Divine Hiddenness

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Divine Hiddenness

Post #1

Post by Mattman »

I love discussing/debating arguments related to God's existence and Christianity, and I have a voice chat group I'm putting together to do that. Send me a PM if you're interested in participating or listening in.

Below is a brief summarized version of an argument. I'd love to hear your thoughts!
____
Thesis: The Argument from Divine Hiddenness is not sound.

Dr. Shellenberg says that any perfectly loving being would make sure that every creature *willing* to be in a life-giving reciprocal relationship with him would be *able* to be. Nonetheless, there appear to be people who, though they would be happy to be in a relationship with God, find themselves unable to believe that God exists. Dr. Shellenberg refers to this experience as reasonable nonbelief, and we can express his argument this way:

1. If there is a God, he is perfectly loving.

2. If a perfectly loving God exists, reasonable nonbelief does not occur.

3. Reasonable nonbelief occurs.

4. Therefore, no perfectly loving God exists.

5. Therefore, there is no God.

_____
From here on out, I'll refer to the argument above as "DH." I'll present what I take to be the strongest objection.

First, consider that the nontheist supports premise three by appealing to testimony. People report having experiences of reasonable nonbelief, and the nontheist maintains that this testimony has evidentiary value.

Next, notice that if God does not exist, then people cannot have authentic experiences of God. The nontheist isn't committed to any particular account for why people report such incidents, but he does seem committed to the view that such people aren't authentically experiencing God. If DH is sound, then the nontheist must reject the testimony of Christians who report firsthand experiences of God. By logical equivalence, if the nontheist accepts Christians' testimony, he must deny DH.

In short, DH shows that the testimony of firsthand experiences of God conflicts with the testimony of reasonable nonbelief. How are we to decide which testimony to accept? There are vastly more believers than nonbelievers. If, as the nontheist must insist, the testimony of this sort has evidentiary value, then the believers' testimony has more evidentiary value than the nonbelievers' in virtue of the larger number of witnesses.

To illustrate, imagine that you are a journalist in New York and you've just seen a parade go past. Suppose you interview six people: five report having seen a float pass with Santa Clause on top and the sixth reports having seen no float at all despite being in front where he'd have been able to see it. What would you conclude had happened? You can't accept all of their testimony since their testimony conflicts. It seems you would be within your rights to take the testimony of the five who saw the float and disregard the testimony of the one who didn't. At a minimum, it would be reasonable to withhold judgment and remain agnostic about whether or not the float passed.

In the same way, it seems you would be within your rights to accept the testimony of Christians and reject the testimony of nonbelievers. At a minimum, it would be reasonable to withhold judgment about whether people experience either God or reasonable nonbelief. If, however, we remain agnostic about the occurrence of reasonable nonbelief, then DH fails.

There is a way out of this problem such that the nonbeliever need not disregard anyone's testimony. Namely, he can accept premise three and reject premise 2. Even so, DH remains unsound.

_____

Sources:

Jones, Michael. “Divine Hiddenness: A Christian Response.” YouTube, uploaded by Inspiring Philosophy, 8 Feb. 2019, https://youtu.be/3YvXeLtdVBE, accessed 22 Feb. 2022.

Meister, Chad. Evil and the Hiddenness of God. God and Evil: The Case for God in a World Filled with Pain. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2013.

Speak, Daniel. The Problem of Evil. Cambridge: Polity Press, 2015.
Last edited by Mattman on Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #21

Post by William »

“Divine hiddenness”, as the phrase suggests, refers, most fundamentally, to the hiddenness of God, i.e., the alleged fact that God is hidden, absent, silent. In religious literature, there is a long history of expressions of annoyance, anxiety, and despair over divine hiddenness, so understood. For example, ancient Hebrew texts lament God’s failure to show up in experience or to show proper regard for God’s people or some particular person, and two Christian Gospels portray Jesus, in his cry of dereliction on the cross, as experiencing abandonment by God, whom he regarded as “Abba, Father”, an experience shared by many mystics, saints, and ordinary folk of all theistic traditions, described at its worst as “the dark night of the soul”. Understood in this way, divine hiddenness poses an existential problem for those who have such experiences.
[SOURCE]
Divine Hiddenness = 164
Science Projects
Behind The Scenery
Lacking belief in gods
Each to their own
Self-limitation
Freeing the soul


Hidden = occult.

