Simulation Argument for a Non-Existent Christian God

[bluegreenearth]

Thanks to innovations in computer technology, we have the capacity to simulate a variety of real-world objects and events in virtual environments. One of the main reasons for utilizing this capability is to test the functionality and safety of a variety of things we've designed prior to constructing those things in reality where the risks are more costly in term of materials, labor, and human life in some circumstances. For example, engineers can test a bridge design in a computer simulation before it is built to determine if will remain sturdy or collapse under a variety of expected conditions.

We have also developed advanced computer software that can only be described as artificial intelligence which functions at a non-sentient level. Artificial intelligence is currently being used to make reliably accurate predictions in business, global politics, medicine, astronomy, and a host of other applications. It is possible that artificial intelligence could one day be programmed with an ability to make free-will decisions.

Given that we have been able to achieve these technological advantages using our own intellect and ingenuity, it is only reasonable to assume the Christian God must certainly have a far greater capability to create maximally advanced simulations that include artificial intelligence or even artificial life. As such, we must ask why God did not utilize his maximally advanced technology to test his design of humanity in the form of a simulation where no one would actually exist or actually experience suffering prior to creating humanity in the reality where we perceive ourselves to exist. By doing so, God could have chosen to bring into reality only those virtual people from the simulation that used their simulated freewill to satisfy God's plan without ever having to create those humans from the simulation who rejected him. From there, the virtual humans who met God's approval could have been brought into reality and sent directly to heaven with no one needing to be punished in hell.

One objection to this scenario might be that God is a perfect creator and has no need to test anything he designs in advance of creating those things. However, if God is a perfect creator, then it logically follows that anything he creates will be in perfect alignment with his perfect design. Meanwhile, humans are supposed to have been perfectly created by God yet do not exist in perfect alignment with God's perfect design. Apologists will argue that this was not a flaw in God's perfect design but a consequence of early human's misuse of their free-will to bring sin into the world. If this is true, then God could have tested for that outcome by first running a simulation of humanity prior to actually creating humanity. When the simulated humans used their simulated free-will to bring sin into their simulated world, God could have either restarted the simulation with an updated design or created in reality only those virtual humans who freely chose to obey him in the simulation.

There appears to be no logical justification for permitting humans to exist in a reality where they experience actual suffering and risk experiencing an eternity of additional suffering if they fail to be convinced by extraordinary and unverifiable Biblical claims when God had the option to run an elaborate simulation first. An all-loving and perfect creator God would be expected to utilize every advantage available to prevent every single one of his human creations from experience unnecessary suffering in a way that didn't compromise their free-will to obey or disobey to him. A simulation would have provided God with that capability, but he chose to create us anyway. As such, our actual imperfect existence demonstrates that the Christian version of an omnibenevolent God cannot exist.

The only other possibility is that the Christian God created humanity in this actual reality with the intended purpose of having all of them involuntarily experience suffering and for most of them to experience eternal suffering after they die since only a minority will be convinced by the Jesus story. Obviously, because God could have previously observed or predicted the negative outcomes of our free-will choices in the form a simulation prior to creating us in reality, any suffering we experience as actual human beings in this life or during our afterlife in hell must be desirable to God. Otherwise, if he truly cared about humanity, he would have only created those people whose simulations succeeded in freely obeying his commands. Since God is a perfect creator with maximally advanced simulation technology at his disposal to know that we would use our free-will to bring sin and suffering into the world if he created us, then our actual existence demonstrates that God must have intended for us to use our actual free-will to bring actual sin and suffering into our actual existence as a component of his perfect creation.

[bluegreenearth]

William: Thanks for that. It is helpful.
Below I have slightly changed the wording of your original post #39 as part of the process I am trying in order to understand your argument...if that is acceptable to you, then would you now add the mains points as you see them, as to what you mean by "The Classical Christian God".

bluegreenearth: If the Classical Christian God exists, he had the capacity to run a maximally advanced simulation of humanity where he could have observed the free will choices they would make before choosing to create humanity in the reality we currently perceive.

bluegreenearth: The Classical Christian God had the capacity to run as many simulations as would have been necessary until he arrived at the simulation which produced humans who used their freewill to obey The Classical Christian God rather than bring sin into the world.

bluegreenearth: The Classical Christian God could choose to transform this successful simulated reality into an actual reality like the one we currently perceive but where no humans would have used their free will to disobey The Classical Christian God .

bluegreenearth: Our existence in the reality we perceive demonstrates that The Classical Christian God did not choose to create the successful simulated reality when he had the option to do otherwise.

bluegreenearth: Therefore, The Classical Christian God cannot exist.

