Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

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Wootah
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Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

Hi all,

This is a thread to discuss the Christianity & Apologetics Forum

In the rules on this forum: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9741

Point 2 seems to clash with the general purpose of this forum.
2. Avoid using the Bible as the sole source to prove that Christianity is true. However, using the Bible as the only source to argue what is authentic Christianity is legitimate.
clashes with
This sub-forum is intended as a meeting ground for any and all theistic positions – none of which are given preferential treatment. It is a very “level playing field�. Any story, statement or claim of knowledge which is challenged is required to be substantiated with evidence to show that it is true and accurate. “The Bible (or Quran or Bhagavad Gita) says so� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth.

If you disagree with the Guidelines and/or cannot debate without attempting to use the Bible to prove a point or position true, kindly do not debate in this sub-forum. Instead, use Theology, Doctrine and Dogma OR Holy Huddle sub-forums in which the Bible IS regarded as authoritative and can be used as proof of truth.
What is the subforum for and why are posts on Christianity & Apologetics being moved out of the forum?
I've made two posts now that are intended to debate what is authentic Christianity and so assumed the Bible can be used as a source but been moderated down to the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma forum.

Even the little note for each forum is contradictory (when you view all the forums lists).
Christianity and Apologetics (Argue for and against Christianity)
Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma (Exploring the details of Christianity)

I feel I am not allowed to argue for Christianity in this forum and at the very least not understanding point 2.

Thoughts:

The core problem is that the Christianity and Apologetics forum is to my mind the main forum of the website and is for debating Christianity and Apologetics and debate is not possible. Any general visitor would assume that debating Christianity would be allowed in that forum.

* Can we possibly rename the forum to something other than Christianity and Apologetics? There is no way anyone is going to understand that they can't debate Christianity in that forum and new visitors potentially getting moderated so quickly can only detract from the website. I am not sure what a good name would be.

* I'd appreciate understanding what this point 2 means, please? As we might be aware there is a large JW population on the website and so the argument for what is authentic Christianity seems valid to me.

* I would also appeal to allowing Christian debate topics on the main forum of the website to attract more visitors to the site. Perhaps the two forums can be switched around in order?

* Perhaps merge the forums and allow the users to tag whether the Bible is to be considered authoritative or not, or state in their debate question what they think the presuppositions of the debate should be?

* Moderating Christian posts so quickly might not be good as well (minor point in context).

In the end, the different subforums serve to guide the type of questions. If the subforum is on Star Wars then don't post about Star Trek is how I see it and I feel as if I am on a Harry Potter website right now where I am not allowed to post about Harry Potter in the Harry Potter forum.

I like the idea of a forum where the Bible isn't considered authoritative, defeating opponents without even needing the Bible actually strengthens the belief in God, and maybe I need to be more gracious and see this forum as the opportunity for atheists to learn more about God through debate when they don't know the Bible, but it is still confusing to move on-point debate topics off the main forum of the website.

(That last underlined thought almost has me argue myself out of this post.)

Question: Should posts that are on the topic of Christianity & Apologetics be moved off the main forum of the website? (added via edit)
Last edited by Wootah on Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #2

Post by benchwarmer »

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]

I'm not sure I understand the confusion.

In one forum, you are allowed (and even encouraged if necessary) to use the Bible, HOWEVER, that does not establish the truth of anything other than the Bible actually states something. i.e. if the Bible states that Jesus rose, then we have confirmed that the Bible indeed states that. We have not established if Jesus actually rose, only that it has been written down and claimed to be true.

In the other forum you are allowed to claim 'truth' based on quoting the Bible. i.e. if the Bible says Jesus rose, then Jesus rose. In this forum, more than the other, interpretations must be argued. i.e. what does 'rose' actually mean?

As far as arguing what a 'true Christian' is, that can be argued in either forum, but you will have to choose whether to focus on interpretations or mere fact that some words were written down.

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #3

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to benchwarmer in post #2]

What does point 2 mean?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #4

Post by benchwarmer »

Wootah wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:24 pm [Replying to benchwarmer in post #2]

What does point 2 mean?
2. Avoid using the Bible as the sole source to prove that Christianity is true.

==> Provide other sources when attempting to make truth claims about Christian claims being true. i.e. historical documents, archeological finds, etc. Example: Christianity claims Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Archeological artifact X supports this claim.

However, using the Bible as the only source to argue what is authentic Christianity is legitimate.

==> Using only the Bible is valid when making arguments in regards to authentic Christianity. i.e. The Bible says X in the New Testament, thus it is reasonable to conclude that this is a Christian teaching. NOTE: This does not establish truth, only valid evidence from a Christian document in regards to what Christianity is about. You will still have to deal with interpretations, contradictions, etc. The usual when dealing with Bible texts.

