I've come for you

[coffeem8]

Hey y'all

Let's play a game.. you tell me why you don't believe in God, and I will attempt to change your mind!

If you already believe in God + Jesus, we can talk about that, too

Yay! It'll be fun, lol

[Divine Insight]

Hey y'all

Let's play a game.. you tell me why you don't believe in God, and I will attempt to change your mind!

If you already believe in God + Jesus, we can talk about that, too

Yay! It'll be fun, lol

You'll need to explain the game a little better than this. For example, what do you mean by "God"?

I see that you are already suggesting God + Jesus. But that is a very specific God mythology. I have already recognized that Hebrew mythology is clearly false. Jesus was no demigod. And the God character of the Old Testament is clearly false.

So when you ask me to tell you why I don't believe in "God" do you actually mean to ask why I don't believe in the Christian version of Hebrew mythology?

I have plenty of reasons for rejecting the Abrahamic religions in general. As far as I'm concerned the Bible has already proven itself to be false beyond any shadow of a doubt.

So I'm not sure where to even begin with your game?

If you game has to do with the Hebrew God of Abraham then I would suggest that we begin with the Old Testament. And I'm not interested in hearing a word about Jesus until you have convinced me why I should believe in the God of the Old Testament first.

Like I say, I'm not sure where to begin. There are so many reasons why I don't believe in the Hebrew Old Testament myths.

I'll give you a few reasons just to get you started.

In Genesis Chapter 1:21 it says, "And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good."

So I guess your first challenge is to explain to me why God created animals that eat each other, and each others babies, and thought that this was "good"?

By the time we get into Genesis Chapter 3, I already find countless problems in that very small chapter. I could almost write a book on the problems in this short chapter alone.


To begin with why did God allow an evil serpent into the Garden of Eden in the first place?

Secondly how in the world could Adam or Eve have recognize that the serpent was lying to them if they had no knowledge of good and evil, and lying is evil?

