Simulation Argument for a Non-Existent Christian God

[bluegreenearth]

Thanks to innovations in computer technology, we have the capacity to simulate a variety of real-world objects and events in virtual environments. One of the main reasons for utilizing this capability is to test the functionality and safety of a variety of things we've designed prior to constructing those things in reality where the risks are more costly in term of materials, labor, and human life in some circumstances. For example, engineers can test a bridge design in a computer simulation before it is built to determine if will remain sturdy or collapse under a variety of expected conditions.

We have also developed advanced computer software that can only be described as artificial intelligence which functions at a non-sentient level. Artificial intelligence is currently being used to make reliably accurate predictions in business, global politics, medicine, astronomy, and a host of other applications. It is possible that artificial intelligence could one day be programmed with an ability to make free-will decisions.

Given that we have been able to achieve these technological advantages using our own intellect and ingenuity, it is only reasonable to assume the Christian God must certainly have a far greater capability to create maximally advanced simulations that include artificial intelligence or even artificial life. As such, we must ask why God did not utilize his maximally advanced technology to test his design of humanity in the form of a simulation where no one would actually exist or actually experience suffering prior to creating humanity in the reality where we perceive ourselves to exist. By doing so, God could have chosen to bring into reality only those virtual people from the simulation that used their simulated freewill to satisfy God's plan without ever having to create those humans from the simulation who rejected him. From there, the virtual humans who met God's approval could have been brought into reality and sent directly to heaven with no one needing to be punished in hell.

One objection to this scenario might be that God is a perfect creator and has no need to test anything he designs in advance of creating those things. However, if God is a perfect creator, then it logically follows that anything he creates will be in perfect alignment with his perfect design. Meanwhile, humans are supposed to have been perfectly created by God yet do not exist in perfect alignment with God's perfect design. Apologists will argue that this was not a flaw in God's perfect design but a consequence of early human's misuse of their free-will to bring sin into the world. If this is true, then God could have tested for that outcome by first running a simulation of humanity prior to actually creating humanity. When the simulated humans used their simulated free-will to bring sin into their simulated world, God could have either restarted the simulation with an updated design or created in reality only those virtual humans who freely chose to obey him in the simulation.

There appears to be no logical justification for permitting humans to exist in a reality where they experience actual suffering and risk experiencing an eternity of additional suffering if they fail to be convinced by extraordinary and unverifiable Biblical claims when God had the option to run an elaborate simulation first. An all-loving and perfect creator God would be expected to utilize every advantage available to prevent every single one of his human creations from experience unnecessary suffering in a way that didn't compromise their free-will to obey or disobey to him. A simulation would have provided God with that capability, but he chose to create us anyway. As such, our actual imperfect existence demonstrates that the Christian version of an omnibenevolent God cannot exist.

The only other possibility is that the Christian God created humanity in this actual reality with the intended purpose of having all of them involuntarily experience suffering and for most of them to experience eternal suffering after they die since only a minority will be convinced by the Jesus story. Obviously, because God could have previously observed or predicted the negative outcomes of our free-will choices in the form a simulation prior to creating us in reality, any suffering we experience as actual human beings in this life or during our afterlife in hell must be desirable to God. Otherwise, if he truly cared about humanity, he would have only created those people whose simulations succeeded in freely obeying his commands. Since God is a perfect creator with maximally advanced simulation technology at his disposal to know that we would use our free-will to bring sin and suffering into the world if he created us, then our actual existence demonstrates that God must have intended for us to use our actual free-will to bring actual sin and suffering into our actual existence as a component of his perfect creation.

[1213]

....As such, we must ask why God did not utilize his maximally advanced technology to test his design of humanity in the form of a simulation where no one would actually exist or actually experience suffering prior to creating humanity in the reality ....

In Biblical point of view this �life� is the �simulation� or virtual reality where we can experience all kind of things while the souls is in safe and can’t be destroyed. In Biblical point of view body is only like user interface to experience this world.

