundamental Quantum level.

This in turn, also lends itself to the Theistic position, as there is plenty of time for such to take place whereby the Cosmic Mind could have worked out how to create biological life forms on this Planet.

GM: Benefit of the Doubt
One can commune with the gods as long as the overall subject is God

Anterior Commissure [a white matter tract (a bundle of axons) connecting the two temporal lobes of the cerebral hemispheres across the midline, and placed in front of the columns of the fornix. ]
"All systems go!"
Feel The Fear And Do It Anyway

William Thrills and spills...

GM: That is Correct
Between
Remember/Memories
"The picture unfolds like silk in a loom Silhouetted by Diane are the witch and the broom If she is the bride - who is the groom?"
Process
Precipitate [cause (an event or situation, typically one that is undesirable) to happen suddenly, unexpectedly, or prematurely.]
viewtopic.php?p=1070048#p1070048

William From the link;

Try a little Kindness

"Any God-Mind claiming to be responsible for human beings existing, is going to have problems to deal with re that"

William: Morning has broken...is there kindness motivating some acts of the Mind of Nature which are considered to be 'evil' by many humans?

It is neither good nor evil - Emergent - The World Wide Web - Before The Beginning - Worry/Anxious - We have discussed - Consider This - The Shadow - Christ

AP="That is because every day, I am adding to the data - and it is a slow and sure process."

That is because every day, I am adding to the data - and it is a slow and sure process = 717
It has yet to be demonstrated that nature is NOT the expression of a god. = 717

GM: If You Must Believe - Believe This:
"Tickling The Dragon's Tail
Just Be - All Else Will Follow"

"Despite all the dangers, Hess lands safely"
viewtopic.php?p=1073457#p1073457

William From the link;

GM: Animistic
Perhaps we can deconstruct some of these pernicious views.

William: It would be a step in a better direction than the one humanity is currently projecting.
The shame we carry about being the human animal does have its reason for being, but we have to - as individuals - rise above the shame and understand the fuller picture - what was done was natural enough and can be forgiven in that context but without the forgiveness, there are only repetitive patterns of shame based expression into the shared reality.

GM: ~Ooky Spooky
Inner critic~
Destination

William This would be in line with how some folk experience alternate realities. There is a connection between how one behaves as a "Self" through how one sees oneself, and spooky [frightening] experience had by those who report them.

GM: Temporary
Vagitus [a new-born baby's first cry. 2. the crying or screaming of any baby or small child.]
"The Double Slit Experiment
Proven"
The Hierarchy
https://forum.philosophynow.org/viewtop ... 10#p578410

William From the link;

Machines and morality

William: The simplest explanations for why we are here and what we are doing...

“Beyond our ‘ape-brained meat sacks’: can transhumanism save our species?”

The unreasonable effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences...

Does;

[The hard problem of] Consciousness + The [biological] Human form = the co-creation of transhumanism [as an evolving science with a particular purposeful motivation]?

(Will morality be necessary, should this vision evolve into this reality?)

IF:
Consciousness + The [biological] Human form = the co-creation of transhumanism
THEN:
Should it be understood that any purpose which might be involved from the perspective "we exist within a creation" to do with the creation of the Human form, have to do with taking things a step further [re transhumanism].

iow "Did GOD create the Human form for the purpose of the consciousness co-creating through the Human form, to eventually be able to create non-human form [not strictly biological re transhumanism] in which to experience this universe through?"

NOTE:
By the use of the word "GOD" I am not referring to any religious image of said entity, but the overall generic meaning, re Theism as a whole.

GM: Nothing More - Nothing Less

William From the Natural Neutral position, the unfolding story of humanity [warts and all] have to do with the devices they create as a means of understanding and manipulating their environment.
To what end? Best I can tell - to make use of the situation they find themselves within, building device for various purposes which help them to overcome the limitations nature places upon them...thus transhumanism is a Natural part of said process...as surely as the devices created as from the materials of Nature.

GM:Putting My Finger On It:
"Most folk need moderating.
Keep an Eye On"
"Connect
Centre of Learning"
"Catching up
Joyful
Future Self"
viewtopic.php?p=1083338#p1083338

William From the link;

William Point being, we don't know.
Bust Nak: And yet that doesn't stop you making grandiose claims about time itself ending.
William I made no such claims. I stated that time is a construct of the mind and does not physically exist.

GM:"Of The Human Being
Eigengrau
Everything Gets Old"
[The Fine Art of Not Being Offended
A Bit Of Cat And Mouse]
Victim/Vampire Energy Exchange
"To Experience All That Is
A Beautiful Song"
For the benefit of all beings
"The only thing the Holy Ghost is unable to forgive, is that which individuals are unable to forgive of themselves"
Learn Well
Sweet Vibrations

7:36

William · Post by **William** » Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:11 pm

About Time.
Any reality has to be experienced before it can be known what is and what is not - fundamental - about it.
The confusion obviously has to do with thinking that the passing of time [which is believed to be fundamental to the position of the human mind experiencing this universe]therefore, has to be fundamental to the universe itself.

Since we know that the human mind is a secondary rather than a fundamental aspect of this reality, and we know that time is a construct of the human mind, we can understand therein, that time is not fundamental to the universes existence.

Therefore, we know that when someone say's "time will tick on forever because the universe will go on forever", they are superimposing a non-fundamental onto a fundamental. Whether proclaimers recognize this is what is occurring, or not, such a saying is not strictly true, but simply type of romantic/symbolic representation clinging onto the wake of the fundamental...wanting to be part of it forever.
____________________________________

070722
The blurry line of the neutral zone

SCLx14 + select last LE per shuffle
What Is Our Purpose? - To - Map Carvers - Hacking through the subconsciousness - Yam - Though the Serpent rules the Shadow - The Fare On The Table - Witty - The importance of this system is also in that it uses scientific process to validate ones subjective experience - You may be Psychic, not mentally ill. - Allowed - The Message Generating system provides the individual with ways in which to scrutinize, adopt, and adapt as called for. - Ripple Effect - Joy

AP= Beyond Belief Recovery
[Without Judgement
Freedom in The Knowing
I will leave that there
Tired of the Nonsense
Thoughts and Forts
Staying up all night
Batten down the hatches
What matters most
Sad Room to Explore
Beyond Belief Recovery]

RSP = SCLx2 + P&P + re

7:45

GM: Eat Sceptics For Lunch
Each Morning
"To bring what one is not conscious of, into one’s conscious awareness - We don't know enough to close any door and leave those rooms unexplored..."
Live With
External validation
The wisdom of insecurity
The rider
The Dolphins And Whales
Inner Peace
Remaining
Yogi
Planet Earth is a prison
“Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail”
"Joy
Beyond Belief"
What Is Normal
The Main Points On The Agenda
“Our wounds are often the openings into the best and most beautiful part of us.”
"Act the giddy goat
Shamed"
Raises Glass To A Toast:
"All Is As It Should Be As It Changes Day To Day
Persevere"
"Life is scary then you die of it... is that really living?"
In The Rabbit Hole
Instant Manifestation
viewtopic.php?p=1070608#p1070608

William: From the link

Search "prophecy"
a prediction of what will happen in the future.
William: Nothing there to indicate any reusable quality. What is indicated is that prophesy is clear on the details [what WILL happen/not open to interpretation] rather than abstruse [what requires 'interpretation' by those who happen claim to have inside information - something which the title "Witness" does imply] although it is a matter of fact that most, if not all alleged prophecy lends itself to having to go through being 'interpreted' as - is it ever the case that actual clear details are part of any alleged prophesy?

GM: Aligning With
"Seeing With The Eyes of Innocence"
[You Do It]
viewtopic.php?p=1083858#p1083858

William: From the link;

William: If a construct of the mind is not fundamental to reality, then we ought not pretend that it is.

[Replying to Bust Nak in post #683]

Quotes about the non-fundamental thing we call 'time'.

