Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Chat viewable by general public

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9161
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 186 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

Hi all,

This is a thread to discuss the Christianity & Apologetics Forum

In the rules on this forum: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9741

Point 2 seems to clash with the general purpose of this forum.
2. Avoid using the Bible as the sole source to prove that Christianity is true. However, using the Bible as the only source to argue what is authentic Christianity is legitimate.
clashes with
This sub-forum is intended as a meeting ground for any and all theistic positions – none of which are given preferential treatment. It is a very “level playing field�. Any story, statement or claim of knowledge which is challenged is required to be substantiated with evidence to show that it is true and accurate. “The Bible (or Quran or Bhagavad Gita) says so� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth.

If you disagree with the Guidelines and/or cannot debate without attempting to use the Bible to prove a point or position true, kindly do not debate in this sub-forum. Instead, use Theology, Doctrine and Dogma OR Holy Huddle sub-forums in which the Bible IS regarded as authoritative and can be used as proof of truth.
What is the subforum for and why are posts on Christianity & Apologetics being moved out of the forum?
I've made two posts now that are intended to debate what is authentic Christianity and so assumed the Bible can be used as a source but been moderated down to the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma forum.

Even the little note for each forum is contradictory (when you view all the forums lists).
Christianity and Apologetics (Argue for and against Christianity)
Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma (Exploring the details of Christianity)

I feel I am not allowed to argue for Christianity in this forum and at the very least not understanding point 2.

Thoughts:

The core problem is that the Christianity and Apologetics forum is to my mind the main forum of the website and is for debating Christianity and Apologetics and debate is not possible. Any general visitor would assume that debating Christianity would be allowed in that forum.

* Can we possibly rename the forum to something other than Christianity and Apologetics? There is no way anyone is going to understand that they can't debate Christianity in that forum and new visitors potentially getting moderated so quickly can only detract from the website. I am not sure what a good name would be.

* I'd appreciate understanding what this point 2 means, please? As we might be aware there is a large JW population on the website and so the argument for what is authentic Christianity seems valid to me.

* I would also appeal to allowing Christian debate topics on the main forum of the website to attract more visitors to the site. Perhaps the two forums can be switched around in order?

* Perhaps merge the forums and allow the users to tag whether the Bible is to be considered authoritative or not, or state in their debate question what they think the presuppositions of the debate should be?

* Moderating Christian posts so quickly might not be good as well (minor point in context).

In the end, the different subforums serve to guide the type of questions. If the subforum is on Star Wars then don't post about Star Trek is how I see it and I feel as if I am on a Harry Potter website right now where I am not allowed to post about Harry Potter in the Harry Potter forum.

I like the idea of a forum where the Bible isn't considered authoritative, defeating opponents without even needing the Bible actually strengthens the belief in God, and maybe I need to be more gracious and see this forum as the opportunity for atheists to learn more about God through debate when they don't know the Bible, but it is still confusing to move on-point debate topics off the main forum of the website.

(That last underlined thought almost has me argue myself out of this post.)

Question: Should posts that are on the topic of Christianity & Apologetics be moved off the main forum of the website? (added via edit)
Last edited by Wootah on Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9161
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 186 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #21

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to benchwarmer in post #18]

I appreciate your posts. This thread is about taking a step back from the rules (which literally got updated this week in response to this issue) and considering the purpose of the website and the forum.

Do you think it is weird that the main forum on a Harry Potter website does not allow posts about the books written about Harry Potter?

Do you think that any non-biased person would think that Christian debate topics would be moved out of a forum called C&A?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2572 times

Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #22

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:44 pm You are one of the more honest guys on the forum. At least you acknowledge the humour of the main forum of a Christian website banning Christian posts.

I think it is funny as well, I do, but there is that weird part of me that wanted to help reach out because maybe the owner and moderators or the site aren't aware of the issue.

In my recent series of posts on hell, you demonstrated my point for me by showing how sacred C&A is to you. My heart goes out to you and for your sake alone I would ask things to not change, but for rationalities sake, I must go on.
I think it's about the nature of the argument. In C&A it could be a couple ways...

"Jesus rose from the dead to fulfill some religious deal."

Here the problem is one of both scientific / physical(ish?) validity so far as actually rising from the dead, and the theological argument of why the need to rise.

It sets in a weird kinda argument - where I'd focus on the more scientific, other'ns might fuss on the more theological. We should reserve C&A for arguments more scientific, logical, and all such as that. We then'd fuss more on if there was an actual rising from the dead. Then we toss the theological question of the deal fulfilling over to TD&D, where we can fuss on if the deal was right and just, that kinda thing.