Thirdly, if being naked is evil, then why were Adam and Eve naked to begin with?

~~~~~~

There are many more problems with this chapter.

1. Why did God feel that making the serpent crawl on his belly and eat dirt would solve anything?
2. Why didn't the curse cast on the serpent solve anything?
3. Why did God feel that cursing Eve with greatly multiplied pain and sorrow in childbirth would solve anything?
4. Why didn't cursing Eve with greatly multiplied pain and sorrow in childbirth solve anything?
5. Why would a Creator use the very act of creation as a weapon of punishment?
6. Eve confessed to her sins, turned in all guilty parties, and coopered with God fully. Why wasn't she granted forgiveness?
7. Why weren't Adam and Eve offered Jesus as their Savior?
8. Why did God create a woman like Eve for Adam in the first place? Why didn't God created a nice girl like Mother Mary as Adam's helpmate?
9. Why should anyone trust a God who can't even fix them up with a wholesome dependable mate?

This is just the very tip of the iceberg. We're still in the first few chapters of Genesis. Things only go down hill from here.

So anyway, address all of the above first, and then we can move on to more absurdities and contradictions.

[coffeem8]

Hello, Divine Insight

Thanks for playing


Before all things, Jesus and God are what I believe in and what I stand on. So, I tell you now that I base these concepts on the absolute trust of the Word of God, kjv, to which I hold myself accountable. All things I say, are to the best of my knowledge, and I humbly anticipate the continuance of my own learning

That being said, I gotta say this too: I just answered every ? and comment you had, quote for quote, and when I selected preview, it all disappeared So imma answer again, but this time I must answer all in one body. (I'm almost late) I hope to speak with you further, later.


When I mention God, I'm speaking of the one which created all things according to his love and ability! With my God given brain and thumbs (I'm on an android lol) I thank Him for even the existance with which I live! Mythology cannot contain Him and is not His category.

So, yeah.. all the stuff he made is good. Gen 1:29-31 testifies that he gave herbs to all living things to eat. Carnage came after the fall.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us... John 1:1-3, 14a

So if one doesn't want a word about Jesus, one must not read any of the Scripture at all.

*I don't know why God let the serpent go in there.
*God warned them beforehand, and proved himself faithful to his Word
*The realization of evil caused their nakedness to be evil.
*ask a serpent if the curse was effective! Lol. God considered it fair enough
*This whole issue is still being resolved.
*What eve did was a factor in each and every drama we face today.. so the curse is a reminder
*Should the creator allow the creation to use itself against himself?Let's pin the blame where it belongs on Satan's perversion of Gods plan.
*There was no provision for forgiveness in this case, because number one, there wasn't supposed to be a rebellion, and number two, God WAS merciful while also faithful to his word.
*In order for Jesus' role to come into play, many things had to happen first. They had to wait.
*Gods creation of eve was and is sufficient for man. Satan's use of Gods creation is unwholesome.

We are considering the state of man to be the same in the garden as it is now.

So, in the game, I asked you why you to tell me why you didn't believe in God.. after reading your response, is the reply just that you don't like the way He does things? Or, you are disappointed in the way things have turned out?

[Divine Insight]

So, in the game, I asked you why you to tell me why you didn't believe in God.. after reading your response, is the reply just that you don't like the way He does things? Or, you are disappointed in the way things have turned out?

Neither.

It's not that I don't like the way this God does things. It's simply that I can't believe that any actual God would be that inept. Therefore I see no reason to believe in Hebrew mythology.

As far as disappointment is concerned, I see no reason to be disappointed in a fable that I don't believe in. The biblical fables have this God failing at everything he tries to do. And the "blame" keeps being pinned on this Satan fellow which requires that I also must believe in a demonic boogieman who continually outsmarts God. I just don't find it to be a convincing mythology.

Just for the sake of sharing my views I could write a mythology along the basic lines of the Bible and have it far more convincing. For one thing, I would have mankind fall on his own without the need to have him betrayed by a supposedly evil serpent. Secondly, I would have Eve blatantly rebelling against God rather than confessing everything and turning in all guilty parties like a nice little Christian girl.

Of course, I confess that my mythology would still then have the same problem with God having created Eve for Adam instead of someone like Mother Mary. So it probably wouldn't be a convincing mythology either. But at least it might have the potential to be a bit more convincing than what the Hebrews came up with.

There are ways that these fables could have been written to be far more convincing. But alas, that's not the Biblical story. And so it's really not fair for me to go back and fix up all the contradictions and absurdities in this fairytale to try to make it work. If I did that then I would be creating a brand new religion that wouldn't be anywhere near the same as Christianity anyway.

Finally, if I'm going to believe in a mystical God, the Taoists and Buddhists have far more convincing spiritual philosophies. I wouldn't even call them mythologies because they are more like well-thought-out philosophies.

So is it "Game Over" now? Do I win because you failed to convince me of the Biblical God?

Or am I supposed to go over your answers to my concerns one-by-one explaining why I feel that they are each unconvincing?

I will gladly do that if you like. I have very good reasons for rejecting every one of your answers to my concerns.

[coffeem8]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

I love this game Let's keep playin'.

God has never failed, unlike people and satan.

If one were to try and duplicate God, or His story (whether to duplicate it or change it to their own working) one would firsthave to create something. All things, actually! Who is likehim, who has made a system that sustains itself for so long?! Have we forgotten the very thing that we are? Isn't that amazing? Without brains and mouths and everything else that causes us to live, we wouldn't be able to even talk about God or think of him. Praise God

