Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

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Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

Hi all,

This is a thread to discuss the Christianity & Apologetics Forum

In the rules on this forum: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9741

Point 2 seems to clash with the general purpose of this forum.
2. Avoid using the Bible as the sole source to prove that Christianity is true. However, using the Bible as the only source to argue what is authentic Christianity is legitimate.
clashes with
This sub-forum is intended as a meeting ground for any and all theistic positions – none of which are given preferential treatment. It is a very “level playing field�. Any story, statement or claim of knowledge which is challenged is required to be substantiated with evidence to show that it is true and accurate. “The Bible (or Quran or Bhagavad Gita) says so� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth.

If you disagree with the Guidelines and/or cannot debate without attempting to use the Bible to prove a point or position true, kindly do not debate in this sub-forum. Instead, use Theology, Doctrine and Dogma OR Holy Huddle sub-forums in which the Bible IS regarded as authoritative and can be used as proof of truth.
What is the subforum for and why are posts on Christianity & Apologetics being moved out of the forum?
I've made two posts now that are intended to debate what is authentic Christianity and so assumed the Bible can be used as a source but been moderated down to the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma forum.

Even the little note for each forum is contradictory (when you view all the forums lists).
Christianity and Apologetics (Argue for and against Christianity)
Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma (Exploring the details of Christianity)

I feel I am not allowed to argue for Christianity in this forum and at the very least not understanding point 2.

Thoughts:

The core problem is that the Christianity and Apologetics forum is to my mind the main forum of the website and is for debating Christianity and Apologetics and debate is not possible. Any general visitor would assume that debating Christianity would be allowed in that forum.

* Can we possibly rename the forum to something other than Christianity and Apologetics? There is no way anyone is going to understand that they can't debate Christianity in that forum and new visitors potentially getting moderated so quickly can only detract from the website. I am not sure what a good name would be.

* I'd appreciate understanding what this point 2 means, please? As we might be aware there is a large JW population on the website and so the argument for what is authentic Christianity seems valid to me.

* I would also appeal to allowing Christian debate topics on the main forum of the website to attract more visitors to the site. Perhaps the two forums can be switched around in order?

* Perhaps merge the forums and allow the users to tag whether the Bible is to be considered authoritative or not, or state in their debate question what they think the presuppositions of the debate should be?

* Moderating Christian posts so quickly might not be good as well (minor point in context).

In the end, the different subforums serve to guide the type of questions. If the subforum is on Star Wars then don't post about Star Trek is how I see it and I feel as if I am on a Harry Potter website right now where I am not allowed to post about Harry Potter in the Harry Potter forum.

I like the idea of a forum where the Bible isn't considered authoritative, defeating opponents without even needing the Bible actually strengthens the belief in God, and maybe I need to be more gracious and see this forum as the opportunity for atheists to learn more about God through debate when they don't know the Bible, but it is still confusing to move on-point debate topics off the main forum of the website.

(That last underlined thought almost has me argue myself out of this post.)

Question: Should posts that are on the topic of Christianity & Apologetics be moved off the main forum of the website? (added via edit)
Last edited by Wootah on Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #11

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Tcg in post #10]

I think we should focus on the issue. The specific instance doesn't matter. Otseng has stated that rule 2 was leftover and should not have been there. That is dealt with for me.

Should the forum be called Christianity & Apologetics if obviously Christian Apologetic posts are removed?

Step back from the rules and just answer that question for yourself in that light.

If you agree that in general 'posts on Harry Potter belong on the main forum on a Harry Potter website' and we aren't allowing that then: What should change?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #12

Post by otseng »

Wootah wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:28 pm What are your thoughts on topics on Christianity & Apologetics being moved off the main forum of the website please?
Should posts that are on the topic of Christianity & Apologetics be moved off the main forum of the website?
You mean move topics to another subforum? There's no problems with that. It's done all the time.

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #13

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to otseng in post #12]

Yes I noticed :).

Should the forum be called Christianity & Apologetics if obviously Christian Apologetic posts are removed?

Step back from the rules and just answer that question for yourself in that light.

If you agree that in general 'posts on Harry Potter belong on the main forum on a Harry Potter website' and we aren't allowing that then: What should change?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #14

Post by otseng »

[Replying to Wootah in post #13]

If it should not be called Christianity and Apologetics, then what should it be called?

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #15

Post by Wootah »

otseng wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:45 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #13]

If it should not be called Christianity and Apologetics, then what should it be called?
Do you recognise a problem that posts about Christianity are being moved off the main forum?

I think posts that are on the topic of the forum should be allowed and the rule should be relaxed. I can't see what purpose the rules, as they are, intend to serve. Was there a time that you recall when the rule was required?

The difference between the two forums should be that the Bible be considered authoritative in TDD and can be used as evidence in C&A to make a case. Let people challenge the words, offer different books or ideologies, let debate occur.

So in TDD, I would not expect someone to say, the Bible isn't the word of God and in C&A I would.

I just think it wrong that obviously on-point posts relating to Christianity & Apologetics got moved.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

Looking for head to head debates, especially on contradictions or the Trinity. PM me your topic.

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #16

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Wootah wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:39 pm [Replying to benchwarmer in post #6]

Otseng? Moderators? Anyone? Joey? What sort of topic is valid as per point 2? Should posts that are on the topic of Christianity & Apologetics be moved off the main forum of the website?
My position aligns with benchwarmer's...