Time is a prime conflict between relativity and quantum mechanics, measured and malleable in relativity while assumed as background (and not an observable) in quantum mechanics. To many physicists, while we experience time as psychologically real, time is not fundamentally real.

According to theoretical physicist Carlo Rovelli, time is an illusion: our naive perception of its flow doesn't correspond to physical reality. Indeed, as Rovelli argues in The Order of Time, much more is illusory, including Isaac Newton's picture of a universally ticking clock.

Time seems to follow a universal, ticktock rhythm. But it doesn't. In the Special Theory of Relativity, Einstein determined that time is relative—in other words, the rate at which time passes depends on your frame of reference.

What causes time?
By our definition time is the presence of motion and forces and is caused by the expansion of space also the amount of motion and forces in form of potential and kinetic energy imparted by expanding space is constant so when a mass is accelerated as the linear velocity of the mass increases the circular orbital motion ...
[Fundamental = forming a necessary base or core; of central importance.]

What necessary role would time have played, since it is a biproduct of the core ingredients Energy and Matter.

It is all very well taking something which is secondary and attempting to elevate it to a more prominent position re the original beginning of this universe - but to do so means one has to turn a blind eye...[or provide the evidence to support the theory.]

Time is not a fundamental property of reality. It is a symbolic representation of a construct of the mind.

How would you know that, if you don't know what time is fundamentally?
I know that time is not a fundamental aspect of Energy + Matter, as I know that time is fundamental to the human mind as a means of the mind getting its bearings - secondary in nature, not fundamentally to nature.

I do not know whether Energy and Matter are two separate things which interact and create shapeform, or whether they are aspects of the same thing, interacting with itself and creating shapeform.
I also do not know if Consciousness is fundamental to that process, but I do know that human consciousness is not.

I mention consciousness because I know that without consciousness, time would not even be recognized as a secondary [non-fundamental] aspect of this reality.

GM: Trick
The Masks and the Costumes
What Are Your Thoughts On The Subject...
"Holy Matrimony!
Stay in the moment!"

William:

GM: Phantasma [a perception of something that has no physical reality; of the mind;]

William: Pretty much, yes. Time is not physically real. It is a product of phantasma.

GM: Mystery
Recovery
Egalitarian [favors equality of some sort: People should get the same, or be treated the same, or be treated as equals, in some respect.]
Panspermia:
"Well...Maybe..."
Episteme [philosophical term that refers to a principled system of understanding; scientific knowledge.]
Positive self-talk
Duality.
Builder:
"Light is information"
Appreciating You
Telling the future
Exploring
The Data of Demystification

8:04

William · Post by **William** » Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:49 pm

080722

Room to move - things to explore...
The information content of nature

SCLx16 + select last LE per shuffle
Hand In Hand - Unconscious - Flowery - “You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose” - Cyborg Anthropology - I am not here to judge but to help sanction each individual - Stubborn - The Spiritual Essence - What survives to the next round - Elementary Conclusion - Micro Reflections of a Macro Reality - The characteristics of narrative consciousness - Invite The Bee To Land - Hellish - The Sun - There Is More To The Silence Than Meets The Ear

AP= Nature being the very instigator Tied To The Moon
[Selected from the invisible realm of the mind, and "presto!"]

RSP = SCLx2 + P&P + re

7:27
GM: The Spiritual Essence
Observed by Many
"Cats Whiskers." [very appealing]
The Fare On The Table
The Next Step
https://futurism.com/astrobiologists-ea ... WsMOmGhBkY'
"Celebration
Great Humour and Enjoyment"
Doubt

William: Yes - I used this technique recently - when I needed sleep during the afternoon, due to nearby construction noises in the 'hood.
The rain itself was noise but, noise close to nature - close enough that I could engage with it as helpful in assisting with my need to sleep.
My experience [opinion of] was that it is adequate to the task, although the sleep was broken every 15 mins or so, the pattern was up and down rather than uninterrupted.

Natures noises are often calming, but always sleep with one eye open

GM: There Is More To The Silence Than Meets The Ear
Nature being the very instigator
Wisdom
Still
The Shaping Of Reality
viewtopic.php?p=1073457#p1073457

William: From the link;

William: As far as the evidence goes, the idea we are currently within some type of Holographic Experiential Reality Simulation isn't so far fetched as to be off the table...

Seeds: I like what you're saying there, VVilliam, however, I'm not a fan of the word "Simulation" when it comes to the workings of the universe.

"Illusion," yes. But "Simulation," not so much.

A "Simulation" of what?

William: I have seen this complaint before seeds, and it caused me to pause and reflect if that is the correct word to be using.

That is why I call it a 'reality simulation' as it is simulating a reality which can be experienced as real.

More to the point, whatever is experiencing it as real has to be conscious, so the only real thing in the whole HERS are the consciousnesses which are experiencing it.

If any illusion is going on regarding that, it is the idea that consciousness is the illusion and the universe is the real thing, which is the basic tenet of emergent theory and the overall message supporters of that theory, preach....

[SOURCE]

040422

The debate between theists and atheists
...because death comes a-knockin' eventually...

GM: Cultivate
"I'm Okay With That"
Self-discipline
WindBlown
Different ways of supporting the same objective.
Knowing
Nature

William: Indeed. If it could be seen as a natural enough occurrence, forgiveness can replace the shame of it all.
Or - said another way - "Our wounds are often the openings into the best and most beautiful part of us."
The idea of cultivating the thought "I'm Okay With That" to the point of being able to forgive "that" is equal to "knowing nature". It is not saying one is "okay" with something which is obviously pernicious but rather in doing something which is counter-destructive...

GM: "Error Correcting Codes
Put That Fire Out"

William: Recalibrating how one thinks = "Error Correcting Codes"

GM: Sounds
viewtopic.php?p=1082466#p1082466

William: From the link;

GM: Knowing:
"I think it was an ambush or surprise attack" - Aye...A name I call myself.
"This statement is true but cannot be proved"
Understanding the mind behind creation which is commonly referred to as "God"
Expansiveness

William: Self-realization...Militant messiah

GM: Ignore the Noise From The Peanut Gallery

William: and the noise from the chainsaw just starting up next door...

GM: "Precognitive [having or giving foreknowledge of an event.]
Happiness
Subconscious
Overall"
Coordinate Forgiveness
Potential
Called To Order
"A Space Without A Time..."
Plan
viewtopic.php?p=1083234#p1083234

William: From the link;

If we do not know what something fundamentally is, but still refer to it as existing, it is conceptual in nature and of the mind.
Things of the mind are fundamentally unknown. They act as devices which also happen to assist us in understanding the physical universe.

So we use the concept of time, not as a means of understanding what time is [fundamentally] but how it relates to the physical universe.
[Replying to Bust Nak in post #663]

So time itself, as opposed to our concept of time, can physically exist?
How can time physically exist?

Does the mind physically exist? Is consciousness a physical thing that you can hold in your hand?
Is time something you can pick up off the floor and place on the table?

You said time cannot tick on forever.
I said that time is a pointless concept in relation to forever.
What is doing the 'ticking'?

GM: Existence
"Tracks in the Snow"
Apparent Contradictions in Relation to Biblical Beliefs
Produce/Make
[Without Judgement]
Phantasma [a perception of something that has no physical reality; of the mind;]
Metaphysics [branch of philosophy that studies the fundamental nature of reality, the first principles of being, identity and change, space and time, causality, necessity, and possibility.]
"Stay The Course"
Realisation:
"Turbulent"

William: From the link

There is an ancient story.. one that exists far beyond what we are told. A re-occurring theme in many ancient cultures and narratives all over the world. If this is indeed true, what does it mean for humanity?