Occult = cut off from view by interposing something.

Occult = 74
Jesus
Queenbee
Lucifer
Habitual
Hundred
Phasing
Simple
Between
Tarot
Fine Line
In Detail
Beauty
Nailed it
According
Energy
English
Masonic
Freescale
Gematria
Deep Space
Nuclear
Hexagon
Enchanted
About face


Unknown/Hidden/Occult = 230
The Spirit of The Earth
Well That Settles It
Shallow is Unknown
Neruda Interview Five
The Plateau of The Same Page
Present over perfect


Q: Assuming a Creator of this world exists, in what way is said Creator hidden from us?

Could the answer be that It is not hidden at all, but that it is we who are hiding from It?
[No thought about fate or of ending up late Yet I still like to think where I'm going]

Nontheists may well be the ones who have placed interposing barriers which ensure that their view is cut off - and this might be achieved through willful ignorance.

Religious theists may well be the ones who have placed interposing barriers which ensure that their view is cut off - and this might be achieved through willful ignorance.

If that be the case, then what are the interposing barriers those apparently opposite positions use in order to achieve this occulting phenomena?

Willful ignorance re the nonthesists.

False imagery re the religious theists.

False imagery amounts to willful ignorance. However, because the imagery is based in the genuine, in that The Ghost is acknowledged - dressing The Ghost through the use of imagery is an attempt to make The Ghost be seen.

The Ghost - in essence is The Mind...Consciousness, and that The Ghost breathed itself into form, is also a form of 'dressing up' and a false image for that - but to be fair re The Genesis story, the intent wasn't false.

The intent of The Ghost was to have something of Itself within a device through which it could use Its Mind to create things from the stuff of the planet.
[Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma – which is living with the results of other people's thinking.]


Yet, The Ghost within the form it created, reacted rather badly to the experience...and the reaction is best identified as Fear-Based - The Ghost scared the hell out of itself.

The Greater aspect of The Ghost/Mind that 'stayed behind' to oversee the project - reacted with apparent appall - but this too, may have been how The Ghost within the form interpreted that...and the interpretation may be false because of that - thus the false imagery - based in fear.

The whole Project hasn't been easy from the go-get, but we are not 'dealing' with something which can respond suitable to our willful ignorance/false imagery, other than how It has responded to date.

The Ghost = 102
Thousand
Whatever
Meaningful
Learn Well
A Game Of Chess
Timeless
Sharing data,
Light Body
Core value
Mystical
Vipassana
Inner self
Light Girl



From my own ongoing interactions with The Ghost, I have been informed that It is not angry, and that we would do well to transform our own anger into something more supportive of Its agenda in the scheme of things, that we might fall into line and make things much easier for ourselves.

Meantime, things are going along "just fine" re The Ghost Agenda as human beings have been suppressed sufficiently that they have become more useful to said agenda, and "leveled up" as a result, allowing for The Ghost Agenda to be magnified through scientific discover and the technology this has produced.

The Ghost Agenda = 134
The human brain
The game of Chess
The tree of life
Information
Breakthrough
Incorporate
The Digital Angel
Encounters
To Accomplish
Do a Word Search
One Nine Two
Homo Sapiens
Unprecedented
Real is better



Meantime - the confusion of war still wants to 'be heard' so there is that to deal with - yet ultimately - human warfare does not get in the way of said agenda any more than dumb animals get in the way of human warfare.

The confusion of war = 212
GOD is not an elitist.
The deserved second place
A mixture of awe and dread


The 'curse' is that many of us share the ability to imagine the possibility of living in a world of Peace...and because we just have different beliefs as to the 'reason' war exists, we seriously fight about it, cursing our dumb selves in the process.

The possibility of living in a world of Peace... = 429
In the Soil of Logic, The Seeds of Love Respond


But all is not lost, even if we cease to be...self-cursed critters blaming devilish agenda as the reason we cannot get our [pooh] together.

