US Senate's Decision To Impeach

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US Senate's Decision To Impeach

Post #1

Post by WebersHome »

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Former US President Donald Trump's impeachment isn't strictly Constitutional-- i.e. by the book --which is precisely why Chief Justice Roberts is taking no part in it.

The vote to construe Mr. Trump's impeachment as Constitutional wasn't a legislative vote, rather, it was an opinion vote; i.e. a poll. In other words, at this point in time, the US Senate is a kangaroo court, i.e. a lynch mob, just as it was in 1876 when it tried Secretary of War William Belknap after he resigned.

Also: the decision to impeach Mr. Trump, if successful, opens the door for impeaching all past, out of office, US Presidents; including Mr. Richard Nixon, who himself resigned rather than be forced out of office. In point of fact, the impeachment process was originally designed to remove a US President from office. Mr. Trump is already out; same as Mr. Nixon was and same as Mr. Belknap.

Normally guilty verdicts rendered by the US Senate when impeaching a US President cannot be appealed. But this time, the accused is a private citizen; which means Mr. Trump may have solid legal grounds for an appeal should this fiasco go south on him.

In my opinion; the United States government is behaving like uneducated hillbillies in this matter, and I can't help but wonder what the rest of the world is thinking about our stability right about now.
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Re: US Senate's Decision To Impeach

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Post by Miles »

WebersHome wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:53 am .
Former US President Donald Trump's impeachment isn't strictly Constitutional-- i.e. by the book --which is precisely why Chief Justice Roberts is taking no part in it.

The vote to construe Mr. Trump's impeachment as Constitutional wasn't a legislative vote, rather, it was an opinion vote; i.e. a poll. In other words, at this point in time, the US Senate is a kangaroo court, i.e. a lynch mob, just as it was in 1876 when it tried Secretary of War William Belknap after he resigned.

Also: the decision to impeach Mr. Trump, if successful, opens the door for impeaching all past, out of office, US Presidents; including Mr. Richard Nixon, who himself resigned rather than be forced out of office. In point of fact, the impeachment process was originally designed to remove a US President from office. Mr. Trump is already out; same as Mr. Nixon was and same as Mr. Belknap.

Normally guilty verdicts rendered by the US Senate when impeaching a US President cannot be appealed. But this time, the accused is a private citizen; which means Mr. Trump may have solid legal grounds for an appeal should this fiasco go south on him.

In my opinion; the United States government is behaving like uneducated hillbillies in this matter, and I can't help but wonder what the rest of the world is thinking about our stability right about now.
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Seems the Senate disagrees by a vote of 56-44, which is all that counts.Image Image Image




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Last edited by Miles on Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: US Senate's Decision To Impeach

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WebersHome wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:53 am .
Former US President Donald Trump's impeachment isn't strictly Constitutional-- i.e. by the book --which is precisely why Chief Justice Roberts is taking no part in it.

The vote to construe Mr. Trump's impeachment as Constitutional wasn't a legislative vote, rather, it was an opinion vote; i.e. a poll. In other words, at this point in time, the US Senate is a kangaroo court, i.e. a lynch mob, just as it was in 1876 when it tried Secretary of War William Belknap after he resigned.

Also: the decision to impeach Mr. Trump, if successful, opens the door for impeaching all past, out of office, US Presidents; including Mr. Richard Nixon, who himself resigned rather than be forced out of office. In point of fact, the impeachment process was originally designed to remove a US President from office. Mr. Trump is already out; same as Mr. Nixon was and same as Mr. Belknap.

Normally guilty verdicts rendered by the US Senate when impeaching a US President cannot be appealed. But this time, the accused is a private citizen; which means Mr. Trump may have solid legal grounds for an appeal should this fiasco go south on him.

In my opinion; the United States government is behaving like uneducated hillbillies in this matter, and I can't help but wonder what the rest of the world is thinking about our stability right about now.
_
I'm not only concerned about the reasons for impeachment but also the lack of good standards to determine if someone is guilty or innocent. It's common for some to bring up that impeachment isn't a criminal trial, but is that a good thing? What standard other than majority vote, will the Senate go by? Seems like each Senator is left to go by their own personal standard of what they think evidence is.
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Re: US Senate's Decision To Impeach

Post #4

Post by Miles »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:21 pm
WebersHome wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:53 am .
Former US President Donald Trump's impeachment isn't strictly Constitutional-- i.e. by the book --which is precisely why Chief Justice Roberts is taking no part in it.

The vote to construe Mr. Trump's impeachment as Constitutional wasn't a legislative vote, rather, it was an opinion vote; i.e. a poll. In other words, at this point in time, the US Senate is a kangaroo court, i.e. a lynch mob, just as it was in 1876 when it tried Secretary of War William Belknap after he resigned.

Also: the decision to impeach Mr. Trump, if successful, opens the door for impeaching all past, out of office, US Presidents; including Mr. Richard Nixon, who himself resigned rather than be forced out of office. In point of fact, the impeachment process was originally designed to remove a US President from office. Mr. Trump is already out; same as Mr. Nixon was and same as Mr. Belknap.

Normally guilty verdicts rendered by the US Senate when impeaching a US President cannot be appealed. But this time, the accused is a private citizen; which means Mr. Trump may have solid legal grounds for an appeal should this fiasco go south on him.

In my opinion; the United States government is behaving like uneducated hillbillies in this matter, and I can't help but wonder what the rest of the world is thinking about our stability right about now.
_
I'm not only concerned about the reasons for impeachment but also the lack of good standards to determine if someone is guilty or innocent. It's common for some to bring up that impeachment isn't a criminal trial, but is that a good thing?
"The Constitution provides that the grounds of impeachment are for "treason, bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors." While the types of conduct constituting treason and bribery are relatively well-understood terms, the meaning of "high Crimes and Misdemeanors" is not defined in the Constitution or in statute. The basic framework for impeachment was inherited from English practice by the colonies in their adoption of state constitutions.3 Both experiences informed the adoption of impeachment provisions in the federal Constitution.