GM: [Taps just above glabella]
"Collective Dynamics
Cease to exist"
Acceptance
Moon
Loving-kindness
Tied To The Moon
"We were not conscious of being a human for a time, but this does not mean that consciousness wasn't there.
The Nature of Angels
See the Signs"
"Choices
Reminding one of how it all started and the different stages one goes through."
Galaxies are like Islands...
Sweet Vibrations
How Can We Know
Around The Campfire?
Callum's Seventh Point
Timelessness vs infinite regress argument

William: Yes... a recent [and ongoing] conversation between Tanager [creator of the "Callum character] and myself;

William: I thought you agreed that there is no outside of GOD.

[Replying to The Tanager in post #685]

I said there was nothing outside of GOD and then this GOD created a distinct thing that was, in the very act of creation, outside of GOD.
How can it be logically possible for GOD to create anything outside of GODs self?

Where is the logical contradiction? We can’t have a square circle because of what “square” and “circle” mean. How does “create” logical contradict “something outside of GOD”?
Something "outside of GOD" contradicts "no outside of GOD."

Creating something new does not contradict "no outside of GOD."

Creating something new "outside of GOD", does.

How does that prove an infinite regression isn’t logically impossible? Your video begins and then progresses forever.
If one does a little study on the Set one will discover that the infinite progression can be shown to run opposite [as infinite regression] which signifies that the point where the video begins is the same as the begin/end points which turn up throughout the eternally unfolding.

The idea of Creatio ex nihilo is exactly the same as the idea of Creation being built from something that already existed.
In other words, the thing that didn't exist before, was created from the stuff that has always existed.

That is not creatio ex nihilo at all. The ex nihilo expressly means that it wasn’t built from something that already existed.

But we know that it was built from something that already existed. GOD.

No, you claim that. You haven’t supported it as being true.
My statement has to do with our overall conversation here. Do you want to end this conversation because 'the existence of a creator' hasn't been supported or carry on re the question "Do we exist within a creation?"

When I wrote "we know that it was built from something that already existed" I was referring to Energy and QF [matter] and if these things fundamentally represent GOD [re theistic ideas about existing within a creation] then they may as well be be accepted by theists, in that attitude.

So by “Theists” do you mean “some Theists”?
Of course. Not all theists agree on everything pertaining to existing within a creation. They agree that they exist within a creation.

It is what it is. You are saying that energy is not the same as spirit, but clearly no attributes in both are different. One is just thought of devoid of intelligence while the other is thought of as not being devoid of intelligence.

Well, if true, that’s a big difference. Can you show energy to be intelligent?
Nope.

What we can do is agree that the interaction between Energy and QF results in identifiable intelligent outcomes and take that as an indication that we may indeed be existing within a creation and therefore Energy and Matter may be intelligent, because they do not exist outside of GOD.

Clearly, neither theist or atheist belief re that has proven itself, so the Natural-Neutral position is to understand that both/all labels re "Energy" and "Spirit" are speaking about the same thing, albeit, differently, depending upon the position one is speaking from.

I don’t see how those being the same is the natural or neutral position. Why do you think that?
Energy and QF refers to the nature of the universe, thus the "Natural" part.

Re the question "Do we exist within a creation?", one remains neutral until such a time as nature reveals for certain, either way, thus the "Neutral" part

GM: "Navigational Aids
Rejuvenate
Healing The Beast"
Self-respect

William: Perhaps. Our interactions have been up and down and generally we disconnect on the down, but the pattern is that we also reconnect after a time, and try again...it is just the way the dynamics between Tanager and I have happened...

GM: Descriptive:
"Veil"
"The Design of The Universe"
"The Spirit of the Land"
viewtopic.php?p=1078885#p1078885

William: From the link;

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #58]

In theistic terms, The Heart is not only significant of the organ it is named for, but also - and especially in terms of Mysticism, The Heart refers to the motivating desires of the personality occupying the same body.

Thus, the "hardening of the heart" is about that aspect, re the storyline, as far as can be told.
The Jewish inflection re the storyline is concerned with the idea that supposes the God influences from a position outside of the personalities own perspective and this idea of separation is what brings about such concepts as a god-being interfering/interacting from an outside position, which in turn allows for the idea that the god isn't as good as the story-tellers try to make him out to be, due to how the believers attempt to reconcile the obvious contradictions with their love for such an idea of a Creator-GOD.
This is a type of Stockholm Syndrome as it can be regarded as a coping mechanism to a captive or abusive situation these ideas of GOD produce within the individual, to varying yet still related degrees.
I suspect the whole purpose of the Jewish [and following-on Abrahamic religions] ideas of GOD was to establish a human hieratical system which largely prevents believer and non-believer alike, from accessing possibly [more likely] truer ideas as to how such a GOD-beings' consciousness actually operates in relation to individual human consciousnesses...

It is wise to find a way in which to circumnavigate such obstacles, rather than settle for these being the criteria to which we all have no choice but to submit to.

Well...I think so anyway.

8:16

William · Post by **William** » Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:38 pm

Q: What type of "proof" could possibly be provided re subjects which fall outside the material/natural without that proof being material/natural itself?

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #105]

This is not an unfamiliar question. Theists often ask 'What evidence would convince you of God'; 'What Sort of evidence would you require?'

Be that as it may, this is not the question I asked.

The question I asked has to do with the demand for proof. You specifically called for proof for anything other than the material/natural, which is why I asked for clarity on your part.

I am not asking "what evidence would convince you of God". I am asking you to explain what proof could possibly be presented which is not material/natural.

I already said what would be required - evidence of a Cosmic Mind in nature.

We have discussed this already and have come to no agreement, because our positions on the question of whether we exist within a creation or not, are different.

Atheists and theists have their established beliefs and stipulations on the matter.

Those who are in neither of those two positions have established no beliefs and accompanying stipulations 'for' or 'against' the question.

The existence of mind, could lend itself as evidence that what is being experienced is a created thing.
The observation of mindful activity has that going for it and it does not influence me what theists or atheists say about their own established conclusions re that because the truth is, they don't know either way.

I accept that [they don't know either way] is true.
That truth, is good enough for me.

Rather than concern myself with filling up the Gap of Ignorance with "God-did-it or It did itself" beliefs, I simply allow for the fact that the question remains unanswered at this stage and accept the Gap of Ignorance for the lack of knowledge that it represents.

That gap is still open but we really do require the evidence to show up and be convincing. Until then, the logical rule is no belief without convincing evidence.

The position of Natural-Neutral is the only position which allows for that to genuinely happen without forcing belief-based stipulations [realistic or otherwise] into the mix - re the question of whether we exist within a creation or not.

For example, any scientist worthy of the title will answer the question "Could reality be a simulation?" with "Possibly."

This is to say, they do not have scorn for the idea or say "until there is evidence of it, we will assume the atheist position"

Not knowing either way means one is Naturally Neutral - which, incidentally, is exactly how scientific process proceeds in regard to the initially unknown.
_________________________________________________

090722
Unity with our Collective Self

SCLx9 + select last LE per shuffle
The Theory of Everything - Inalienable [not subject to being taken away from or given away by the possessor.] - Open - Trying to change the world fails for one simple and unavoidable reason...“everyone else.” - Honest attempts at scrubbing up - The Wisdom of Foresight - Wide - The Shared Word-String List - "Does the possibility that being unable to detect something as existing, allow for the right to include 'zero' as representing something real, which is not?"

AP= The Astonishing Simplicity of Everything Points of Reference [=650][Six Five Zero = 158]

158
[Spirit work
Navigational Aids
The solution
Learning to Fly
Misanthropy
Sacred Geometry
Stuff like that...
Phantasmagorical [an exhibition of optical effects and illusions]
Propitious
Clear Your Mind
Try To Relax
Deep Impact Event
One Four Zero
Six Five Zero]

RSP = SCLx2 + P&P + re

10:47

GM: The Metaphysical Universe
GOD
Thread about all things
Pervasive

William: Metaphysical - the essentially metaphysical question of the nature of mind. an empiricist rather than a metaphysical view of law. transcending physical matter or the laws of nature.

