I've come for you

[coffeem8]

Hey y'all

Let's play a game.. you tell me why you don't believe in God, and I will attempt to change your mind!

If you already believe in God + Jesus, we can talk about that, too

Yay! It'll be fun, lol

[coffeem8]

[Replying to post 44 by Anarchist]

Hello welcome to the game


This discussion is concerned mainly with your soul.

I'm interested in what you have to say, so feel free to elaborate!

sincerely, me

[coffeem8]

Here on my Android phone, and with all tenacity, I type with two thumbs, which are getting quite strong...

Auto correct is my worst enema.



Be advised!! Lol


(I wish I could claim origination of that enema joke, but it belongs to someone else)




Note to all: I have read the rules. I speak in my own natural conversation, in a section titled general discussion...

Discernment is a spiritual gift, useful in differentiation and available to Believers in Jesus the Son of God..

[OnceConvinced]

In my thoughts, I resigned myself to the belief that my life was ordained to be

Appreciate you telling your story. I have heard many similar testimonies during the 40 years I was in churches.

For me I came to the point that I just had to accept that what I'd believed for so long... the Jesus I had trusted for so long... the bible I had believed was God's word for so long, just wasn't all it was cracked up to be. It was a hard realisation to come to, but one I have now learnt to accept.

[OnceConvinced]

What he said was, "lust! Come out in the name of Jesus! "

And right then my knees buckled as if they were never there... I hit the ground like someone pushed me to my knees... Up from my stomach, or lungs IDK came something IDK what... It shot five feet out from me, and all I could do was gasp for breath in between these manifestations.... For thirty minutes this continued.

This is where I start to question exactly what happened. I'm guessing you had a psychological reaction here as lust is not something that can just be cast out of a human being. It's not a demon. It is something that is naturally within us, being sexual creatures. It's also in the animal kingdom too. It is part of our human nature, and as such can't just be yanked out. Lust will continue to happen. It's how you react to those feelings of lust that are the issue.

You see, I could not deny what had happened to me.

A lot of people claim to experience supernatural events. It happens all over the world no matter what your religion. What I have learnt is that humans can be very deluded and that they can convince themselves of things if they really want to believe it. So whenever someone says something like "i could not deny what had happened to me" I take it with a grain of salt.

This is why salvation is so important, because a saved, sealed spirit cannot be inhabited by evil spirits... the difference between 'opressed' and 'possessed."

I no longer believe in evil spooks or anything like that. I see no need for imaginary enemies. What people call demons, I see now as either our natural human tendencies (like lust, envy, jealousy) or mental imbalances and illnesses.

So this IS why the church is failing, because it is refusing to do the works of Jesus,and those works are the only way to be powerful in Him. Makes sense...

It's not just the church failing. It's Christianity. And if God was real and Jesus was a live, it would be them failing too. It's like when a business goes down, it's not just because of the employees. In fact if anything it's more likely to be as a result of bad management.

As for you, once convinced, please think on this....

When your faith was faltering, you came here to this website where the message of hope is discredited and disallowed- is it any wonder you were swayed in this direction?

I knew that going only to Christians would just give me a biased view. I would be hearing nothing I hadn't already heard a hundred times or believed myself. I had been a Christian for over 30 years. I had been in a position of leadership. There aren't too many people who have been in it longer than me, so it was unlikely they were going to be able to offer me anything that would help. I did not want to hear just one side of the story either. I wanted to hear arguments from both sides. I wanted to see which arguments held up. I wanted to challenge what I had believed for so many years.

is it any wonder you were swayed in this direction?

It's definitely no wonder, because Christian arguments are so very very weak. They just didn't stand up to the challenges. Coming to a site like this helped me to realise that. Christians were just unable to give rational and logical answers to my questions and the questions of other sceptics.

Reality tends to trump fantasy. So, yes, it's no wonder I was swayed away from Christian fantasies into the real world.

You would rather I surrounded myself with Christians, who continually validate each other's beliefs, while ignoring or trying to justify the issues. However, I'm not going to do that. Remember I was in churches, in that Christian bubble for 40 years, so what good did it do me? The fact that Christians can't adequately answer the tough questions proves to me that Christianity is not all it's cracked up to be.

No, I won't just go to the biased Christians. It's no wonder I was a Christian for so many years because I only surrounded myself with other Christians, having them validate my beliefs. I was locked into a protective Christian bubble. Coming here was definitely the right decision, because Christians don't just get to preach. They get to be challenged. All beliefs get to be challenged here, unlike on Christians sites. On Christian sites anyone who challenges fiercely held beliefs gets shut down immediately.

[coffeem8]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]


So, was your church a church that also ministered deliverance? Since you say that lust is not a spirit that can be cast out of someone. What were some of your experiences with deliverance? [/quote]

[coffeem8]

@ once convinced:

"What I have learnt is that humans can be very deluded and that they can convince themselves of things if they really want to believe it. So whenever someone says something like "i could not deny what had happened to me" I take it with a grain of salt. "

-Once Convinced


So, that works both ways, and is an agreement that delusion is a very real possibility.