I suppose it would have been more appropriate if I identified the deity as "the God of classical Christian theism" rather than as the classical Christian God. My apologies. The God of classical Christian theism is a deity which is believed to exist separately from his creation.

[William]

bluegreenearth: The God of classical Christian theism is a deity which is believed to exist separately from his creation.

William: Okay. Well can we take it from that observation that any Creator of a Simulation cannot be separate from Its creation?

[bluegreenearth]

bluegreenearth: The God of classical Christian theism is a deity which is believed to exist separately from his creation.

William: Okay. Well can we take it from that observation that any Creator of a Simulation cannot be separate from Its creation?

I'm not understanding your question. Please elaborate.

[William]

bluegreenearth: The God of classical Christian theism is a deity which is believed to exist separately from his creation.

William: Okay. Well can we take it from that observation that any Creator of a Simulation cannot be separate from Its creation?

bluegreenearth: I'm not understanding your question. Please elaborate.

William: I am trying to understand your argument.
You appear to be saying that according to classical Christian beliefs, The Creator is separate from the Creation...therefore... Our existence in this Universe cannot be a simulation.

[bluegreenearth]

bluegreenearth: The God of classical Christian theism is a deity which is believed to exist separately from his creation.

William: Okay. Well can we take it from that observation that any Creator of a Simulation cannot be separate from Its creation?

bluegreenearth: I'm not understanding your question. Please elaborate.

William: I am trying to understand your argument.
You appear to be saying that according to classical Christian beliefs, The Creator is separate from the Creation...therefore... Our existence in this Universe cannot be a simulation.

No. According to classical Christian theology, we actually exist in reality but separate from God. There is nothing about us existing in a simulation within the classical Christian worldview. My argument is that, if you believe in classical Christian theology, your concept of God is self-defeating on account that God had the capability to run a simulation of humanity and only create in actual reality those humans from the simulation that used their freewill to obey him without having to create the disobedient humans from the simulation. The disobedient humans from the simulation could simply be deleted without the need for them to be recreated in actual realty only to have them suffer for an eternity in hell after death.

[William]

bluegreenearth: According to classical Christian theology, we actually exist in reality but separate from God. There is nothing about us existing in a simulation within the classical Christian worldview.

William: I recently had a fellow Christian argue for that.
This came about through a discussion we were having where I laid out the premises;

• ✶We exist in a Reality Simulation
  ✶There is no such thing as true Randomness
  ✶There is a Creator of said Reality Simulation
  ✶There is far more to the Human Mind than What Meets The Eye of our immediate understanding of "Self"
  ✶There is a way in which an individual can commune with said Creator which can be Scientifically measured.
  ✶The combined results of this system of communication coupled with the fact that words can be arranged mathematically add substance to there being something worth paying attention to, scientifically speaking.
  
  The existence of Math is a realistic reason to think Simulation is involved in creations which can be experienced as realities. The association of words with numbers give results which point to that being the case - evidence which supports the idea...

The reply from the Fellow Christian was;

• Fellow Christian: I don't see why you think the various ways we've listed in which a Creator may try to communicate with Her creatures points to the physical universe being created as a reality simulation. It points to that possibility no more than it points to a number of other possibilities, such as the Christian worldview claims or other creationist worldviews.

William: It may be that the classical Christian theology makes no mention of Simulation Theory, but why would it, since the idea of existing within a simulation could not really be understood by those who had no example of what a simulation is, back in its formative years?

bluegreenearth: My argument is that, if you believe in classical Christian theology, your concept of God is self-defeating on account that God had the capability to run a simulation of humanity and only create in actual reality those humans from the simulation that used their freewill to obey him without having to create the disobedient humans from the simulation.

William: Yes I understood that was your argument. I am trying to ascertain why you think that we are not existing within a Reality Simulation, as well as why you think 'The Classical Christian Theology' agrees with this.