I'm a C&A purist - I'm seldom to never gonna fret the theological, but the probable, the factual, and the truthual. Leave all that "And how proud are we all for God on this one deal here in the bible" to the good folks of TD&D, some to many of whom can present sound arguments, sound thinkings, and even theological schoolings. They're good folks, they mean well, it's just they might confuse their belief with fact here and there.

So I just try to do my fussing where I feel it needs it the most, and trust my warranted faith that the mods try to to herd up this mess of cats best they can.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

benchwarmer
Guru
Posts: 2283
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:40 am
Has thanked: 1956 times
Been thanked: 734 times

Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #23

Post by benchwarmer »

Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:54 pm Do you think it is weird that the main forum on a Harry Potter website does not allow posts about the books written about Harry Potter?
Does this Harry Potter website have an apologetics section (debate the validity of the Harry Potter universe) and a theology section (assuming the contents of the book series is true, debate the fine details of trying to live the Harry Potter way as was meant by J.K. Rowling)?
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:54 pm Do you think that any non-biased person would think that Christian debate topics would be moved out of a forum called C&A?
Yes, if the debate topic was not an apologetics one and/or only based on Bible verses.

Again, I think it's just a debate question formation issue. If you can frame the question as one that doesn't appear to rely solely on Bible verses, I think all will be good.

From your first post that you mentioned that got moved. How about change the following:
Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead
Post #1
Post by Wootah » Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:16 pm

https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?
To something more like:
Are the Biblical characters of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?
Post #1

From the Bible, we see the following:

https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”

From historical records we see the characters mentioned after their supposed death:
[Some neat reference to make your point]

So, if these characters Abraham, Isaac and Jacob seem to have been alive AFTER their initial death, does this also mean the Christian God is real?

Then debate can go back and forth on the validity of the source material(s) and the implications it may have on Christianity being true. If not approached from an angle like this, a non believer is simply going to reply "The Bible is not authoritative in this sub forum, so the quoted verse only tells us what (some) Christians believe. What real world bearing does this have on other characters named in other Bible texts which are also not authoritative? In other words, can you even establish that Abraham, Isaac or Jacob were alive in the first place? Fictional characters may only be alive or dead in the minds of readers."

User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9161
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 186 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #24

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to benchwarmer in post #23]
Does this Harry Potter website have an apologetics section (debate the validity of the Harry Potter universe) and a theology section (assuming the contents of the book series is true, debate the fine details of trying to live the Harry Potter way as was meant by J.K. Rowling)?
You're still squirming here. What is the answer?
Do you think that any non-biased person would think that Christian debate topics would be moved out of a forum called C&A?
Yes, if the debate topic was not an apologetics one and/or only based on Bible verses.
What person thinks that a Christianity & Apologetics forum would not allow Bible verses?
Again, I think it's just a debate question formation issue. If you can frame the question as one that doesn't appear to rely solely on Bible verses, I think all will be good.
It isn't. You are still making an argument based upon the current rules (which were updated only a few days ago because of this discussion.)

A man cannot discuss Christian & Apologetics in the Christianity & Apologetics forum (is the topic). Save the debating for the rest of the forums - just say it :).

Ok for the non Harry Potter fans.

Isn't it weird to go into a chocolate shop and not be able to order chocolate?

Anyway, Otseng's feelings are known. I just wanted to bring up the topic because the current situation is irrational.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

benchwarmer
Guru
Posts: 2283
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:40 am
Has thanked: 1956 times
Been thanked: 734 times

Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #25

Post by benchwarmer »

Wootah wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:43 pm [Replying to benchwarmer in post #23]
Does this Harry Potter website have an apologetics section (debate the validity of the Harry Potter universe) and a theology section (assuming the contents of the book series is true, debate the fine details of trying to live the Harry Potter way as was meant by J.K. Rowling)?
You're still squirming here. What is the answer?
Squirming? I think you are just not understanding my point.

My point is, we have two EQUAL sub forums. One is for theology, one is for apologetics. BOTH are about Christianity. The sub forums are in place to narrow the debates and provide guidelines.

Your question appears to amount to asking if we should change the sub forum names because you don't like sub dividing the debates. My answer is NO. No squirming :)
Wootah wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:43 pm
Do you think that any non-biased person would think that Christian debate topics would be moved out of a forum called C&A?
Yes, if the debate topic was not an apologetics one and/or only based on Bible verses.
What person thinks that a Christianity & Apologetics forum would not allow Bible verses?
What person thought that was what I said? I suggest rereading my previous posts.

