Debate Challenge 2.. mystical experience

[Swami]

My first debate challenge was if religious and mystical experiences can convince an atheist to move to theism. The atheists and skeptics agreed with me.

It appears the next question skeptics want to bring up is the validity of the mystical experience. I am willing to debate anyone on this matter. But I only want to focus on the experience of transcending self. I accept that this is the most important experience that anyone can have and this is why I am willing to debate it.

Debate challenge:
Mystical experiences. Real or hallucinations?

Rules:
Both participants get 3 posts each. My posts would be my opening, counter response, and conclusion.

Two week duration.

Who will accept?

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to post 1 by Swami]

Before I agree to engage in a debate, would you please clarify something for me? If the "self" is an illusion that can be transcended, who or what is doing the transcending of the self?

[Swami]

[Replying to post 1 by Swami]

Before I agree to engage in a debate, would you please clarify something for me? If the "self" is an illusion that can be transcended, who or what is doing the transcending of the self?

Here is the experience in detail.

Under certain circumstances, the subjective sense of one’s self as an isolated entity can temporarily fade into an experience of unity with other people or one’s surroundings, involving the dissolution of boundaries between the sense of self and “other.� Such transient mental states of decreased self-salience and increased feelings of connectedness are described here as self-transcendent experiences(STEs). These temporary mental states are proposed to be experienced along a spectrum of intensity that ranges from the routine (e.g., losing yourself in music or a book), to the intense and potentially transformative (e.g., feeling connected to everything and everyone), to states in between, like those experienced by many people while meditating or when feeling awe.

Mystical experiences are a particularly intense variety of STE. Some people report that during mystical experiences the sense of self can fall away entirely, creating a distinction-less sense of unity with one’s surroundings (Hood, 2002; James, 1902; Newberg & d’Aquili, 2000; Stace, 1960), though descriptions of mystical experiences also appear to vary across cultural contexts (Katz, 1978). James (1902) noted that mystical experiences involved: transiency (they are brief), ineffability (they are difficult or impossible to fully describe in language), passivity (they feel overwhelming), and have a noetic quality (they feel real; Yaden et al., 2017). In addition to the dramatic changes to one’s sense of self, mystical experiences can change other fundamental aspects of consciousness, such as the senses of time and space (Hood, 1975; James, 1902; MacLean, Leou

The Varieties of Self-Transcendent Experience in Review of General Psychology (American Psychological Association)[/quote]

I was home alone, walking through the living room, not thinking of anything in particular, when suddenly my consciousness erupted. It no longer ended at the surface of my body but expanded outward, filling the surrounding space. I experienced everything around me as inside me and absolutely identical to myself. I was no longer Linda Johnsen; I was everything. The bliss of that single moment was beyond description.

It wasn’t “as if� I was the universe. I really “was� the universe. It happened spontaneously, and even though it only lasted a few seconds, I emerged from it changed forever. Any confidence I had in the materialistic scientific paradigm collapsed. So did my naive belief that heaven—the most joyful place I’d heard of before that moment—was a physical site with streets paved in gold. I suddenly understood that the entire universe is held within an all-pervading, blissful awareness. It’s useless for you to argue that I must have been hallucinating or having some kind of epileptic fit. The experience was real. In fact, it was far more vivid than everyday reality and it set me on a lifelong quest to understand exactly what had happened and how I could make it happen again.

The flash of “cosmic consciousness� I experienced when I was 14 happens more seldom than the first two states of mystical consciousness just described, but bring up the subject in a large group and you’ll almost certainly find at least one person who’s had the experience. In this state the boundary between “self� and “other� dissolves and your individual consciousness merges with the living reality of everything around you, animate and inanimate. There’s a profound sense of coming home, of returning to a unity you suddenly “knew all along� was there, as if you’ve just awakened from a dream.

https://yogainternational.com/article/v ... xperiences

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to post 3 by Swami]

I've had this experience myself but cannot rule-out the possibility that it was a product of my imagination rather than actual transcendence of self. Have you ruled-out that possibility? If so, what ruled it out?

[Swami]

[Replying to post 3 by Swami]

I've had this experience myself but cannot rule-out the possibility that it was a product of my imagination rather than actual transcendence of self. Have you ruled-out that possibility? If so, what ruled it out?

I have. There is reason to doubt even the ordinary waking experience but I do not doubt my transcendent experiences. If you disagree then we will have to debate.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to post 3 by Swami]

I've had this experience myself but cannot rule-out the possibility that it was a product of my imagination rather than actual transcendence of self. Have you ruled-out that possibility? If so, what ruled it out?

I have. There is reason to doubt even the ordinary waking experience but I do not doubt my transcendent experiences. If you disagree then we will have to debate.

I don't know if I disagree yet as more information is required. Therefore, my request for additional information from you doesn't really qualify as a debate. Would you agree to call it a conversation instead?

[Swami]

[Replying to post 3 by Swami]

I've had this experience myself but cannot rule-out the possibility that it was a product of my imagination rather than actual transcendence of self. Have you ruled-out that possibility? If so, what ruled it out?

I have. There is reason to doubt even the ordinary waking experience but I do not doubt my transcendent experiences. If you disagree then we will have to debate.

I don't know if I disagree yet as more information is required. Therefore, my request for additional information from you doesn't really qualify as a debate. Would you agree to call it a conversation instead?

I don't want to offer all of the details here because it will turn into the same debate in the head to head section. I want to debate the skeptics who say the experiences are not real - as in they are nothing more than hallucinations. There were plenty of these skeptics in the science section.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 7 by Swami]

I can't see how anyone can prove or disprove your experience, except on the basis of their own bias that such things are impossible. Even pronouncing something "impossible" is very much a statement of faith, since nobody can prove something is impossible, only infrequent.

On what basis can anyone debate someone's personal experience?

JW

[Swami]

[Replying to post 7 by Swami]

I can't see how anyone can prove or disprove your experience, except on the basis of their own bias that such things are impossible. Even pronouncing something "impossible" is very much a statement of faith, since nobody can prove something is impossible, only infrequent.

On what basis can anyone debate someone's personal experience?

JW

. The type of experience in the topic has some objective basis. The debate will be my task to show how or why the experience is objectively real

[Divine Insight]

The type of experience in the topic has some objective basis. The debate will be my task to show how or why the experience is objectively real

Sorry Swami, scientists have already shown your argument to be false. So there's nothing to debate. You really need to look into these things before offering to debate them.

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