GM: Root chakra
"Invite The Bee To Land"
viewtopic.php?p=1081121#p1081121

William: From the link;

Wootah: There is nothing in creation that can represent God but everything points to him.

William: If everything points to YHWH as the "first truly invisible God" are these not therefore able to be described as "physical manifestations that people can look at"?

In what way is it wise to compare YHWH with mute physical idols that people can look at, if there are also invisible entities who can - as one biblical writ offers opinion on others - calling these "false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ" and adding the idea alongside that - perhaps as a way of instilling the concept as a concrete thing in the minds of any who listen - that it is nothing to marvel about because "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light"...and quite the reason I would say, as to why questions such as "Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?" are asked, since both YHWH and Satan are presented equally as "invisible entities" and both appear to be able to present through physical manifestations that people can look at and interact with.

For my part - I consider the Earth Herself to being a god, for she has many of the attributes of a god, but I do not consider Her to being the form of the planet - but rather, the mind therein - and invisible at that [as are all minds] - so wherein can the invisible be seen by the visible, other than through the visible - such as with all minds? Minds cannot be seen unless they are manifested through the visible.
Yet, in Earth being a mindful thing, can we point to Her and declare from this that She "does not represent YHWH" while also declaring that She still points to YHWH?

If not, then your statement "everything points to YHWH" would be untrue...unless in the saying of it, you are meaning something else?

GM: "Without Comparison
Pearl of wisdom"
"GOD became Gods and Goddesses."
Tempting Vision
In The Rabbit Hole
"The Sign On The Door Clearly States The Rules"
[The Earths Moon]
"Does the possibility that being unable to detect something as existing, allow for the right to include zero as representing something real, which is not?"

William: If there is no such thing as "no thing" then "zero" cannot represent "no thing"...it must therefore, represent something...so... Q: What is the thing that zero represents?

GM: "The Astonishing Simplicity of Everything
Behind The Scenery"

William: That is a great way of explaining what Zero represents.
0= "The Astonishing Simplicity of Everything Behind The Scenery"

GM: Everyone: "In space nobody can hear you scream"
Saturn: "Hold my beer..."

William: Yes. "The Music of The Spheres"

GM: Are

William: Arrrr....

GM: "But hey, we can all hope that over time the mainstream view is tending towards the truth. It's certainly a lovely idea"
The Wider Reality:
"When In Doubt - Set It Aside"
The Face of God
https://theagnosticforum.com/threads/do ... 4/post-756

William: From the link;

AB: The problem with making nature or biology the foundation of objective morality is that then it justifies the psychopaths or the male lions that kill the other male lions and their offspring just so they can take over the pride. Both are following their nature or biology. At best, I think we can say that morality is part of nature, but that alone does not tell us which morals are good or bad.

William: Q: "What is it about humans which has the ability to comprehend a [supposed] "Perfect World", which is so obviously different from the real world?"

We search for answers...

What have our sciences done to answer this question?

Or is it a matter that our sciences are being used specifically like unto the male lions, suppressing the main herd while they go about sailing into a particular direction they have selected for themselves?

For the herd notes, [for example] that as grandiose as the latest space telescope is - hurtling and unfurling [fully shaded] toward it's destination some million miles out and, simply to peer into the secrets of the past to 'try and understand'...the herd understands that the money could be 'better spent' on creating a perfect world here in the heart of imperfection - so why is that not been done?

Why is the rest of the herd being experimented on and used for that one purpose?

Just so a few lions can have their names recorded for all time?

Is that moral?

_________________________________________________________________

Does it matter, since morals are really human inventions and are not aligned with the actual reality?

And to the Theist who might believe such, I would add a question to that one.

Q: Since this is not the perfect world you imagine, since you are thinking of kingdoms of plenty where this kind of thing cannot take place, why do morals matter hereabouts in this world, when they seem to serve better in these other imagined next level worlds?

For me in the middle, [Natural-Neutral] I am somewhat undecided. I see the potential for humans to actually build a perfect world for themselves - irrespective of the chaos - and see those in the sciences attempting to do that.[through none other than the devices of the Sciences]
Unfortunately - not everyone is in favor of the perfect world envisioned - of the fiction-like story scientists are opening the door to...and so those not in favor are factored out, through invention...just like how the male lions deal with the male off-spring...not with morals but simply through the natural rule of the game-play of this reality...the School of Hard Knocks.

GM:

William: Is it really that funny?

GM: Fulfilling Human Destiny
"Monkey say monkey do monkey say "throw the pooh"
Perception"
Enqueue [add an item of data awaiting processing, to a queue of such items.]
Religion
"The practice of vipassana [concentration on the body or its sensations, or the insight which this provides.]
Break the glass ceiling"
"The Connection Process
Other Ways of Using Your Lists
Childlike"
Between
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(Gnosticism)
Meaningful

William: From the link;

In Gnosticism, Sophia is a feminine figure, analogous to the human soul but also simultaneously one of the feminine aspects of God.

William: I was conversing with Konsciencia just yesterday;

Konsciencia: For example: in my own truth, Lucifer is The Universe, but no one will accept that. So, they go with their own truth of how they see Lucifer. Also, Lucifer is more a Woman in my view! Which is awesome! I know for sure that The Illuminati has those Ancient text that explains what we were, but there's no actual truth.

William: Truth may not be a fundamental aspect of the universe. Relative truth can be useful to the individual for the purpose of assisting the individual with understanding the fundamental nature of this reality [and alternate realities] being experienced.
With Lucifer, the connect is there also in the Sophia mythology - and Lucifer might represent to Sophia, [macro] what Jung's Archetypes represent to us [micro].
Given the mythology surrounding Lucifer, did Lucifer attempt a coup with the purpose of deception in mind?
Such questions cannot be answered in any way which might satisfy the questioner with the truth.
The solution is to always aim for the top as it were - Sophia is the primary Universal Entity re the mythology - Lucifer appears later on. Is Lucifer working with or against Sophia? Is it even possible to work against Sophia? How do such answers to such question help us individuals?
Apparently Sophia has Parents. If so, this adds to the hierarchal structure in that 'there is more to the story than meets the eye of one's understanding.'

We move onwards...

Konsciencia: Yes... I forgot about The Sophia aspect of The Universe. However, I always say that The Universe is more a Woman, than a Man's kingdom. For example: in my view, Lucifer is a Woman (most often.) In other words, God is a Woman. I do feel a peaceful, and Loving Feminine Vibe whenever I conversate with The Universe.

GM: "The picture unfolds like silk in a loom Silhouetted by Diane are the witch and the broom If she is the bride - who is the groom?"
Constructors and tasks
Remember/Memories

William: From the link;

The people behind the greatest leaps in physics - Einstein, Newton, Heisenberg, all had the uncanny ability to see the fundamentals - see the deepest, underlying facts about the world, and from simple statements about reality they built up their incredible theories. Well what if we all had a recipe book for doing exactly this. Well, one might be just around the corner and it’s called Constructor Theory.

GM: Nuclear
Please
It is Found Within The Experience of Self

11:17 [End of Part I]

William · Post by **William** » Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:44 am

090722

Part II

16:06
Master Plan:
"Don’t hide your Generated Messages"
"IF: there is a Cosmic Mind THEN: Eventually, any species which survives long enough to continue along with the unfolding universe will eventually discover that and invent ways in which to engage."
Hacking through the subconscious
What Are The Chances
"The Home Of The...
William's
The Imagination"
"Yes We Can!"
"Adversity makes strange bedfellows
Unexpected"
Realm of Dreams
"The Patupaiarehe

Inner child"
viewtopic.php?p=1081733#p1081733

William: From the link;

I have since changed my view, as my understanding is that "Agnostic" is too misunderstood.
My current understanding is this;

William: The Natural-Neutral Default Position

GM: Sober journey into self-realization

William: Better than trying on the Agnostic label which has been through the mill

GM: A terrible milestone

William: Ground into powder....