Rather, one way or another - out of fear - we throw that [pooh] on The Ghost not realizing that we dishonor ourselves in the process, for we are The Offspring of the breath of said Ghost.

The Father - in The Mother.

The Father - in The Mother. = 226
Soul Group Energies
Trust the process
Attitude of gratitude

1. If there is a God, he is perfectly loving.

2. If a perfectly loving God exists, reasonable nonbelief does not occur.

3. "Reasonable" nonbelief has not been established existing as a product of authentic reasoning

4. Therefore, a perfectly loving God may still exist.

5. Therefore, there may be a God.

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #22

Post by Veridican »

alexxcJRO wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:39 pm Don’t avoid please:
Q: What morality and goodness sir?
You believe God is a malevolent-sadistic being: literally creates the others to either perish or burn in hell for his pleasure.

Q: Why trust in such a being? Why worship a being more cruel and malevolent-sadistic then Hitler?
First off, don't call me "sir." I really don't like it.

Second, I'm not answering those questions for you. I don't have a problem with God, and I don't judge God. I am His son. I am one of the Elect. So, you are asking the wrong person those questions.

Veridican wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:24 am You only asserting you know.
Q: What if your mistaken?
Q: But if God is malevolent how can you trust his words? Maybe he lied?
If God is lying to me, what am I supposed to do about it?
All for Christ and only for Christ! :wave:

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #23

Post by alexxcJRO »

Veridican wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:23 pm First off, don't call me "sir." I really don't like it.

Second, I'm not answering those questions for you. I don't have a problem with God, and I don't judge God. I am His son. I am one of the Elect. So, you are asking the wrong person those questions.

Don’t avoid please:

Q: What morality and goodness sir?
You believe God is a malevolent-sadistic being: literally creates the others to either perish or burn in hell for his pleasure.

Q: Why trust in such a being? Why worship a being more cruel and malevolent-sadistic then Hitler?
Veridican wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:23 pm If God is lying to me, what am I supposed to do about it?
Q: Why trust a being that is malevolent and may be lying?

Q: Would you trust Hitler if you were a member of his staff and he said he has elected some members from the staff to whom he will show preferential treatment but he does not say which?
You know that he will sadistically torture for his pleasure those that are not elected.

Q: What if he is lying and no one is elected?
He does this for his sadistic pleasure of fooling some of his created beings to follow him and worship him but eventually he will torture and/or destroy all.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #24

Post by Veridican »

alexxcJRO wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:53 am
Don’t avoid please:

Q: What morality and goodness sir?
You believe God is a malevolent-sadistic being: literally creates the others to either perish or burn in hell for his pleasure.

Q: Why trust in such a being? Why worship a being more cruel and malevolent-sadistic then Hitler?
Alright. First off, when did I ever say God was a malevolent-sadistic being? I didn't, and I wouldn't, because I don't judge God. And frankly, he can do whatever he wants to do. What do you want me to do about it?
Why trust such a being? What else am I going to do? Be an atheist like you? That doesn't change anything. If God is fooling me, leading me down a path of destruction for his pleasure, there is NOTHING I can do about that. Nor can you.

Why worship God (And you are correct, He created and allowed Hitler and the Nazis to operate for a time)? Because I am His creature. My realization of that, and my fear of Him has led to a respect of him, and gradually, he has shown more and more of Himself to me over the course of my life. Now, I see all His Grace and Mercy in my life, and so now, I love Him, as much as a mere creature is capable of that anyway.

But you're an atheist, right? So, what do you care? Why do you get all whingy and winey about God when you claim you don't even believe He exists?
Veridican wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:23 pm
Q: Why trust a being that is malevolent and may be lying?
See my answer above.
Q: Would you trust Hitler if you were a member of his staff and he said he has elected some members from the staff to whom he will show preferential treatment but he does not say which?
You know that he will sadistically torture for his pleasure those that are not elected.
No, I wouldn't. But Hitler was a man, not God. Hitler is not my creator. You're comparing apples and oranges. God and Hitler do not differ by degree; they differ in kind. And I don't know all the motivations of God. I know the kind of person that is Elect, but I don't know why they grew up being that kind of person and another does not.