No one is saying don't use Bible verses in C&A. I (and the current rules) are saying don't rely SOLEY on Bible verses to make your point - unless your only point is to make clear what is written in the Bible. i.e. Person A says Christianity is true because historical artifact X shows Y. This lines up with Bible verse Z which can be found here...

The C&A sub forum is a place to argue the truth of Christianity overall, not to argue about interpretations of Bible verses that are pointless by themselves. If verse A says X and verse B says Y, who cares? Is X or Y true based on some OTHER non biblical evidence?
Wootah wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:43 pm
Again, I think it's just a debate question formation issue. If you can frame the question as one that doesn't appear to rely solely on Bible verses, I think all will be good.
It isn't. You are still making an argument based upon the current rules (which were updated only a few days ago because of this discussion.)
Well, we have different opinions then and that is fine. I like the current rules. i.e. quoting the bible in some sub forums is not considered evidence of anything beyond the fact that someone wrote it down. It has no bearing on reality and proves nothing about anyone being alive or dead (as one of your OPs was about).
Wootah wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:43 pm A man cannot discuss Christian & Apologetics in the Christianity & Apologetics forum (is the topic). Save the debating for the rest of the forums - just say it :).
???

My entire point is if one wants do debate Christian apologetics and gain any traction, the Bible cannot be considered authoritative or it's just a bunch of circular arguments. Every single topic that relies only on the Bible will quickly end with "The Bible is just the words of men unless you can show otherwise, it has no bearing on Christianity's truth or not". Is that what you want?
Wootah wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:43 pm Ok for the non Harry Potter fans.

Isn't it weird to go into a chocolate shop and not be able to order chocolate?
That is a horrible analogy.

This ENTIRE site is about debating religion, in most cases Christianity. Debate it in the appropriate sub forum. It sounds like you maybe just want one big forum with no subdivision. That would be a hot mess.
Wootah wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:43 pm Anyway, Otseng's feelings are known. I just wanted to bring up the topic because the current situation is irrational.
I find the current situation (and the recent rule update) quite rational. A minor issue was discovered in the rules and that has been fixed. Great! Useful discussion. However, changing sub forum names (to what by the way?) seems pointless.

Maybe start a poll and get more data after giving some options of what you would like to see?

I have a feeling that maybe I'm just not fully understanding what you want, nor are you understanding what I'm saying. Cause that never happens right :D

User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9161
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 186 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #26

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to benchwarmer in post #25]
My point is, we have two EQUAL subforums. One is for theology, one is for apologetics. BOTH are about Christianity. The subforums are in place to narrow the debates and provide guidelines.
C&A = 542k posts (main forum)
TDD = 121k posts (more specific forum)

The main forum of the website doesn't allow debating Christianity & Apologetics and Christians are getting moderated off that site for making posts about Christianity.

Honestly, the difference should be this:

Do I want to debate Christianity and Religion? Yes go to debatingchristianity.com
Do I want to have people tell me the Bible is make-believe? Post in C&A.
Do I want to have people that take the Bible seriously? Post in TDD.
Do I want to talk to Christians? Post in Holy Huddle.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

benchwarmer
Guru
Posts: 2283
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:40 am
Has thanked: 1956 times
Been thanked: 734 times

Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #27

Post by benchwarmer »

Wootah wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:41 pm [Replying to benchwarmer in post #25]
My point is, we have two EQUAL subforums. One is for theology, one is for apologetics. BOTH are about Christianity. The subforums are in place to narrow the debates and provide guidelines.
C&A = 542k posts (main forum)
TDD = 121k posts (more specific forum)
Why do you keep calling C&A the 'main' forum? It's certainly the most popular by post count, but who cares? Do you want to debate apologetics or theology? Pick the correct sub forum.
Wootah wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:41 pm The main forum of the website doesn't allow debating Christianity & Apologetics and Christians are getting moderated off that site for making posts about Christianity.
The first part of your sentence is patently false. Lots of people are debating apologetics just fine. Posts 'about Christianity' and posts about apologetics are not necessarily the same thing as has been pointed out in previous replies.