GM: "We Are All Becoming One
Pure soul"
Mind Games
"Love Heart
Privacy"
Points of Reference
"It is a slippery path of snake-oil."
[We stood side by side while the veils did hide the faces of children now grown
Making Up Stories]
Universal Intelligence Communications Device
"The Number Zero"

William: Signifying "The Astonishing Simplicity of Everything Behind The Scenery"

GM: Being Born
Precise definitions of strategies
Counsel
Konkachila
Between
“You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose”
The Played Piece
Things exist - and do not just exist but exist to be experienced.

William: "These things have been given to me, now what to do with these things..."

GM: Christendom...
"Astral Teachers
Earth Mother"
Disingenuous [not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.]
viewtopic.php?p=1068520#p1068520

William: From the link;

Theophile: We see this emphasized in Matthew 19, in Jesus' teaching about the rich man. The rich man already follows the law perfectly! (Including, presumably, the greatest commandment - love). But Jesus is explicit: this is still not enough for him to enter into the kingdom. To do so, to truly live under grace, he needs to give away all that he has and go follow Jesus.

It's not a personal struggle I have or anything like that. It's just the words written down...

William: Words written down are one thing.
Interpretation of words written down are another.

As I pointed out, the story of the rich pious man revealed the mans inner attitude which did not align with his outer pious actions - thus presumption we might have re the mans outward actions based upon what we observe the man doing, is incorrect.
It is safer to presume from the story that the man did not operate sufficiently with love - either for his God or for his fellow human beings.

The man made a claim. He 'did all the things required of him' but biblical Jesus saw through the pretense and got to the point.

William: So the rich man in the story, was being disingenuous...makes perfect sense.

GM: Holographic Universe
Keen
Warm Presence
"Deconstruct The Message"
Perennial [lasting or existing for a long or apparently infinite time; enduring or continually recurring.]

William: Right - like the discussion I am having with Tanager right now regaring the Mandelbrot Set...

Tanager: How does that prove an infinite regression isn’t logically impossible? Your video begins and then progresses forever.

William: If one does a little study on the Set one will discover that the infinite progression can be shown to run opposite [as infinite regression] which signifies that the point where the video begins is the same as the begin/end points which turn up throughout the eternally unfolding.

Tanager: Can you share the reasoning that shows this?

William: Sure - when I come across the video I picked the info up from, I will. From memory, the person showed that by applying the Set formula for the negative numbers, one gets a mirror-image of the Set, 'going the other way'...having written that, it occurred to me I could google something like "Mandelbrot Set negative equation" - there are articles on this you can view for yourself, if you make a similar worded search...

GM: Feelings Perceptions, and Behavior
Flat
viewtopic.php?p=1081499#p1081499

William: The link goes to a post I made about Agnosticism being a more reasonable position than Atheism.
Traditionally Agnosticism is seen as a subset of Atheism, and I thought this was just another Atheistic grab-like the claim "all humans are born atheists" et merda...
It seems to me it is better to abandon the label altogether which is why I came up with "Natural-Neutral"...

GM: An Aladdin's cave
"Shallow is Unknown"

16:39

William · Post by **William** » Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:47 pm

[Replying to The Tanager in post #696]

It seems to me like you should be saying Energy is the mindful aspect of GOD which forms the material aspect of GOD into shapes.

At this point I am bouncing around with ideas already established by religious theists in order to get bearings on the differences in beliefs as to how well they hold up to the things we do know about the universe.

One such option being examined is from the Jehovah's Witness religion. As I am attempting with you and your beliefs, I am also attempting to get clarity on their beliefs re this.

So far what I am being informed, is that the JW belief is;

"The Spirit is not God. It emanates FROM God, like power emanates from an electrical facility. The power is not the electrical facility."
viewtopic.php?p=1084079#p1084079

There appear to be two theistic beliefs re the nature of Energy;

1. Energy and spirit are distinct things
2. Energy and spirit are the same thing

It was a mistake to add the so-called "third view"; [3. I don’t know which is true]

This has to be rectified, in that it is not a theistic belief and shouldn't have been placed on your "list of views".

To clarify. Which of those two options do you position your belief?

Okay, but you aren’t being neutral in doing so. You have left neutrality via an assumption that “Theism” is true.

Nice try Tanager. Remove [3] from your list and the waters will clear.

One remains neutral simply by not making a shift to either Theism or Atheism.
One can lend and ear to either side without having to wear the burden of being accused of holding and defending the position of either side.

As I wrote;

"Being in the Natural Neutral position helps as it eliminates belief or lack of belief and simply accepts 'we don't know' while acknowledging that it is still worthwhile to - at least - attempt to find out..."

And on that point, I gave you information re the Mandelbrot Set being shown to display infinite regression and infinite progression. The reasoning has already been 'laid out'. Your thoughts on it [even as a concept unsighted] in regard to my own [already mentioned] are welcome.
____________________________________________________________________

100722
Precise definitions of strategies

SCLx10 + select last LE per shuffle
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched — they must be felt with the heart” - True happiness - I AM WE ARE - Fast - Rationality - Blood Sacrifice - Freeing the soul - - Everything Is Unique - Do a begin/end...

AP= One's thoughts I Will [= 236]
236
[Soul Carrier Memories
Universal Intelligence
Cyborg Anthropology
Copper wire and glass beads
Strength is required
One's thoughts I Will]

RSP = SCLx2 + P&P + re

05:39

GM: Do a begin/end...[B&E]

William: Okay...

[B&E throughout =GM]

GM: One's thoughts Sea The Deeper Self Purpose To what end exactly?

William: I do not know. How deep is infinity that an end can be measured? Isn't that what the Mandelbrot Set visually displays? There are begin/end points but the flow is infinity - regressive and progressive and neither contradicting the other.

GM: Cleanliness Discernment

William: I think so too...

GM: Victim/Vampire Energy Exchange All at sea

William: [Perplexed, bewildered, as in She was all at sea in these new surroundings. This idiom transfers the condition of a vessel that has lost its bearings to the human mind.]
Yes - I see what you are saying there. V/V Energy feeds itself on itself - ouroboros-like...which of course is also how infinity works re the Mandelbrot Set visuals.
However, the V/V exchange seeks to use the process as a means of staying around forever...not sure that is the best way to spend forever...it is unappealing to me...

GM: A dish fit for the gods... Description "Instant Manifestation"

William: We get what we ask for, regardless of how we use the energy....

GM:

William:

GM: The Number One Nine Two

William: So far I have these entries under that value, on my N2N list;

[Smoke and Mirrors
Quantum Presence
Merging with the data
Integral Network
Responsibility
Tempting Vision
The Way of the Shaman
Moderator Comment
Childhood Nightmares
Atheists crack me up.]

GM: It is a mystery which must be solved that the Human becomes true.

William: Merging with the data
[Integral Network]
[Responsibility]
"The Way of the Shaman" then...

GM: The Physical Universe The rich world of conscious experience Fun...Work...But Fun Nonetheless

William: I am trying to see it that way...it isn't easy...

GM: Actions speak louder than words
"The problem - as I understand it – is in how humans general think about ‘God’ and project their own sense of self into the model they each come to accept as the real thing."

William: I said that. As it is right now, if I 'see' GOD as 'consciousness' and re this universe, as "The Universal Consciousness" or "Cosmic Mind" - The Mind behind the creative unfolding of the universe...my 'sense of self' - regarding that - is that;

I am loath to embrace the idea of enduring this universe forever...due to the aspect of entropy...it would be no fun hanging around forever once 'things' dissipated because things are what allow for fun to be had.
However, as I have been learning through this GM process - specifically to do with Isaac Asimov's short story "[The Last Question]" - AND re the visual evidence of the Mandelbrot Set once the energy has dissipated through entropy, The Cosmic Mind simply engages with the Quantum field [The Matter] and creates a new 'thing-of-a-universe'.
That in itself would be fun...

GM: Unequal

William: Uniqueness

GM: Persevere "May all your madventures be fun."