It seems that we are also designed to seek him, whether we accept him or not. That also testifies of him as the source.

Any set of beliefs will adhere to what he has spoken.

We need to do a test, to test his power against the power of another god; and we can let them decide who is god I submit that all gods will confess his Lordship.

I'd be glad to defend the previous answers, if you want.

[Divine Insight]

I love this game Let's keep playin'.

Sure why not.

God has never failed, unlike people and satan.

If there is any truth to this then this would rule out the Biblical myths as having anything to do with God for sure. According to the Bible Satan wins hands down every time and God fails every time.

In the Garden of Eden Satan won by corrupting Adam and Eve against God's wishes. And clearly God's curse against Satan was ineffective since Satan continued to win throughout the rest of the Bible.

If the Biblical God is having a war or a bet against Satan then the Biblical God is clearly losing that bet or war.

Think about it. After Satan beguiled Adam and Eve he then went on to turn every single human against God. Things got so far out of control that God had to flood out all of humanity save for a handful of sinners that God supposedly gave Grace to even without Jesus having been established yet.

If Satan had a bet with God that he could win more souls than God, then clearly Satan won that game right then and there. GAME OVER.

But for some reason the Biblical God refused to admit defeat and kept a few sinners alive on a boat loaded down with animals. But even that didn't help God to win souls. Supposedly Satan continued to win souls even including God's very own Priests and Temple!

The Biblical God was in such a state of desperation that he had to send his son down to earth to try to set things straight. But Satan had such a firm hold on God's priests that Satan even used God's own priest to crucify God's son.

Moreover, this God's only begotten Son even confessed Satan's victory by proclaiming that one a very FEW souls will make it into the Kingdom of God. This means that this Satan fellow must be winning the vast majority of souls that this God creates.

So the Bible is a story where Satan clearly defeats God and wins the vast majority of souls that God creates. Satan's victory is even confirmed by Jesus, this God's only begotten Son.

So it's a story about a "Loser God". A God who clearly looses the overwhelming vast majority of souls that he creates.

Gee whiz, if I were a creator and I was losing the vast majority of souls that I was creator I'd stop creating them until I could find a way to do it better.

If you truly believe that God never fails I'm surprised you aren't a Taoist. The God of Taoism never loses a single solitary soul. Not a one. So why would you believe in the Biblical God that loses the vast majority of souls that he creates when you could believe in the God of Taoism who never loses a single soul?

If one were to try and duplicate God, or His story (whether to duplicate it or change it to their own working) one would first have to create something. All things, actually!

You seem to be assuming here that Hebrew mythology is "God's Story". But why would God be a jealous male-chauvinist who condones slavery and the stoning to death of unruly children? (just to mention a view of his less desirable traits).

Who is like him, who has made a system that sustains itself for so long?! Have we forgotten the very thing that we are? Isn't that amazing? Without brains and mouths and everything else that causes us to live, we wouldn't be able to even talk about God or think of him. Praise God

I think you're missing the point here. There is no more reason to believe that Hebrew mythology correctly describes God than there is to believe that Greek mythology correctly describes God.

I mean, do you believe in Zeus?

It seems that we are also designed to seek him, whether we accept him or not. That also testifies of him as the source.

I don't think so. A lot of atheists who were born atheists and weren't raised in a religious brainwashing environment claim that they never had any reason to even imagine that their might be a God.

Any set of beliefs will adhere to what he has spoken.

Who has spoken? And where did he speak? Hebrew mythology has no more merit than Greek mythology so please don't bother quoting from that mythology like as if it supposed to be "God" speaking.

We need to do a test, to test his power against the power of another god; and we can let them decide who is god I submit that all gods will confess his Lordship.

Well, like I say, the God described by Taoism already surpasses the test by far. Nary a soul is lost. You can't beat that. Also there is no fallen demonic angel in Taoism that is beating God at every drop of the hat.

I'd be glad to defend the previous answers, if you want.

You don't really need to "defend" them. You "Game" is supposed to be to try to convince me to believe in this God. So far you haven't done that. I'm simply explaining why you have failed to convince me.

So with that in mind let's go though your last answers:

*I don't know why God let the serpent go in there.

Well, the Bible claims that God is supposed to be trustworthy. I think it's pretty clear that any God who allows evil serpents into a place where there are totally innocent people who don't know the difference between good and evil is not a trustworthy God.

So the mere fact that this God can't be trusted is a contradiction to the claim by this mythology that this God is trustworthy.

Sounds like an open-and-shut case to me.

Why should I trust a God that I can't trust to protect me from evil when I'm most vulnerable?

The Bible tells me that God is not trustworthy.

*God warned them beforehand, and proved himself faithful to his Word

It would have been a dirty trick on the part of God to allow a serpent to lie to Adam and Eve when Adam and Eve had no knowledge of evil or lying. How could they possibly know that the serpent wasn't telling the truth? They would have no way to even guess.

So this God would not have proven himself to be faithful to his Word, but on the contrary, he would have proven that he is not only untrustworthy but he's actually quite actively devious.

God would be as guilty as Satan in this story.

*The realization of evil caused their nakedness to be evil.

That doesn't wash. Is being naked evil or not? Realization of evil cannot make something evil if it's not already evil.