[otseng]

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Moved to General Chat. Please review the Rules and Tips on starting a debate topic.

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by bluegreenearth]

William: My own interest in the subject places me thus far in the following position.

If we are existing within a complex Machine Driven Simulation and that Machine is Sentient, then we should be able to find ways in which to communicate with it.

The suffering is simply seen to be invested into the overall algorithms of our particular Simulated Reality and we are literally the Sentient Machine experiencing said simulation.

I see no problem in the idea that we can also influence The Machine in creating our own realities through what we regard as "Imagination" through algorithms which allow for the creation process to occur.

As such, The "Christian GOD" and any other type GOD can be created - and sustained - in this way.

He/She/They may not be 'real' in terms of this particular simulation, but that which is imagined within this reality can have the effect of creating another reality simulation somewhere else, through the Machinery.

This makes all Reality Simulations - including our own, part of - rather than separate from - all other Simulated Realities with The Machine.

This effectively makes The Machine the overall device in which The Sentience utilizing The Machinery is GOD.

[Divine Insight]

Given that we have been able to achieve these technological advantages using our own intellect and ingenuity, it is only reasonable to assume the Christian God must certainly have a far greater capability to create maximally advanced simulations that include artificial intelligence or even artificial life. As such, we must ask why God did not utilize his maximally advanced technology to test his design of humanity in the form of a simulation where no one would actually exist or actually experience suffering prior to creating humanity in the reality where we perceive ourselves to exist.

It appears that this part of your opening post went completely unread, or not understood, by those who have responded thus far.

You have an absolutely valid point. A point which brings all theologies to their knees in dire need of an answer. An answer they most certainly cannot justify without simultaneously proclaiming that their God is simply incapable of doing what you have suggested.

But as soon as a theology uses ineptitude as an excuse for why their God cannot do things, their theology clearly falls apart.

This is a good point to debate. Perhaps try to focus in on the crux of the paragraph I quoted above, and repost this in C&A with the debate question, "Why did an omnipotent God not do this first?"

[William]

[Replying to post 5]

bluegreenearth: Given that we have been able to achieve these technological advantages using our own intellect and ingenuity, it is only reasonable to assume the Christian God must certainly have a far greater capability to create maximally advanced simulations that include artificial intelligence or even artificial life. As such, we must ask why God did not utilize his maximally advanced technology to test his design of humanity in the form of a simulation where no one would actually exist or actually experience suffering prior to creating humanity in the reality where we perceive ourselves to exist.

Divine Insight: Why did an omnipotent God not do this first?



William: The answer is obvious.
An all knowing GOD has no need of simulations to test theories which it also has no need of.
An All Powerful GOD has no problem involving itself within Reality Simulations which allow for experiencing suffering as it would know the outcome, even that particles of Itself within the experience might think of it as "inept" "cruel" etc.
Eventually, those particle too will 'get it' and forget the trauma they experienced for but the briefest of times as they move into different experiences where suffering is absent.

[bluegreenearth]

....As such, we must ask why God did not utilize his maximally advanced technology to test his design of humanity in the form of a simulation where no one would actually exist or actually experience suffering prior to creating humanity in the reality ....

In Biblical point of view this �life� is the �simulation� or virtual reality where we can experience all kind of things while the souls is in safe and can’t be destroyed. In Biblical point of view body is only like user interface to experience this world.

If this "life" is the simulation, then God completely missed the point because the reason for testing a design in a simulation is to mitigate actual risks to the actual well-being of anyone or anything. This "life" as a simulation fails in that regard where a more appropriately designed simulation of humanity would have better served in that capacity.

[bluegreenearth]

Given that we have been able to achieve these technological advantages using our own intellect and ingenuity, it is only reasonable to assume the Christian God must certainly have a far greater capability to create maximally advanced simulations that include artificial intelligence or even artificial life. As such, we must ask why God did not utilize his maximally advanced technology to test his design of humanity in the form of a simulation where no one would actually exist or actually experience suffering prior to creating humanity in the reality where we perceive ourselves to exist.