William: Indeed. However, some would argue that anything involving suffering isn't 'fun'.

GM: The evidence is too strong, to believe there is no intelligent mind involved as part of the universes structure.

William: Agreed. But what about the Cosmic Mind's idea of "Fun" re "Suffering"?

GM: "Ghost Dance"

William: Like a ships wake? Such will be left behind...eventually?

GM: The Dark Night of The Soul Adjusted Reality

William: So when I argued...

Therefore, we know that when someone say's "time will tick on forever because the universe will go on forever", they are superimposing a non-fundamental onto a fundamental. Whether proclaimers recognize this is what is occurring, or not, such a saying is not strictly true, but simply type of romantic/symbolic representation clinging onto the wake of the fundamental...wanting to be part of it forever.

William:..."Time" is meaningful only in the context of what is moved, rather than what is doing the moving?

GM: The Harmless Enough Agenda Crowd ...Childlike

William: Understanding based upon being not being fully informed?

GM: Beckoning Positivity
The Navigator Can Read Maps.
Military Longing Righty Oh!

William: As in "Salute and get to it" ?

GM: It can be crazy and true at the same time

William: Annoyingly so.

GM: Apotheosis

William: The highest point in the development of something; a culmination or climax. the elevation of someone to divine status.

GM: Story-Tellers Mind Games A countenance more in sorrow than in anger...
Separation viewtopic.php?p=1070045#p1070045

William: From the link;

Clownboat: Tricking people for profit surely isn't kind though.

William: Humans are apparently not naturally inclined to kindness.

Diogenes: I disagree. Tho' we have our moments of unkindness, in general all healthy humans value kindness. Our very lives depend on it. We evolved, we survived because we were kind to each other - we cooperated. It is in our self interest to be kind and cooperate. Even the 'lower' mammals are kind to each other and have a sense of reciprocal fairness. We didn't need any particular religion or 'savior' to teach us this. We know it. Even the animals do.

We even have inter species friendships. We love and our kind to our pets. They are loyal and kind to us.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interspecies_friendship

William: If it is natural for humans to be kind and therefore my comment that "humans are apparently not naturally inclined to kindness" is untrue, what unnatural thing compels humans to be unkind?

Or could it be that both states are natural enough, depending upon circumstance and individuals simple adopt the best way they can find as a means of being able to sustain the governing emotions required for either state?

Understanding that the individuate position most humans are born to experience, the underlying motivation is intentionally selfish because recognition of the importance of the self becomes the initial propellent for all subsequent actions employed.

In that, it doesn't matter how one chooses to observe Jesus - as an historical image more human than the biblical Jesus - or how the bible images him - Socrates, Plato, Gandhi, Paul, David, Abraham or Glen - got their motivation for kindness from the same source - as we all do, when unkindness is dropped from our programs.

GM: "We are not orphaned - we are authored"
Make Story
viewtopic.php?p=1081283#p1081283

William: The link is to an earlier post - where Tanager and I are in the initial stages of teasing out the specifics of the different beliefs involved with A Cosmic Mind [aka GOD] and the way in which that mind creates 'things' - from within itself or from outside of itself...our discussion is ongoing...

GM: Bonding Entities of Particular Belief Systems
Becoming whole

William: I remain upon minded re that...
7:20

Post by **The Tanager** » Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:19 pm

William wrote: ↑Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:47 pmThere appear to be two theistic beliefs re the nature of Energy;

1. Energy and spirit are distinct things
2. Energy and spirit are the same thing

It was a mistake to add the so-called "third view"; [3. I don’t know which is true]

This has to be rectified, in that it is not a theistic belief and shouldn't have been placed on your "list of views".

To clarify. Which of those two options do you position your belief?

My comment was not in the context of only talking about theistic views. You seem to have had that context in mind when reading it, but I didn’t when writing it.

But to clarify, I think energy and spirit are distinct things.

William wrote: ↑Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:47 pmAnd on that point, I gave you information re the Mandelbrot Set being shown to display infinite regression and infinite progression. The reasoning has already been 'laid out'. Your thoughts on it [even as a concept unsighted] in regard to my own [already mentioned] are welcome.

You did not lay the reasoning out. You said the video shows an infinite regression mirrors infinite progression and said that I could also find articles about it. I asked you to lay the reasoning out that shows the mirroring and that this mirroring shows an infinite regression is possible.

William · Post by **William** » Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:01 pm

William: For me it seems pointless trying to resurrect a position to its former status.

AB: That may be the case but we still need a position that opposes or that's neutral in relation to the two extremes.

William: I doubt there will be any formal position.
It is better to recognize the function of the position in relation to theism and atheism, than to waste effort on trying to resurrect a failed attempt to do this with Agnosticism.

Obviously at some point after the introduction of Agnosticism, Atheism - up to its normal tricks - hijacked the position by claiming the position was a subset of Atheism - and referring to agnostics as 'weak atheists'.

Further to that, my observations are that both theists and atheists assume that the only two positions one can have on the question of whether we exist within a creation is 'yes' or 'no' and 'maybe' is not really a position on the question at all. One either believes or one does not believe. "Maybe' is 'wishy-washy'.

AB: Perhaps I'm being too optimistic but I would like to see the original agnosticism become the common usage.

William: Call me a realist because I think that ship has sailed.
Furthermore, how many folk do you see around this forum, referring to themselves as Agnostic and beating the drums of solidarity?

AB: Don't get me wrong, modern agnostics have a lot in common with the agnosticism that Huxley advocated for, but they do limit themselves when or if they don't go beyond their "I don't know" position.

William: Where are these 'modern agnostics'?

"I don't know" is the most honest reply to the question .

Q: Do we exist within a creation?"

Theist: I have belief that we do exist within a creation.

Atheist: I lack belief that we do exist within a creation.

Natural Neutral: I don't know and refuse to form belief or lack of belief as belief or non-belief provides me with no compelling answer.
_____________________________________

110722
Move beyond the human condition

SCLx7 + select last LE per shuffle
You Tube - "Like being pushed out from a stinky hole, can have one develop a bad self-complex" - The Next Step - To Add to That - "From what I am seeing re the data , it shows clearly that an underlying intelligence operates quietly in the background of the Universes Structure" - Until "Christ Returns" - Heart advice

AP= "Well even the most ugly of us have a Father."

[in house joke] - [=419]

419
[What I also know is that numbers don't lie.
Might even cause Dad to crack a smile...who knows!

"Well even the most ugly of us have a Father."

]

RSP = SCLx1 B&E

7:10

GM: Changing The Rules Your Dream Team The non-Judgmental Algorithm Victim/Vampire Energy Exchange The Corporate Elite Loving-kindness The Sub Hierarchy Navigational Aids

William: As I understand it, "Corporate Elite" signifies "The individuals brain-consciousness" whereas "The Sub Hierarchy" is indicative of "The individuals brain-sub consciousness"...this has to do with such notions as "Intuition" and "Morality" and the deeper [less understood and less acknowledged] things of the mind in general

GM: [368]
"Sometimes it just looks like rain"
[Changes mind when truth is presented]
Less understood and less acknowledged

William: The "Power-Station Concept"
viewtopic.php?p=1084079#p1084079

GM: From the link;

Spirit is not God. It emanates FROM God, like power emanates from an electrical facility. The power is not the electrical facility.

GM: What Is Found Here?

William: The analogy makes GOD a Machine...

GM: Cycle Chance, "That is Correct"

William: If it were, that makes the physical universe created from the Energy, 'the machine' because that is the only machinery we see.
This in turn makes the "Creates Itself Fallacy" questionable...which is why GOD is conveniently placed outside of the universe.
Even so - this make GOD a machine creating a machine...
Then we have the atheist foot in the door asking "what created the GOD machine?" and reminding us of the "absurdity of infinite regression" [while infinite progression remains strangely valid]
"Talk to The Hand."