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #5

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to benchwarmer in post #4]

Great - that's what I thought.

Post 1: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38536 debates what is authentic Christianity because it argues that an authentic Christian believes we all live on after death and death is separation from God
Post 2: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38588 debates what is authentic Christianity because it argues that an authentic Christian believes Jesus is God

So why the moderation? Because the two rules conflict perhaps?

But once we get past this argument I think the forum should be renamed and moved below the main debating forum.

What would you rename the forum to so that Christians would not make the mistake of thinking it is for Christianity & Apologetics?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #6

Post by benchwarmer »

Wootah wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:07 pm [Replying to benchwarmer in post #4]

Great - that's what I thought.

Post 1: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38536 debates what is authentic Christianity because it argues that an authentic Christian believes we all live on after death and death is separation from God
That may have been your point, but I honestly don't see that from the OP title or question. I see nothing along the lines of "Authentic Christians believe X ... ". I just see some scripture and a question about Bible characters.
Wootah wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:07 pm Post 2: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38588 debates what is authentic Christianity because it argues that an authentic Christian believes Jesus is God
Again, I just see a bunch of scripture and no mention of "Authentic Christians believe X ...."

Neither of the OPs provide non Biblical sources and both appear to be about interpretations of theology.
Wootah wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:07 pm So why the moderation? Because the two rules conflict perhaps?
You'll have to clear that up with the moderation team via PM. I can see why it was moderated as it was, but that doesn't mean it was 'correct' and you are free to present your case to the moderators for consideration.
Wootah wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:07 pm But once we get past this argument I think the forum should be renamed and moved below the main debating forum.

What would you rename the forum to so that Christians would not make the mistake of thinking it is for Christianity & Apologetics?
I see no reason to change the name. You are free to debate Christianity in either forum.

The C&A forum probably appears to be the 'main' forum because one is not forced to accept any given text as 'truth'. i.e. multiple sources (where the Bible is just considered one source) should be provided to support your argument and at no point should you say "This is true because X says so".

For contrast I see (IMHO) the following 3 subforums as:

TD&D - If the Bible says so, it's true about Christian claims. This forum is primarily debate on theological interpretations. i.e. which Christian interpretation is the right one.

C&A - Support your case with more than just the Bible when debating Christian claims. The Bible is useful here, but not for determining truth beyond confirming what was written. This forum is primarily about Christian Apologetics. i.e. arguments for and against Christianity as a whole. Inter denominational squabbles are more suited for TD&D.

S&R - Support your case with scientific data and "show your work". Links to peer reviewed articles, full explanations of methodology, etc are taken more seriously. The Bible and other holy texts are practically useless here except to point out what is claimed in order to contrast religion as a whole with scientific knowledge.

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #7

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to benchwarmer in post #6]

Yes, I wonder if next time I am meant to write: As per section 2 paragraph 4, line 5 of C&A rules I am arguing for authentic Christianity and so this post should remain in this forum ...
You'll have to clear that up with the moderation team via PM. I can see why it was moderated as it was, but that doesn't mean it was 'correct' and you are free to present your case to the moderators for consideration.
They asked me to bring it here :).

Yes, now I am hoping you address the topic (no sarcasm intended).

Otseng? Moderators? Anyone? Joey? What sort of topic is valid as per point 2? Should posts that are on the topic of Christianity & Apologetics be moved off the main forum of the website?
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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #8

Post by otseng »

[Replying to Wootah in post #7]

I missed your other post, but just now posted a response to it.
I believe this phrase was there before TD&D was created. So, since we have a subforum specifically for debating theology, this phrase should be deleted here in the C&A guidelines.

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #9

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to otseng in post #8]

That makes sense to remove it.

What are your thoughts on topics on Christianity & Apologetics being moved off the main forum of the website please?

Should posts that are on the topic of Christianity & Apologetics be moved off the main forum of the website?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

Looking for head to head debates, especially on contradictions or the Trinity. PM me your topic.

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #10

Post by Tcg »

Wootah wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:39 pm Should posts that are on the topic of Christianity & Apologetics be moved off the main forum of the website?
Nothing was "moved off of the main forum of the website." Both were moved from one sub-forum to another and both were moved for the same reason. Both were moved because they were treating the Bible as authoritative.

The first made the claim in the title that, "God is the God of the living not the dead" and in the O.P. text used Luke 20:37-38 as evidence to support that claim.

The second made the claim in the title that, "Jesus is God" and in the O.P. text referred to, if I counted correctly, 34 verses to support that claim.

The proper sub-forum for topics that consider the Bible authoritative is the TD&D: "In this sub-forum the canon of the Bible is considered authoritative with respect to the historical consensus of the canon's content." viewtopic.php?p=254778#p254778


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