Judge not, that you be not judged

[Zzyzx]

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"Judge not, that you be not judged" ( Matthew 7:1) does NOT require a supernatural judge

A person who is prone to look for the ‘sins’ of others is likely to also look at their own ‘sins’ and judge themselves.

[Divine Insight]

I totally agree. In fact, this teaching is actually taught in Buddhism as well. Only in Buddhism the meaning that you take from it is made clear. It's not saying that if you don't judge others some God won't judge you.

But that is what it is taken to mean in Christianity. In Christianity they imagine a God who is keeping track of every thought and action of every individual and on judgement day they will be judged based on these scriptural decrees.

I personally "Believe in Jesus". That is to say that I believe there actually was a rebel Jew who learned the wisdom of Buddhism and was trying to bring that wisdom into the religion of his Jewish culture. Many of the sayings that have been attributed to Jesus have parallels in Buddhism. Of course, just as in the example above, they are viewed quite differently in this two cultural religions. In Buddhism they are seen as obvious wisdom concerning obvious "karma". That is to say karma as actual cause and effect in this life.

But in Christianity all of this wisdom has been twisted to be viewed by an imaginary judgmental God. So the meanings have become extremely different.

This is why when speaking with a Christian theist we need to consider the perspective from which they are viewing all of this. They can't see the practical reality of the actual wisdom because they are already assuming that this refers to how some external God will judge them. So they are locked into that perspective.

[benchwarmer]

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"Judge not, that you be not judged" ( Matthew 7:1) does NOT require a supernatural judge

A person who is prone to look for the ‘sins’ of others is likely to also look at their own ‘sins’ and judge themselves.

This 'wisdom' also neatly destroys all rules from God. i.e. if God has to judge you in the end, then He Himself will be judged. The other way to take this is that we have another blaring contradiction in the Bible or another perfect example of the "do as I say, not as I do" description of this god.

If this god is going to follow its own rules then it is incapable of judging anyone. If it's not going to follow it's own rules then it is immoral and the worst kind of leader imaginable. Take your pick.

[Goat]

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"Judge not, that you be not judged" ( Matthew 7:1) does NOT require a supernatural judge

A person who is prone to look for the ‘sins’ of others is likely to also look at their own ‘sins’ and judge themselves.

I think that it is important to look at the line in context. Let's look at the next bunch of lines

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

It means that if you judge someone, people will judge you using the same criteria that you are judging other, and you should make sure you work on your own faults before complaining about other people's faults.

[William]

Goat: I think that it is important to look at the line in context.

The Script:

• 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
  
  2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
  
  3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
  
  4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
  
  5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
  
  6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Goat: It means that if you judge someone, people will judge you using the same criteria that you are judging other, and you should make sure you work on your own faults before complaining about other people's faults.

William: It goes deeper than that even. It means developing a non-judgmental attitude and position in order to see through the illusion that judgmentalism creates, whether it derives from theists or non-theists, the judgmental are entwined within each others dramas - all with axes to grind.

[tam]

Peace to you,

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"Judge not, that you be not judged" ( Matthew 7:1) does NOT require a supernatural judge

A person who is prone to look for the ‘sins’ of others is likely to also look at their own ‘sins’ and judge themselves.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but in my experience, it is just the opposite. A person who is prone to looking for the sins of others is less likely to look for (and see) their own sins. They are too busy pointing their fingers at others, perhaps thinking, 'at least I'm not a sinner like that person' or even 'at least I'm not as bad a sinner as that person'. Think about the Pharisee who prayed to God and gave thanks that he was not like all those other sinners; verses the sinner who acknowledged that he was a sinner and prayed for God to have mercy on him.


Someone who is genuinely looking in the mirror (instead of pointing fingers) is less likely to judge others - because a) they would know that they are also sinners and they have no right to judge others. Hard to be self-righteous when you can see your own sins. And b) - at least for someone who believes in Christ: they should understand that "by the measure you use, it will be used against you." Unless we are without sin ourselves, we best not be judging anyone else for their sins. This is one of the reasons Christ said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Christ could have cast that stone - being without sin Himself - but He showed mercy instead (which is what God desires). So for a Christian, that is yet another example of what we (who are in Christ) must do.

This is also why benchwarmer is mistaken above, about God. Even going by these standards, God (and His Son) can judge - they are the only ones who can.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Divine Insight]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but in my experience, it is just the opposite. A person who is prone to looking for the sins of others is less likely to look for (and see) their own sins. They are too busy pointing their fingers at others, perhaps thinking, 'at least I'm not a sinner like that person' or even 'at least I'm not as bad a sinner as that person'. Think about the Pharisee who prayed to God and gave thanks that he was not like all those other sinners; verses the sinner who acknowledged that he was a sinner and prayed for God to have mercy on him.

Thanks for pointing exactly how Christians view this Tam. For them, it's all about being judged by an imaginary God. They apparently can't see the true wisdom here because they are too lost in the idea that some God is going to be passing judgement on them.

[tam]

Peace again to you,

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but in my experience, it is just the opposite. A person who is prone to looking for the sins of others is less likely to look for (and see) their own sins. They are too busy pointing their fingers at others, perhaps thinking, 'at least I'm not a sinner like that person' or even 'at least I'm not as bad a sinner as that person'. Think about the Pharisee who prayed to God and gave thanks that he was not like all those other sinners; verses the sinner who acknowledged that he was a sinner and prayed for God to have mercy on him.

Thanks for pointing exactly how Christians view this Tam. For them, it's all about being judged by an imaginary God. They apparently can't see the true wisdom here because they are too lost in the idea that some God is going to be passing judgement on them.

Are you sure you are not seeing what you want (or expect) to see?

Your summary was not the point.

I thought my point was pretty simple: people who are prone to look for others' sins tend to miss their own sins; just as judgmental people tend to judge everyone except themselves. Some even use others' sins to make themselves feel righteous (self-righteous), and to avoid looking in the mirror.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I don't know. I've met many judgmental people and many are hypocritical.

[Divine Insight]

Are you sure you are not seeing what you want (or expect) to see?

I can absolutely guarantee you that I'm not seeing what I want. Because I really have no specific desired outcome concerning this particular topic. Nor do I have any expectations. I simply accept what's shown to be obvious.

I thought my point was pretty simple:

Yes, it absolutely was. In fact it was so simple that it appears you are ignoring a lot of pertinent known facts.

people who are prone to look for others' sins tend to miss their own sins; just as judgmental people tend to judge everyone except themselves. Some even use others' sins to make themselves feel righteous (self-righteous), and to avoid looking in the mirror.

You are making a naive speculated assumption here. You have no idea what goes on in the minds of people who judge others. However psychologists do have an idea. And what the psychologists know that you appear to be ignoring is that people who judge others actually do judge themselves simultaneously without even realizing it. It's all done subconsciously. So people who judge others do judge themselves more harshly on a subconscious level. The fact that they are clueless about this on a conscious level is basically irrelevant.

You seem to think that people who judge others are somehow doing this with a fully conscious understanding of what they are doing. But that is far from the case.