GM: Talk to The Hand...
That one might not have need of, does not negate that confidence cannot be gained through such device, with others.

William: What can I say...I have been using this GM process practically every day for a few months already, and 'it works' whatever 'it' is...

GM: The Vector Symbol Use Heart
The simplest explanations for why we are here and what we are doing...
The House of Science
Why this oft taboo subject needs to be understood in some less sweep-under-the-carpet way

William: The House of Science is busy trying to get a foothold on the stars...the mind is useful to that end, but is largely ignored on account that Science is not useful in relation to invisible realities...one has to see before one can appreciate...
Yet all are using this invisible resource as a means of understanding the physical universe...the mind is treated as a secondary emergent property and of no fundamental connection with Energy or Matter....with the actual physical universe...with 'Reality'.

GM: The evidence supports the idea that Theism is the better position for a human to place themselves.
Visible Light Girl "Couldn’t we do something about it..."

William: Don't think I haven't noticed on occasions, you calling me that...

GM: A measured step

William: Sure - What else am I to do with the life I have? Try to nut out how humans could steer the rudder on the ship being sailed...

GM: Time for Soul to Drive

William: How is this to be accomplished, world-wide?

GM: Get The Ball Rolling

William: Like "Step One:..." [131]
[Mother Earth
Intuition
Development
The Power Of...
Those Who Can
Learn How to
The Bidden Zone
Anticipation
The Old Soul
Not a Problem!
Heuristics [mental shortcuts that allows people to solve problems and make judgments quickly and efficiently. ]
Google Deep mind
Solipsism [the view or theory that the self is all that can be known to exist.]
Anchors aweigh
He Who Waits
Moon energy
Narcissist
Perseverance
Golden nugget
Active dreaming
Connections
Becoming whole
The Garden of Eden
The Squeeze
From the link
Like "Step One:..."]

GM: Present over perfect The Number One Nine Two

William:
[Quantum Presence
Merging with the data
Integral Network
Responsibility
Tempting Vision
The Way of the Shaman]

GM: Why is this a Requirement?

William: Because it appears to fit with the description "How to fix the world" as - possibly - a genuine recipe..."do this, get that..." The tools to achieve this have been made available...how to convince all the theists and atheists is the question...

GM: Free your soul The Realm of Judgement
"When our progressive movements are strong, they lead toward an exciting, irresistible vision for the future where all of us thrive"
Being aware of Human Control Dramas

William: Such as how theists and atheists consider the neutral position as wishy-washy and besides the point...

GM: 10 Insights You are neutral
viewtopic.php?p=1081283#p1081283

William: Again with the link to a conversation between Tanager and I where we are initial teasing out the particulars re "Is there an outside of GOD?"...
More recently, Tanager has mentioned my saying I am in a Natural-Neutral position...

William: Energy and QF refers to the nature of the universe, thus the "Natural" part.

Re the question "Do we exist within a creation?", one remains neutral until such a time as nature reveals for certain, either way, thus the "Neutral" part

Tanager: I don’t see how that’s remaining neutral.

GM: Signs Contact With
"Is it a mindless chaotic process which just happens to consistently appear coherent, no matter what random system we use in order to select the word-strings which generate the message?"
God/Source/Home

William: One leads to the other...
Hypnagogic experience
Sharing Your Love
The Spirit of the Land
A Space Without A Time...
All Things Are In Order
You Are Watched Over
Become more expansive
Emotional awareness
Underdetermination
One leads to the other...

GM: Move On Start where you are
No Country For Old Men Observant

William: "If the rule you followed....brought you to this...of what use was the rule?"
[The human tendency to see signals in the noise, even when there is only noise.]
The use of the rule is determined by the value the rule proves to be...

GM: The "All Matey"
viewtopic.php?p=1077104#p1077104

William: I was thinking about JK's position. He remains firmly atheist because he see atheism as a platform for fighting against religious morality using social Law to impose Christian Morals upon atheists and non-Christians ...
From the link;

JoeyKnothead: The "initial state" seems to be out of the reach of being described in any accurate or meaningful manner.

William: In that, it is no more or less better than the idea of an exclamation "let there be light" from an Intelligent Source being the Initial State.

JoeyKnothead: Plenty fair. Though one's gotta ponder what did it that thinking.

William: That is a journey in itself and provides me with lifetime of interesting subjective experience re my own way of interreacting with and finding out about such a thinker...
You mention what "Stokes That Fire" - it boils down to the so-called "Problem of Evil" which this morning I was thinking is like unto the '"Problem of Unicorns".
Yes. "Understanding the mind behind creation which is commonly referred to as "God" " is a "problem" due largely to the historical content of human interaction with this idea of "GOD" which has a poor record among the general populace, and can be attributed with some horrific milestones along the road-side of human history.
It is understandable that folk want to avoid that path in particular, given its track record.

However, full avoidance is impractical, unwise and unsustainable...and cannot really be avoided as long as consciousness exists in the human form and does what it does in whatever 'name' it is doing it.
"GOD" in essence is like unto a mirror-image of the formless ghost we call "Consciousness" and acts out as it sees fit, through biological instruments ... and it cannot be completely exorcised from the mathematical equations, even if it is only represented as "Zero". The rest of the Math cannot be done without that 'non-number'.
"Zero" does not actually represent "nothing" because "nothing" does not exist and so cannot be represented.
Therefore, "Zero" must have to represent something which does exist but is largely unseen - and "Consciousness" fits that description.
"Consciousness" = "Zero", mathematically speaking.

GM: God Eat Data Heal Cub

William: Through 'feedback'.
That is what this GM process is exhibiting

GM: Instant Though "the Serpent rules the Shadow"
[Ancient Grey Entity]

William: "Well even the most ugly of us have a Father."

GM: The Great White Brotherhood You will overcome
Semiotics [the study of signs and symbols and their use or interpretation.] Spiritual Activism viewtopic.php?p=1070402#p1070402

William: From the link;

William: What has been established beyond reasonable doubt, it that it is illogical that "something that is, derived from something that isn't", which firmly places the idea of a Creator/Creation as primary for genuine and sustained consideration.

Brunumb: What hasn't been established is what preexisted this iteration of matter/energy that we refer to as the universe.

William: Scientists are working on finding this out. IF they are correct about the infinitesimally small object which exploded and produced what we currently are experiencing as a stage in the universes unfolding, THEN at least we can identify said object as "The Seed of Origin"

What, if anything pre-existed that - is beyond our current ability to know.

Brunumb: If it was not 'nothing' and we know nothing about it, then how can we deduce that it involved some sort of mindful creator?

William: Easily enough. We know that mind is integrated with matter. Thus we have clear evidence that a mindful creator is involved, even if that creator-mind is unfolding from the Seed of Origin which birthed the universe we are witnessing through experience.
Being that it has emerged since the germination {Big Bang} it has had a great amount of time in which to learn to effect the matter to whatever it wills, even to the point of doing so here on this planet, as we ourself bear witness, even to the degree that we refer to that as "reality".

Brunumb: One can stick that on the table for consideration but there is nowhere to go after that.

William: There is always somewhere to go. Testing it out for starters.
If:
There is a mind behind creation
THEN:
We ought be able to communicate with it, using whatever physical devices we can create in order to do so.

Brunumb: It's all just imaginative speculation.

William: How do you know that? Or are you imagining that is all that it is?

Brunumb: When you look at this universe and everything within it, it is hard to imagine it all arising from some sort of mindful creator as far as I am concerned.

William: That is very understandable. However, even being that it is hard to imagine, it is not impossible. I haven't had any insurmountable problem in at least subjectively verifying It exists, or finding ways in which to communicate with It.

Brunumb: Extend that into the domain of the Christian creator God, then it all even becomes an absurdity.