Here I am, taking your words seriously.. Should I take them with a grain of salt instead?

And are you saying that what you have said is irrelevant, because it happened to you, therefore becoming ubelieveable?

No, you're probably OK with trusting in what happened to you, because you were there, and you know that it happened.

--------

Well I was present when I got deliverance, and not delusional.

What's more is this: what I'm saying is that JESUS STILL DOES MIRACLES TODAY.. People need the miracles, they need help..

Admittedly some people here on this site seem to have the most wonderful life imaginable, portrayed with a false, fellow human-loving disguise and protected by the most hateful attitudes I have ever had the pleasure of encountering.

Were the Christians in your fellowship like this? It must have been bad, for this treatment to become more comfortable.. I have a neice in law, whose mother is very hurtful and negligent toward her.. My neice Now spends hours at the grave site of her grandmother; It Lets me know how bad things are at home, for a cold bench beside a grave to become more welcoming than home.

but what about the people who are in need? In church the prayers were like, "Oh Lord, heal such and such, if it be your will. "

Of course it's his will!! Have you ever thought about that? That we were supposed to use the gift of healing on them instead of just saying those types of prayers.

We were s'posed to obey the word, oc. That's where the breakdown occurred.

-----------

I visited your site. That wrestler guy Is. Not. Jesus.

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So, how has your life improved, since you turned from God to explore these new possibilities?

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]


So, was your church a church that also ministered deliverance? Since you say that lust is not a spirit that can be cast out of someone. What were some of your experiences with deliverance?

I have been in Pentecostal churches in the past where such exorcisms were attempted regularly. I have even prayed over people and did the whole spiritual warfare thing, trying to cast out similar types of spirits. I have been in large rooms full of people doing spiritual warfare with people screaming and thrashing about like there was some kind of demon inside them upset. In a prayer meeting once, I even prayed over my uncle, casting out spirits in Jesus name. He was twisting and turning, and bugging his eyes and groaning as if he were possessed. However, I no longer believe he was demon possessed (nor do I believe any of the others were either). I have other theories for that, which are way more convincing to me.

It's very easy to say "come out spirit of whatever" and then claim the person to be set free later. But to actually prove that something was really cast out is another matter altogether. I have been part of a church where a so-called demon was regularly manifesting in a woman during worship sessions. This was when I was 16 years old. I left home shortly after and was told by my mother a few months later that the woman had been completely set free. However a few weeks later that old pesky demon was back again.

There is only two possible conclusions I can come to now about that. Either demons have developed an immunity to the name of Jesus over the years or there was no demon and the woman was simply mentally ill. The most obvious answer to me is that the woman was mentally ill and mental illnesses cannot be healed by casting out imaginary demons.

[coffeem8]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

That's really interesting. Awful, but interesting, right!?

I've heard of those types of meetings, with the thrashing and screaming... Never attended one, and hope to never see one, honestly.

The pastor that ministered to me was surprised that I was delivered so quickly, without screaming. .. Well, all those years between 2003- 2013, I would confess my sins over and over to Jesus (I thought maybe I'd forgotten one) so when the ministry started, I was already in agreement with the Word, and the spirits already had no legal right. I just didn't know they were in there.

Since I believe the Bible, I always compare what I study with that, to see if it lines up or not. Other than personal study online, and my own testimony I told you, I've never had any experience in a meeting. I listen to the same pastor that ministered to me every Friday online, and I listen to various ministers online Monday-thursday.

When I minister to people, they don't scream and thrash. I always begin with renunciation prayers, leading the person to renounce the agreement with the spirit. It's all about free will- an evil spirit cannot afflict a person without a legal right. This in my opinion is why some people cannot seem to be delivered, because they are either still in agreement, or there is a remaining ancestral curse. When the spirit leaves, it leaves by yawning, burping, crying, spitting/ vomiting sneezing, in all cases that I've encountered. I've only been involved since 2013, though, so maybe The Lord just knows I'm not ready to handle such violent manifestations.

One other interesting point is, that in all other ministries I've learned under (in agreement with The Word) , the ministers had received deliverance themselves before performing deliverance on others.. I am wondering how it was when you yourself received deliverance?

[OnceConvinced]

And are you saying that what you have said is irrelevant, because it happened to you, therefore becoming ubelieveable?

Sorry, where did I say something was irrelevent?

What's more is this: what I'm saying is that JESUS STILL DOES MIRACLES TODAY..

I see no evidence of miracles being done today, let alone by someone called Jesus. Muslims and people of other religions claim miracles by their God's too.

I hear many claims, but when they describe these so-called miracles they don't really seem that miraculous. Usually there's some possible natural cause that can be attributed to it (eg cancer going into remission). Also there are a lot of con-artists out there and a lot of liars.