*ask a serpent if the curse was effective! Lol. God considered it fair enough

But the Biblical story has this Satan continuing to corrupt souls on a major scale clear through the Bible. The fact that God had to later create a Great Flood to drown all the evil-doers is a testament that the curse was a complete failure.

*This whole issue is still being resolved.

And that just proves my point that this God could never solve a problem. The problems are still waiting for a resolution.

*What eve did was a factor in each and every drama we face today.. so the curse is a reminder

Where does it say this in the fairytale?

Also, I personally think it's a pretty hideous and sick reminder. All it reminds me of is the fact that if a God did this he's one sick puppy.

*Should the creator allow the creation to use itself against himself?Let's pin the blame where it belongs on Satan's perversion of Gods plan.

In a reality that was entirely created by a creator there can only be one person to blame for everything. And that would be the creator himself. No creation of his can be held responsible for what this God had created.

Again, if you want a religious philosophy that doesn't have these kinds of problems try Taoism. In Taoism the creator is totally responsible for everything. There is no need for any Satan onto which to lay the burden of blame.

*There was no provision for forgiveness in this case, because number one, there wasn't supposed to be a rebellion, and number two, God WAS merciful while also faithful to his word.

What do you mean there wasn't supposed to be a rebellion? Do you mean that this creator God was shocked by the fall from grace and never expected it could happen?

Sounds like a truly unprepared God who isn't even ready to handle unpredictable results.

So you're not selling this Biblical God myth very well.

*In order for Jesus' role to come into play, many things had to happen first. They had to wait.

Again, this would just be a God who wasn't prepared in the beginning. An untrustworthy God who has no clue what he's going and apparently just tries to fix things on the fly with no success I might add.

It's a very poorly written mythology. I can't imagine why anyone would think this is the story of an actual omniscience God. You aren't convincing me to believe in this mythology at all. As far as I can see it has no more merit than Greek mythology.

*Gods creation of eve was and is sufficient for man. Satan's use of Gods creation is unwholesome.

Well God should have never left Satan into the garden. That was God's big mistake. And proves to us that this God is untrustworthy.

We should call for a retrial. I think Adam and Eve should have been acquitted. Eve confessed everything to God and even ratted on Satan. She did everything that a good little Christian girl is supposed to do. She should have been handed Grace on a silver platter right then and there and won salvation for all humanity.

This God's reaction to Eve's honesty is disgusting and totally unwarranted.

Why should anyone trust a God that you can't even be honest with?

If you're honest with this God he'll curse you and treat you meanly for thousands of generations.

I think it's a horrible fairytale, and I not only don't see any reason to believe it, but I can't even imagine wanting to believe it as a matter of pure faith. I would actually prefer that the fairytale is false.

So NO SALE on convincing me of the the believability of it.

And NO SALE on even inspiring me to want to believe it on pure faith.

I hope this is one of those interactive games where there are no winners or losers because otherwise I think you're going to lose this game in a major way.

You haven't convinced me that the Bible has anything to do with any God, nor have you convinced me that I should even want it to believe it's true.

[coffeem8]

[Replying to post 6 by Divine Insight]

God is God. He is worthy of adoration; if a soul chooses to despise him, he will allow that soul to depart.

Noah chose to honor God in all his thoughts. If he and his family had not, then there would have been no people left at all.

God has never ever failed. He sees things entirely, literally and figuratively from above! We see in part. Time is no concern of his, and satan can have all who choose his ways. God is not frightened of satan, god is not threatened by satan.

On the subject of Eve:
She was warned. She was perfectly protected until she disregarded Gods instruction.

On the subject of Taoism:
Whatsoever is not of God is sin

On the subject of Zeus:
He is defeated along with his master


As far as winning the game, there are two options; win/win or lose/lose.
God already owns what is his, so there's no loss to him. He would that none perish, and he has made a way for any who will. Bottom line, no excuses at the end.

So if it is true, (and you know I believe it) then when we choose to disregard him, we are making a very large decision. Since He has not lied, take heed before you doubt, please!

It is written, no man cometh to the father but by me. (Spoken by Jesus) so if one has tried to approach or call out to God without first believing on his son Jesus, then this is why He has not yet received you. The things of God are spiritually discerned, so, even though we can make a decision for Christ by the choice of mind, we need not to expect that our minds can fully comprehend the whole deal of God.

God wants you to accept the gift of salvation that he has provided..

See, the thing is, that whether or not one accepts him as Lord, one is still subject to his laws. Each thing we commit that is contrary to one of his laws has a direct consequence, and unless your sin is forgiven, you are under that curse. And its not Gods fault.. its our own. Yeah, satan tempted us, and as soon as we succumbed he enjoyed the act very much. But when it comes time for the penalty, he's nowhere to be found and we bear the shame ourself.

[Zzyzx]

.

Let's play a game.. you tell me why you don't believe in God, and I will attempt to change your mind!

As an observer it does not appear to me as though you and your "god" are doing very well in convincing anyone -- and are not faring very well in discussion with Divine Insight.

You have made a lot of CLAIMS about your favorite "god" but have not provided evidence that those claims are anything more than overworked imagination, conjecture, opinion and unverifiable ancient tales.

Do you have anything substantive to offer -- or is the "game" just more religious babble / platitudes / beliefs / sermons -- perhaps suitable for Sunday school classes?