If you don't want your posts moderated out of C&A, make an apologetics argument. Your OP about whether certain Bible characters are alive or not is strictly theological unless you can provide some extra biblical evidence that they existed in the first place. Without that, you are not making a case for Christianity (apologetics), but trying to make a purely theological case within the Christian framework of existing believers.
Wootah wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:41 pm Honestly, the difference should be this:

Do I want to debate Christianity and Religion? Yes go to debatingchristianity.com
Do I want to have people tell me the Bible is make-believe? Post in C&A.
Do I want to have people that take the Bible seriously? Post in TDD.
Do I want to talk to Christians? Post in Holy Huddle.
Well, all I can say is maybe start your own web forum then. I love the current format. Your format makes no sense to me. In ALL Christian related subforums I want to talk to Christians. In C&A I want to discuss apologetics with Christians and not be hampered by 'the Bible is true' type arguments.

As long as you use something IN ADDITION to the Bible in C&A and you are making an apologetics argument, you have every right to debate there and I would back you up if you got moderated out for some reason.

Bust Nak
Savant
Posts: 9855
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 am
Location: Planet Earth
Has thanked: 189 times
Been thanked: 266 times

Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #28

Post by Bust Nak »

Wootah wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:41 pm The main forum of the website doesn't allow debating Christianity & Apologetics and Christians are getting moderated off that site for making posts about Christianity.
Granted most threads are not started by Christians, but that's still a rather odd accusation given the existences of such threads as:

Is annihilation false doctrine?
What Exactly Is Your Problem With Christianity?
Honestly, the difference should be this:

Do I want to debate Christianity and Religion? Yes go to debatingchristianity.com
Do I want to have people tell me the Bible is make-believe? Post in C&A.
Do I want to have people that take the Bible seriously? Post in TDD.
Do I want to talk to Christians? Post in Holy Huddle.
Not exactly the spirit of the rules, but following your interpretations would stop your threads from being moved.

User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9161
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 186 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #29

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Bust Nak in post #28]

Well, I think it is better to view the whole thread than pull out a specific quote that might push the point too far.

But in response to that:

* I have been posting on Hell a lot and defending it as God protecting his children by separating them from the rest and I realised how similar it looked to see atheists protecting the C&A sub forum and the irony of that. The basic answer back to my thread here is: C&A can't change the rules mostly because then it would be hell for the atheist.

* I just stepped back from the whole issue and looked at my posts, looked at the website name, the forum name and was like, 'what that doesn't make sense to moderate that kind of post in this kind of website and subforum (which is the main forum of the website).
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2572 times

Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #30

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Wootah wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:41 pm C&A = 542k posts (main forum)
TDD = 121k posts (more specific forum)

The main forum of the website doesn't allow debating Christianity & Apologetics
If we allow folks to just say "It's in the bible, so there" what kind of debate are we to have?

I propose, and think it most logical, that C&A enjoys greater numbers of posts, and readers, specifically because the rules allow for non-Christians to present challenges and arguments without having their hands tied behind their backs with the bible as the rope.

Facts ain't never been the theists' strongest arguments. In C&A we can all present facts, and reason, and data, and all such as that from a broad array of evidence, intellectual fields, scientific fields, and so on..

That gets hamstrung when we consider the bible the greatest book ever writ on all the things. What's to debate?

"Jesus walked on the water!"

"Naw, it was actually the dihydrogen monoxide, ya big goofy!'
and Christians are getting moderated off that site for making posts about Christianity.
Such would happen if, say, an OPer tried to say the bible should be the only source considered as authoritative.

If that standard should be expected, then we're just left with the "what they really meant" arguments of TD&D.
Honestly, the difference should be this:
Do I want to debate Christianity and Religion? Yes go to debatingchristianity.com
Notice though, you've decided to come to debatingchristianity.com, not iwannnabeabletojustpointtothebibleasifitstruejustcauseitsthebiblecausethatsthebesticando.com
Do I want to have people tell me the Bible is make-believe? Post in C&A.
And we get to the crux of the problem.

I propose the greatest, most powerful tool in countering claims of "bible's make believe" is to show why it ain't. That it and make believe look a lot alike ain't the problem of those who don't believe folks just cause such folk have em a bible, an internet connection, and a keyboard.
Do I want to have people that take the Bible seriously? Post in TDD.
Lol

It's nigh on exactly the multiple and conflicting theological interpretaions available that has some folks not taking the bible, or it's proponents, seriously. That and the whole lack of confirming data in support of some rather goofy claims, such as we address in C&A.
Do I want to talk to Christians? Post in Holy Huddle.
Maybe you'd feel more comfort trying to present claims in an atmosphere restricted solely to your ideological peers.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

Post Reply