It appears that this part of your opening post went completely unread, or not understood, by those who have responded thus far.

You have an absolutely valid point. A point which brings all theologies to their knees in dire need of an answer. An answer they most certainly cannot justify without simultaneously proclaiming that their God is simply incapable of doing what you have suggested.

But as soon as a theology uses ineptitude as an excuse for why their God cannot do things, their theology clearly falls apart.

This is a good point to debate. Perhaps try to focus in on the crux of the paragraph I quoted above, and repost this in C&A with the debate question, "Why did an omnipotent God not do this first?"

I thought this was posted to the C&A forum. The moderators must have moved it to the General chat forum for some unknown reason.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to post 5]

bluegreenearth: Given that we have been able to achieve these technological advantages using our own intellect and ingenuity, it is only reasonable to assume the Christian God must certainly have a far greater capability to create maximally advanced simulations that include artificial intelligence or even artificial life. As such, we must ask why God did not utilize his maximally advanced technology to test his design of humanity in the form of a simulation where no one would actually exist or actually experience suffering prior to creating humanity in the reality where we perceive ourselves to exist.

Divine Insight: Why did an omnipotent God not do this first?



William: The answer is obvious.
An all knowing GOD has no need of simulations to test theories which it also has no need of.
An All Powerful GOD has no problem involving itself within Reality Simulations which allow for experiencing suffering as it would know the outcome, even that particles of Itself within the experience might think of it as "inept" "cruel" etc.
Eventually, those particle too will 'get it' and forget the trauma they experienced for but the briefest of times as they move into different experiences where suffering is absent.

Your scenario does not account for the fate of the simulated humans who fail to become convinced that God exists before transitioning to the next simulation where they experience an eternity of additional suffering. What is God's purpose for running those failed simulations for an eternity?

[William]

[Replying to post 9 by ]

bluegreenearth: Your scenario does not account for the fate of the simulated humans who fail to become convinced that God exists before transitioning to the next simulation where they experience an eternity of additional suffering.

William: My scenario does account for additional suffering in relation to individuals who demand Justice, but not for the injustice of an eternity of it.
I take the opportunity to remind the reader that not All Christians believe that people are going to suffer for an eternity

bluegreenearth: What is God's purpose for running those failed simulations for an eternity?

William: There is no purpose to that. If one does an in-depth study on stories relating to NDEs and OOBEs one will discover that while the next phase is not always pretty in places, those who are suffering do so by their own beliefs and there are Soul Retrievers who's task it is to bring those ones from out of their self created horrors - a complex undertaking indeed.

As I wrote;

• I see no problem in the idea that we can also influence The Machine in creating our own realities through what we regard as "Imagination" through algorithms which allow for the creation process to occur.
  
  As such, The "Christian GOD" and any other type GOD can be created - and sustained - in this way.
  
  He/She/They may not be 'real' in terms of this particular simulation, but that which is imagined within this reality can have the effect of creating another reality simulation somewhere else, through the Machinery.

This is to say, that it is possible that for every individual, there is a heaven or hell or other type place which they create with all the props they want to include for their experience.
In some cases this would amount to some Christians creating a scenario whereby they get to experience their own idea of Justice, complete with those who they think deserve to exist in everlasting suffering, and they will also have an image of their GOD enthroned in some way making sure that Justice is served.

Again, the role of the Soul Retrievers is to help convince that individual to dismantle their created illusion and replace it with a better reality simulation experience...

My argument against your own was to simply point out that it is possible to have simulations which make those different ideas of the Christian GOD, existent...for the believer at least.

Any unbeliever inadvertently creating suffering for their self, would have to do so because they believe somehow that they deserve it. Whether they actually do so or not, is besides the point.

So these simulations are allowed to continue to happen for those who require justice, for their own or for others because they themselves demand it. Not because a GOD outside of their selves demands it.