God is God.

The bible God is just one of thousands proposed, worshiped, loved, feared, promoted by humans.

He is worthy of adoration;

Why is any one of the thousands of proposed "gods" more worthy of adoration than any others?

What makes the god you promote worthy of "adoration?"

Noah chose to honor God in all his thoughts. If he and his family had not, then there would have been no people left at all.

So goes the tale about a supposed worldwide flood that cannot be shown to be anything more than imaginary.

God has never ever failed.

According to scripture wasn't "God" unable to defeat an army that had iron chariots? “And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.� —Judges 1:19

He sees things entirely, literally and figuratively from above!

Kindly demonstrate that this is more than conjecture, opinion or hearsay.

It is written, no man cometh to the father but by me.

By whom, exactly, was that written? When? Where?

(Spoken by Jesus)

Are all words attributed to Jesus accurately and truthfully recorded by the anonymous bible writers decades, generations or centuries after the words were supposedly spoken?

God wants you to accept the gift of salvation that he has provided..

Supposedly the same "God" has consigned most of humanity to hell (which he provided for those who do not worship him).

See, the thing is, that whether or not one accepts him as Lord, one is still subject to his laws.

That is the chant of God worshipers; however, it is just their opinion based on the opinion of ancient unidentified writers of bible tales.

Each thing we commit that is contrary to one of his laws has a direct consequence, and unless your sin is forgiven, you are under that curse.

Some religionists believe this, others do not, non-believers have no reason to regard it as anything more than religious propaganda.

And its not Gods fault.. its our own. Yeah, satan tempted us, and as soon as we succumbed he enjoyed the act very much. But when it comes time for the penalty, he's nowhere to be found and we bear the shame ourself.

Is the "penalty" an "after you die" threat?

That requires that humans possess a "soul" (which has not been verified) that transcends death into an "afterlife" (that has not been verified).

[coffeem8]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

Hey

God is God. I am the evidence, along with all his other creations. Yay!

If you can explain joy, what its made of, where it comes from, where it goes when one is sad, then you could also free the world of wondering about god and whether he exists! Thats just a quick for instance. Faith doesn't answer to text books or charts, and God doesn't need documentation to make himself feel secure. The scripture has been given to us for our benefit, take it or leave it. I know that if one confesses Jesus as the son of God and asks him to come into their heart as Lord and Savior they will not doubt that he is real, and they will understand the love of the Father. I know this because it happened to me. As for requiring proof beforehand, well, there's no proof he is not what he claims to be.

Conversations like this one are and have been taking place for a very long time.. there must be something important about it, something striking enough that compells people to actively support or deny the existence of God and his sovereignty. Interesting..

Here's an example of how people are subject to the Word; this is one of many warnings.

For the ways of man are before the Lord, and he pondereth all his goings. His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be held with the cords of his sin. Pro 5:21 & 22

Ya know, we people do things and make things and congratulate ourselves and each other on jobs well done. Why not praise God for his works? If there is another god who claims the workmanship of each and every thing, I've never heard of him. Is there another?

There are many manifestations of curses in peoples lives.. disease, mental problems, poverty and lack, destruction of things and relationships. Are any of us facing those things today? Let's get free.

So, if one tells me that they do not believe in God because
here is no evidence, I tell that one, there is no evidence that disproves him. I ask that one, where is there no evidence of him?

Folks, in 2003, I made the decision to read and then observe the bible, to see if itbwerevtrue and good.. it is.

This is how I know.

[coffeem8]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

Hey

God is God. I am the evidence, along with all his other creations. Yay!

If you can explain joy, what its made of, where it comes from, where it goes when one is sad, then you could also free the world of wondering about god and whether he exists! Thats just a quick for instance. Faith doesn't answer to text books or charts, and God doesn't need documentation to make himself feel secure. The scripture has been given to us for our benefit, take it or leave it. I know that if one confesses Jesus as the son of God and asks him to come into their heart as Lord and Savior they will not doubt that he is real, and they will understand the love of the Father. I know this because it happened to me. As for requiring proof beforehand, well, there's no proof he is not what he claims to be.

Conversations like this one are and have been taking place for a very long time.. there must be something important about it, something striking enough that compells people to actively support or deny the existence of God and his sovereignty. Interesting..

Here's an example of how people are subject to the Word; this is one of many warnings.

For the ways of man are before the Lord, and he pondereth all his goings. His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be held with the cords of his sin. Pro 5:21 & 22

Ya know, we people do things and make things and congratulate ourselves and each other on jobs well done. Why not praise God for his works? If there is another god who claims the workmanship of each and every thing, I've never heard of him. Is there another?

There are many manifestations of curses in peoples lives.. disease, mental problems, poverty and lack, destruction of things and relationships. Are any of us facing those things today? Let's get free.

So, if one tells me that they do not believe in God because
here is no evidence, I tell that one, there is no evidence that disproves him. I ask that one, where is there no evidence of him?

Folks, in 2003, I made the decision to read and then observe the bible, to see if itbwerevtrue and good.. it is.

This is how I know.