But, you know, God experiences every single bit of suffering and pleasure he causes. He experienced the death of every single Jew that died in WWII. He experienced the death of Hitler, too. And though He created everything, what does he get from it--atheists like yourself.
Q: What if he is lying and no one is elected?
He does this for his sadistic pleasure of fooling some of his created beings to follow him and worship him but eventually he will torture and/or destroy all.
Yep. like on Judgment Day, you get there, and you think you've been living your life for Him, and He nonchalantly sends you to hell and laughs while you burn--a horrible physical torture as well as a horrible mental torture. Like a mother who holds her child under water to kill it.

But that's not your concern, because if He does that to you, you will know that you deserved it, right? I mean, you reject him right here and now and He's not even torturing you--presumably. You spit in God's face while He's being kind to you. You mock his mercy and grace. You mock his servants and all you do is take from His hand and then bite it. So, when you are in hell, unlike me, you will at least know that you deserve it.

And actually, that last bit is not entirely true: There is a part of me that knows it deserves hell--probably way more than you. But, I have to set those feelings aside because the Holy Spirit has shown me that I have been transformed into Christ, and I feel it, too. So, I can't condemn what I am. I have to treat myself with respect because of what God has transformed me into. And here's the irony: It is as wrong for me to condemn myself as it is for you to think you deserve God's love. Funny when you think about it. :evil_laugh:
All for Christ and only for Christ! :wave:

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #25

Post by alexxcJRO »

Veridican wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:32 am Alright. First off, when did I ever say God was a malevolent-sadistic being? I didn't, and I wouldn't, because I don't judge God. And frankly, he can do whatever he wants to do. What do you want me to do about it?
Why trust such a being? What else am I going to do? Be an atheist like you? That doesn't change anything. If God is fooling me, leading me down a path of destruction for his pleasure, there is NOTHING I can do about that. Nor can you.
You said: “literally creates the others to either perish or burn in hell for his pleasure.” Ergo malevolent and sadistic. This is true conform the definitions of the word.

malevolent
adjective
literary
UK
/məˈlev.əl.ənt/ US
/məˈlev.əl.ənt/

causing or wanting to cause harm or evil:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... malevolent
sadistic
adjective

sa·dis·tic | \ sə-ˈdi-stik also sā- or sa- \
Definition of sadistic
: of, relating to, or characterized by sadismsadistic fantasies: taking pleasure in the infliction of pain, punishment, or humiliation on others
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sadistic

Veridican wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:32 am Why worship God (And you are correct, He created and allowed Hitler and the Nazis to operate for a time)? Because I am His creature. My realization of that, and my fear of Him has led to a respect of him, and gradually, he has shown more and more of Himself to me over the course of my life. Now, I see all His Grace and Mercy in my life, and so now, I love Him, as much as a mere creature is capable of that anyway.
You love him and you may be not be among the elect.
You love a being that will inflict great suffering and pain to people you know and maybe even you.
You admit he may be deceiving you:"If God is fooling me, leading me down a path of destruction for his pleasure".
Veridican wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:32 am But you're an atheist, right? So, what do you care? Why do you get all whingy and winey about God when you claim you don't even believe He exists?
It’s a debate forum. People debate ideas. Daaaah.
Veridican wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:32 am No, I wouldn't. But Hitler was a man, not God. Hitler is not my creator. You're comparing apples and oranges. God and Hitler do not differ by degree; they differ in kind. And I don't know all the motivations of God. I know the kind of person that is Elect, but I don't know why they grew up being that kind of person and another does not.

But, you know, God experiences every single bit of suffering and pleasure he causes. He experienced the death of every single Jew that died in WWII. He experienced the death of Hitler, too. And though He created everything, what does he get from it--atheists like yourself.
Q: But if God exhibits the same kind of behaviour: malevolence, sadism and cruelty and because you would not trust Hitler why trust God?
You are not making any sense.
You may in fact not be the elect.
And your beloved God may inflict great suffering and pain on you for his pleasure.