As an example, if we were to take the idea that a creator created us in his own image, and coupled that with what we now know about Simulations, it could be argued that The Image of GOD might be another way of saying that we were placed within a Reality Simulation.

What makes your belief that we are in 'An Actual Reality' any different from that of Classical Christians. What evidence can either offer which shows that this current experience is "An Actual Reality"?

bluegreenearth: The disobedient humans from the simulation could simply be deleted without the need for them to be recreated in actual realty only to have them suffer for an eternity in hell after death.

William: Unless there was no actual way that such simulation could produce reliable predictions without consciousness being injected into them to experience them as 'real' - or at least as real as one can experience Reality Simulations.
And where but from the Simulation Creator Itself, could this consciousness be sourced?

Add to that, the Creator is Eternal and Creative, perhaps the individuate consciousnesses experiencing Simulated Realities can only ever exist, and that experiencing a Reality Simulation such as this Physical Universe, has its results on the individuals choices, which are extended into the next phase of simulation where they create for themselves their own realities based upon how they reacted overall to the previous simulation.

If heavens and hells can be created in this way, and are able to be experienced as real by the ones creating them, even at least theoretically 'forever' - why should these not still be regarded as Reality Simulations?

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to post 46 by William]

I never claimed it was my personal conviction that we don't exist in a simulation. Furthermore, you seem to agree that most people who hold to a classical Christian theology believe they don't exist in a simulation but in a reality separate from God. Given what you know about classical Christian theology and the way most Christians conceive of God, I am asking if you agree that my argument makes a valid point with respect to their worldview and not the version of classical Christian theology you've managed to rework in such a way to better conform with your personal worldview.

[William]

bluegreenearth: I never claimed it was my personal conviction that we don't exist in a simulation.

William: While that might be true, it is not something we need to focus on, remembering that we are in General Chat rather than a Debate setting.

bluegreenearth: you seem to agree that most people who hold to a classical Christian theology believe they don't exist in a simulation but in a reality separate from God.

William: Yes. But I disagree that this is necessarily the case.

bluegreenearth: Given what you know about classical Christian theology and the way most Christians conceive of God, I am asking if you agree that my argument makes a valid point with respect to their worldview and not the version of classical Christian theology you've managed to rework in such a way to better conform with your personal worldview.

William: Yes. But since the OP is not an argument of debate, then my world view can be discussed in relation to said OP.
Which is why I am questioning your argument.
Do you want to discuss the possibility that Classic Christian Theology does not prove that we are not existing in a Reality Simulation, or did you just want to inform us that the Classic Christian idea of a Creator does not leave any room for that possibility?

[bluegreenearth]

bluegreenearth: I never claimed it was my personal conviction that we don't exist in a simulation.

William: While that might be true, it is not something we need to focus on, remembering that we are in General Chat rather than a Debate setting.

bluegreenearth: you seem to agree that most people who hold to a classical Christian theology believe they don't exist in a simulation but in a reality separate from God.

William: Yes. But I disagree that this is necessarily the case.

bluegreenearth: Given what you know about classical Christian theology and the way most Christians conceive of God, I am asking if you agree that my argument makes a valid point with respect to their worldview and not the version of classical Christian theology you've managed to rework in such a way to better conform with your personal worldview.

William: Yes. But since the OP is not an argument of debate, then my world view can be discussed in relation to said OP.
Which is why I am questioning your argument.
Do you want to discuss the possibility that Classic Christian Theology does not prove that we are not existing in a Reality Simulation, or did you just want to inform us that the Classic Christian idea of a Creator does not leave any room for that possibility?

When the argument was originally posted, it was in the Christianity & Apologetics section. One of the moderators moved it to the General Chat section. My argument was just targeting the classic Christian idea of a creator. I don't think I am in a position to argue whether classical Christian theology proves we do not exist an a simulation or not. It is just my understanding that most Christians claim to hold that view.

[William]

bluegreenearth: I don't think I am in a position to argue whether classical Christian theology proves we do not exist an a simulation or not. It is just my understanding that most Christians claim to hold that view.

William: Perhaps that is the reason the Moderators shifted it to the General Chat.

Considering that classical non-theists share a similar opinion as classical Christians who claim to hold that view, it becomes an interesting concept to discuss, but is of no debatable value.

The evidence suggests we exist in a Realty Simulation.