For me, the benchmark for miracles was the resurrection of Jesus. If someone who could be shown as having been genuinely dead and buried for a few days (not just a few minutes on an operating table) and who is then resurrected to life would be a bonafide miracle, because it could not be faked and it would have to be a supernatural event. There is no way you could bring up any possibilities of natural causes.

That is the benchmark. Anything less than that is not much of a miracle, especially when natural explanations can be given.

Admittedly some people here on this site seem to have the most wonderful life imaginable, portrayed with a false, fellow human-loving disguise and protected by the most hateful attitudes I have ever had the pleasure of encountering.

Were the Christians in your fellowship like this?

I have been in leadership roles in churches. It was very eye opening. I learnt that a lot of Christians were wishy washy, that they needed a lot of guidance from other Christians. I learnt that many of their lives were unremarkable and that in fact many of them were messed up and miserable.

What I learnt that the so-called joy of the lord was not present in most Christian and that the holy spirit didn't seem to be guiding anyone.

but what about the people who are in need? In church the prayers were like, "Oh Lord, heal such and such, if it be your will. "

I don't see prayer as being the answer. I see getting off ones butt and taking action being the answer. That is the only way needs get met is when people take action and often it has to be the needy one who takes that action. I learnt that the hard way as a Christian. Sitting around praying and begging God for help didn't work. Taking action did.

Of course it's his will!! Have you ever thought about that? That we were supposed to use the gift of healing on them instead of just saying those types of prayers.

Which of my comments are you replying to here? Using the quote function better may help.

We were s'posed to obey the word, oc. That's where the breakdown occurred.

What breakdown are you talking about? Disobeying God was never an issue when it came to my faith crumbling.

I visited your site. That wrestler guy Is. Not. Jesus.

What are you talking about there? Are you talking about the Ultimate Warrior? He was greater than Jesus! If it is him you're talking about I think you missed the point of that blog.

So, how has your life improved, since you turned from God to explore these new possibilities?

Firstly let's get one thing clear, I did not turn from God. I came to a horrible and inescapable conclusion that the God I was worshiping didn't actually exist and that I had been living a lie for 40 years. Turning from God would insinuate some kind of rebellion on my part, which was definitely not the case. I fought and fought against my disbelief.

As for how my life has improved. In many ways:

I can now:
• Create my own purposes in life
• Accept others for who they are. I no longer condemn atheists, witches, gays and other minority groups.
• Accept hardships and trials for what they are - a consequence of evolution.
• Accept myself for who I am. I no longer have to beat myself up over human nature.
• Be moral because it's important to me, not to earn Brownie points from God. (and yes my morals are still intact, despite supposedly being manipulated by the devil as many Christians would like to believe)
• Be free of religious rituals like attending church, prayer, communion, quiet times, bible study etc.
• Live life to its fullest not having to worry about pleasing an imaginary, wrathful, vengeful, sadistic, genicidal, misogynist God.

And one of the greatest things at the moment is that 8 months ago I met a wonderful atheist woman who has come from a Catholic background and we agree on everything. She is far better for me than any of the Christian women I have been involved with in the past. She has far stronger morals and principles and way more caring and considerate than any of the Christian women I've been with. Plus I know I will never have to worry about her cheating on me like my Christian wife did. If it wasn't for me being an atheist now we would never have even met!

[OnceConvinced]

That's really interesting. Awful, but interesting, right!?

I found it exciting. I truly believed I was a warrior for God thick in the middle of the battle. It was a huge boost of faith for me at the time.

The pastor that ministered to me was surprised that I was delivered so quickly, without screaming.

So this pastor told you you had a spirit of lust in you and then cast it out. Ouila! gone! No doubt he could have told you, you had a spirit of Oompa Loompa in you and cast that out too.

How do you know this spirit was in you?
How do you know it's actually gone?
Does this mean you never have any lustful thoughts anymore?

Since I believe the Bible, I always compare what I study with that, to see if it lines up or not.

This is what I learnt to do too, however the problem is the bible can be taken many different ways and there is no way to know for sure whether your interpretation of it is in fact the correct one.

When I minister to people, they don't scream and thrash.

Only happened for me in the 80s. Seems like there was a fad going on then. The whole thing is about the power of suggestion. People think things should be a certain way, its engrained in to them because they see it happening regularly, and then they react to it subconsciously. Often it's not intended to deceive. The whole "being slain in the holy spirit" is a classic example of the power of suggestion in progress.

One other interesting point is, that in all other ministries I've learned under (in agreement with The Word) , the ministers had received deliverance themselves before performing deliverance on others.. I am wondering how it was when you yourself received deliverance?

Oh I had been through those types of prayers too, but my mind was not that fickle and the power of suggestion was less likely to affect me, so I just stand there while people cast so-called demons out of me. I guess I was one of the ones that was delivered without kicking and screaming, much like you.

Of course now I see it all as pure fantasy. There are no demons to be cast out of anyone.