C&A: Oh c'mon now, simply quoting the bible doesn't make it true.

TD&D: It says it right there in the bible, so it must be true.

S&R: The bible says so? Hahahahahahahahaha.

It's actually a well designed system that allows for differing levels of intelligence, knowledge, and other such methods of fussing.

I don't much fret the TD&D section because I already don't believe pretty much the entirety of the bible. No need fussing with that bunch.
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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #17

Post by otseng »

Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:52 am Do you recognise a problem that posts about Christianity are being moved off the main forum?
No, I do not see it as a problem that posts are moved from C&A to other subforums. Why do you consider it to be a problem?

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #18

Post by benchwarmer »

Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:52 am
otseng wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:45 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #13]

If it should not be called Christianity and Apologetics, then what should it be called?
Do you recognise a problem that posts about Christianity are being moved off the main forum?
I know this was aimed at our mighty leader (peace be upon him, may his interwebs always be up, and all that good stuff), but I personally do NOT recognize a problem here.

Some posts that at least appeared to be completely theological rather than apologetic were moved from the apologetic subforum to the theology subforum. Is the issue that you believe the theology subforum receives less traffic and thus it is not appealing to have posts moved there?

Apologetics is generally about trying to convince people that the religion is true. Squabbling about interdenominational interpretations kind of has the opposite effect. IMHO of course, but if you are trying to convince the larger audience that Christianity is the way to go, debating over specific lines of text in the holy documents is not going to gain any traction. In fact, providing scripture to make an apologetics case is pretty much an instant fail for most non Christians (especially those of us that used to be Christians). i.e. if I show you writings about unicorns from the Holy Unicorn Manuscript, does that mean you should start worshipping unicorns?

Providing scripture only becomes useful to show what Christians (should) believe, not what is actually true in the world. Debating interpretation of scripture just further muddies the water and becomes a clue that something must be off if Christians don't even agree what it is they are trying to apologize for. Thus, bringing up theological arguments in the C&A subforum is not likely to get appreciative eyeballs on the 'good stuff'.

Speaking only for myself, I will wander into the TD&D subforum only if I feel like stirring the pot and pointing out the various interpretations that exist and the issues that creates in having a cohesive religion. These kind of debates are not what I would want people to be reading if I was trying to convince them to become a Christian (i.e. apologetics). In a way, having TDD&D type debates in C&A is counterproductive to Christians trying to convince the audience they should believe. i.e. why would they believe if the Christians can't even get their story straight?

Thus, C&A should be about providing evidence, logic, extrabiblical sources, historical artifacts, etc. that can be used to bolster one's arguments either for or against what's written in the Bible. Simply providing quotes from the Bible itself is not convincing anyone that doesn't already believe (that's what the TDD&D forum is for).
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:52 am I think posts that are on the topic of the forum should be allowed
Agreed, and that appears to be what the moderators are doing (or at least doing their best to do so).
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:52 am and the rule should be relaxed. I can't see what purpose the rules, as they are, intend to serve. Was there a time that you recall when the rule was required?
I think the rule update otseng just did fixes the confusion. Maybe I'm wrong.
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:52 am The difference between the two forums should be that the Bible be considered authoritative in TDD and can be used as evidence in C&A to make a case. Let people challenge the words, offer different books or ideologies, let debate occur.
I think that is what is already happening. It's just that when OPs appear to rely solely on accepting Bible verses, they will get moved if not already in TD&D.

Perhaps the issue is simply that the OPs in question were not worded as you really meant them to be. You could always just accept the moved topic (maybe it will generate some interest in TD&D) and open another one in C&A that spells out more clearly the apologetic you are trying to make, but this time don't just use scripture. Use scripture as sparingly as possible and only as needed.

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #19

Post by Wootah »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:44 am
Wootah wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:39 pm [Replying to benchwarmer in post #6]

Otseng? Moderators? Anyone? Joey? What sort of topic is valid as per point 2? Should posts that are on the topic of Christianity & Apologetics be moved off the main forum of the website?
My position aligns with benchwarmer's...

C&A: Oh c'mon now, simply quoting the bible doesn't make it true.

TD&D: It says it right there in the bible, so it must be true.

S&R: The bible says so? Hahahahahahahahaha.

It's actually a well designed system that allows for differing levels of intelligence, knowledge, and other such methods of fussing.

I don't much fret the TD&D section because I already don't believe pretty much the entirety of the bible. No need fussing with that bunch.
You are one of the more honest guys on the forum. At least you acknowledge the humour of the main forum of a Christian website banning Christian posts.

I think it is funny as well, I do, but there is that weird part of me that wanted to help reach out because maybe the owner and moderators or the site aren't aware of the issue.

In my recent series of posts on hell, you demonstrated my point for me by showing how sacred C&A is to you. My heart goes out to you and for your sake alone I would ask things to not change, but for rationalities sake, I must go on.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Christianity & Apologetics Forum - what is it for?

Post #20

Post by Wootah »

otseng wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:18 pm
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:52 am Do you recognise a problem that posts about Christianity are being moved off the main forum?
No, I do not see it as a problem that posts are moved from C&A to other subforums. Why do you consider it to be a problem?
On top of what I wrote earlier?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

Looking for head to head debates, especially on contradictions or the Trinity. PM me your topic.

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