William: As came up recently in my communion with said Mind -
GM: Where is Truth?
We Groove Together
Recovery
The resistance is generally traceable to the theistic approach of religionizing said intelligent mind.
William: What is noticeable about theism - even where it has branched into religionism - is that this is a type of means of leaving a trail in ones wake, and the trail itself shows efforts of The Mind to engage with human minds for the purpose of connecting - but often religious leaders have used this as a means of securing station/position within hierarchal structures which require said leaders to be the middle-person between The Mind and the individual - something easily enough achieved since the individual can be unsure of themselves and even afraid of doing that, so they willingly allow for the medium to act as go-between...which more often than not leads to little to no meaningful connection at all.

This also occurs in theistic non-religious structures - mostly because individuals doubt themselves sincere and honest enough to drop the medium and connect in a self-responsible manner.

Even so, I write that as an observation rather than a judgement. The Mind is aware that it is a scary thing for individuate human minds to willingly do, and while ideally if everyone did do it, much good could be accomplished, that most do not do it, does not affect the agenda of said Mind.

8:39

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:42 pm

otseng: I mentioned before we cannot impose our modern standards on the Bible. Likewise, we shouldn't impose our modern view of cosmology on others and look down on how earlier cultures viewed the cosmos. As CS Lewis termed it, that would be chronological snobbery.

Finding out how ancient cultures view the heavens is a fairly large topic. In fact, it's an entire discipline in itself.

[Replying to otseng in post #1103]

I think this ties in with modern knowledge re the way things were said can be aligned with the way things have since proven to be.

Even in modern times, there is tendency to describe things from the subjective center of consciousness...from which all else flows around about.

Even that we do not know if consciousness has such a center - the only thing matching the concept, is the Self.

But what is the Self, that we dare proclaim it the center of everything?

If we call it "GOD" we blaspheme, for there is only One GOD and you and I are not IT, according to the teachings of...

Is there a center to every object in this universe?

Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good;
his love endures forever.
Let Israel say:
His love endures forever.”
Let the house of Aaron say:
“His love endures forever.”
Let those who fear the Lord say:
“His love endures forever.”
When hard pressed, I cried to the Lord;
he brought me into a spacious place.
The Lord is with me; I will not be afraid.
What can mere mortals do to me?
The Lord is with me; he is my helper.
I look in triumph on my enemies.
It is better to take refuge in the Lord
than to trust in humans.
It is better to take refuge in the Lord
than to trust in princes.
______________________

120722
Human Imagination Has Consequences

SCLx13 + select last LE per shuffle
What is the meaning of life? - Putting My Finger On It - Energy - Message Generator System of Random Selection of Word-Strings - I Suppose That It Is Possible - A Meeting Place - Jesus - Validation - http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... tcount=918 [as long as GMs are coherent, they can be interpreted] - The Nature of The Mind - Controlled by fear - Breasts - Science and Spirituality

William: Perhaps backwards or forwards doesn't matter

AP= A new Paradigm has arisen whereby folk can drop the idea of being a 'true Christian' and simply be a True Human. [nine two five = 142]

[142]
[Communicating
Nurturing
Copper snakes
Soul Has an Agenda
New Years Eve
Source Sync
Get Comfortable
Redefine Oneself
Don’t fall asleep
Fearlessness
Self-discipline
The Ishango bone
Post ignored
Forty Two
Madventures]

RSP = SCLx1 B&E

8:15

GM: In The Team Of The Collective Research into the Phenomenology of the Self

William: an approach that concentrates on the study of consciousness and the objects of direct experience.
This has to do with a recent post I made;
viewtopic.php?p=1084228#p1084228

GM: From the link;

onewithhim: Of course the Spirit is not God. It emanates FROM God, like power emanates from an electrical facility. The power is not the electrical facility.

William: So - what you may be attempting to convey, is that the facility which creates the Energy is GOD, but the Energy itself is not GOD?

The Energy itself is NOT intelligent, but the Facility which produces the Energy IS, and is GOD?

onewithhim: Yes.

William: That is like unto the Star Wars universe where The Force can be integrated with the individuals consciousness and used for both 'dark-side' and 'light-side' activity.

The Power-Station analogy doesn't exclude The Force from originating from a mechanistic device. [Power Station]

The device is simply hidden and as a Power Station it requires being accounted for as to how it came to be built.

We have the atheist foot in the door asking "what created the GOD machine?" and reminding us of the "absurdity of infinite regression" [while infinite progression remains strangely valid]

Isaac Asimov summed it up succinctly with his fireside telling of it ... The Last Question

Consciousness created The Machinery.

For some reason, Consciousness is able to effect the Quantum Field and through the vibrations of this interaction, Energy is created and form with function is manifested.

The "function" aspect is solely the dominion of Consciousness.

In that, the equation;

0 ‽ E & ∴ ‽ F c̅ QM [Consciousness Creates Energy And Thereby Creates Functional Form With Quantum Matter

0 ‽ F c̅ E + 0 [Consciousness Creates Functional Form With Energy and Consciousness]

Q: How is Energy produced by Consciousness? [What is the fundamental nature of Energy?]

GM: The curating is done when I am taking my first baby steps and learning to say "dada" and "mama" and after uttering those sounds show - at least that I am able to do that - so the next level entry is made available to me, and I learn how to shape the sounds I can make, following codes which have been around since long before my own arrival on this planet, to what the data signifies, that is information I am interested in.

William: When I wrote that, it was in coming to the realization of what it is we humans have to work with - language...and how language influences thought...

GM: "This Translates To That."

William: Yes...

GM: Fly Without A Machine For Solving Problems

William: Yes - fly without wings...something thoughts enable us to experience...within the vast realm of imagination...

GM: T-Shirts Taking root

William: I goggled that and got this;

GM: Root of evil

William: Okay - I got this;

GM: "Life is my predestiny - Providence is God to me" True happiness Taciturn [reserved or uncommunicative in speech; saying little.] Light is information

William: Yes - just not verbal in nature...

GM: Contentment "It is a good sign when Joey Knothead cannot argue against the evidence you present"

William: Yes. JK has a great mind to run things by...

GM: Universal Objectives You Are All Loveable...
Spiritual path Dysfunctional Atman Important Like mindful nests with eggs in 'em

William: Atman- the spiritual life principle of the universe, especially when regarded as immanent in the individual's real self.

GM: Beyond a shadow of a doubt
Stay Present *Nods* In The Light Of The Truth

William: *Nods*

8:35

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:35 pm

SaD: I was told that my quilt is ugly. I was so sad. I make everything with so much love! I wanted to know the group's opinion about this beautiful pattern.
Free tutorial https://crochethomekh.blogspot.com/.../ ... stitch-for...

: Primates in the wild don't normally throw feces.

Not only is throwing poop or objects an emotional release for chimps but it is a form of communication. The better the chimp is at hitting the target, the better their communication is amongst the group.

William: Also - when the poop [or other object] is picked up and hurled again, it is communicating that a new appreciative audience has been sort, for the purpose of getting folks attention about beautiful things they wish the could afford to buy...

William: Is it really that funny?

GM: Fulfilling Human Destiny
"Monkey say monkey do monkey say "throw the pooh"
Perception"
Enqueue [add an item of data awaiting processing, to a queue of such items.]
Religion

[~090722 "Unity with our Collective Self" ~]

Fox: I am not a quilter, but I know how much work and love goes into quilts. I am a sucker for the red, black and white combo. Your work is beautiful.

Hynd: How rude. Your quilt is beautiful someone who doesn't appreciate the love that goes into every stitch I would imagine ❤ ♥

Stumer: It’s stunning.. some eyes see lovely sadly some see yuk but it’s important that you love what you’ve made and it’s beautiful to you

Violette: The only thing ugly is the person who made that comment. Your quilt is great it's you and nobody else. Does that horrid person quilt? If he/she doesn't they should learn how and see what they produce. Keep quilting.

Dawson: What does it matter what anyone else sees, thinks.
You take pride in your work and pleased with the results.
That’s all that matters

Debating Christianity and Religion

Generating Messages

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Re: Generating Messages

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