The common method for interpreting the Constitution's impeachment provisions stands in some contrast to that of other constitutional provisions. Whereas judicial precedent drives the prevailing understanding of many provisions of the Constitution, impeachment is essentially a political process that is largely unreviewable by the judicial branch. As such, the historical practice of impeachment proceedings, rather than judicial decisions, informs our understanding of the Constitution's meaning in this area. In this vein, the meaning of "high crimes and misdemeanors" is informed not by judicial decisions, but by the history of congressional impeachments.5

Impeachment has been used to remove government officers who abuse the power of the office; conduct themselves in a manner incompatible with the purpose and function of their office; or misuse the office for improper or personal gain."
source
What standard other than majority vote, will the Senate go by?
A necessary 2/3 vote, (67 in the case of the Senate) which is mandated.

Seems like each Senator is left to go by their own personal standard of what they think evidence is.
As is any juror. One can only hope they find evidence to be reasonable and compelling,


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Re: US Senate's Decision To Impeach

Post #5

Post by William »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:21 pm
WebersHome wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:53 am .
Former US President Donald Trump's impeachment isn't strictly Constitutional-- i.e. by the book --which is precisely why Chief Justice Roberts is taking no part in it.

The vote to construe Mr. Trump's impeachment as Constitutional wasn't a legislative vote, rather, it was an opinion vote; i.e. a poll. In other words, at this point in time, the US Senate is a kangaroo court, i.e. a lynch mob, just as it was in 1876 when it tried Secretary of War William Belknap after he resigned.

Also: the decision to impeach Mr. Trump, if successful, opens the door for impeaching all past, out of office, US Presidents; including Mr. Richard Nixon, who himself resigned rather than be forced out of office. In point of fact, the impeachment process was originally designed to remove a US President from office. Mr. Trump is already out; same as Mr. Nixon was and same as Mr. Belknap.

Normally guilty verdicts rendered by the US Senate when impeaching a US President cannot be appealed. But this time, the accused is a private citizen; which means Mr. Trump may have solid legal grounds for an appeal should this fiasco go south on him.

In my opinion; the United States government is behaving like uneducated hillbillies in this matter, and I can't help but wonder what the rest of the world is thinking about our stability right about now.
_
I'm not only concerned about the reasons for impeachment but also the lack of good standards to determine if someone is guilty or innocent. It's common for some to bring up that impeachment isn't a criminal trial, but is that a good thing? What standard other than majority vote, will the Senate go by? Seems like each Senator is left to go by their own personal standard of what they think evidence is.
Sounds like something the Romans used to practice...wait...what!?

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Re: US Senate's Decision To Impeach

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Post by AgnosticBoy »

William wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:50 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:21 pm I'm not only concerned about the reasons for impeachment but also the lack of good standards to determine if someone is guilty or innocent. It's common for some to bring up that impeachment isn't a criminal trial, but is that a good thing? What standard other than majority vote, will the Senate go by? Seems like each Senator is left to go by their own personal standard of what they think evidence is.
Sounds like something the Romans used to practice...wait...what!?
That alone doesn't make it right.

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Re: US Senate's Decision To Impeach

Post #7

Post by William »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:15 pm
William wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:50 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:21 pm I'm not only concerned about the reasons for impeachment but also the lack of good standards to determine if someone is guilty or innocent. It's common for some to bring up that impeachment isn't a criminal trial, but is that a good thing? What standard other than majority vote, will the Senate go by? Seems like each Senator is left to go by their own personal standard of what they think evidence is.
Sounds like something the Romans used to practice...wait...what!?
That alone doesn't make it right.
Why would we think it should could or would?

What it does imply though is that democracy is a sham.

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Re: US Senate's Decision To Impeach

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Miles wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:10 pmSeems the Senate disagrees by a vote of 56-44, which is all that counts
The "Senate" didn't disagree with me; only a little over half did.

For example: whenever someone cites a US Supreme Court decision, I make a point of asking them the vote. It's not unusual for the vote to be 5-4 which to me doesn't speak for the Court at all, it speaks for barely half the Court; and the majority isn't necessarily right: they're all political appointees; none can be trusted to be impartial.
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Re: US Senate's Decision To Impeach

Post #9

Post by WebersHome »

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It is common practice-- within Local, State, and Federal government, and among private citizens --to construe that if something isn't explicitly forbidden by law, then it's okay to do it.

For example: seeing as how the US Constitution doesn't exempt former US presidents from impeachment; then to do so doesn't violate the US Constitution, i.e. in the minds of the prosecutors, the impeachment isn't unconstitutional.

That kind of convoluted sophistry is very difficult for us common folk to accept without question.
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Re: US Senate's Decision To Impeach

Post #10

Post by Difflugia »

WebersHome wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:38 pmIt is common practice-- within Local, State, and Federal government, and among private citizens --to construe that if something isn't explicitly forbidden by law, then it's okay to do it.
That's literally the tenth amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
WebersHome wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:38 pmFor example: seeing as how the US Constitution doesn't exempt former US presidents from impeachment; then to do so doesn't violate the US Constitution, i.e. in the minds of the prosecutors, the impeachment isn't unconstitutional.
Isn't the (once again literal) definition of "unconstitutional" that something is prohibited by the Constitution?
WebersHome wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:38 pmThat kind of convoluted sophistry is very difficult for us common folk to accept without question.
Now, that makes sense. If that's the only kind of sophistry that bothers you, then "I should have won the election even though more people voted for my opponent" shouldn't cause any heartburn.
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