Veridican wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:32 am You spit in God's face while He's being kind to you. You mock his mercy and grace. You mock his servants and all you do is take from His hand and then bite it. So, when you are in hell, unlike me, you will at least know that you deserve it.
Sir you said: “literally creates the others to either perish or burn in hell for his pleasure.”
Q: What mercy and grace? :confused2:
Hitler had few(elect) he did not showed malevolence, sadism and cruelty.
Your supposed God is no different.
Veridican wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:32 am
But, I have to set those feelings aside because the Holy Spirit has shown me that I have been transformed into Christ, and I feel it, too.
You are not making any sense.
Q: If some are elect how can there be transformation?
Either you are among the elect or not.

Veridican wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:32 am as it is for you to think you deserve God's love.
Q: So I cannot transform like you did?
Sir for your knowledge I was a Protestant Christian feeling the Holy Ghost and all.
No longer. The silly days are over.

Veridican wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:32 am Yep. like on Judgment Day, you get there, and you think you've been living your life for Him
Q: What Judgment Day sir? You said some are elected and the rest not.
Veridican wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:32 am He nonchalantly sends you to hell and laughs while you burn--a horrible physical torture as well as a horrible mental torture. Like a mother who holds her child under water to kill it.
So much for mercy and grace. Clear malevolence, cruelty and sadism.
It baffles me your think such being deserves worship or love.
Q: Why do you think I deserve such cruel punishment: being physical-psychological tortured forever?
Veridican wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:32 am I mean, you reject him right here and now and He's not even torturing you--presumably. You spit in God's face while He's being kind to you. You mock his mercy and grace. You mock his servants and all you do is take from His hand and then bite it.
Sir I cannot reject something I don’t believe in.
Q: Do you reject Allah, Brahma?
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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #26

Post by Veridican »

alexxcJRO wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:11 am
You love him and you may be not be among the elect.
You love a being that will inflict great suffering and pain to people you know and maybe even you.
You admit he may be deceiving you:"If God is fooling me, leading me down a path of destruction for his pleasure".
Correct.
Veridican wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:32 am It’s a debate forum. People debate ideas. Daaaah.
So, you admit this is nothing more than chemicals interacting for no reason whatsoever. There is no truth, and even if there is, we can't benefit from it. We are merely physical reactions in an unconscious universe. Your indignation at God--really--is nothing.

Isn't that right?
Veridican wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:32 am Q: But if God exhibits the same kind of behaviour: malevolence, sadism and cruelty and because you would not trust Hitler why trust God?
You are not making any sense.
You may in fact not be the elect.
And your beloved God may inflict great suffering and pain on you for his pleasure.
Correct.
But what difference does that make to you? You are an atheist--or so you say--so, you will cease to exist when you die, and that's it. Or you will burn in hell because you are, actually, actively against Jesus Christ.
Veridican wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:32 am Sir you said: “literally creates the others to either perish or burn in hell for his pleasure.”
Q: What mercy and grace? :confused2:
Hitler had few(elect) he did not showed malevolence, sadism and cruelty.
Your supposed God is no different.
I've already asked you not to call me sir. Call me sir one more time, and I assure you, this conversation is over. As for the rest of what you said, work on your English, because I can't understand what you mean.
You are not making any sense.
Q: If some are elect how can there be transformation?
Either you are among the elect or not.
What's the problem? If you are "elected" then you will be transformed. There may be some choice involved on the human side; I don't know. I was elected when I was 9. I would have never rejected it at that age. You may have never been elected, but for some reason have the sense to be searching for it.

Q: So I cannot transform like you did?
Sir for your knowledge I was a Protestant Christian feeling the Holy Ghost and all.
No longer. The silly days are over.
Again, after this exchange, if you call me sir, it's over.

As for whether you can transform or not into Christ, I have no idea. That's up to the Father, not up to me. When Jesus says not to judge, that's exactly the judgement he's talking about, and I won't judge you. For your sake, I hope you can transform and that perhaps we are having this conversation to that end. Because otherwise, you burn in hell. You know all about Christ and you have rejected him. You even felt the Holy Spirit in your life, and you still rejected him. You call them "silly days." You might have just as well driven the nails into the hands and feet of Jesus. If you were to die right now, I know, God would roast you for a very long time--if not eternally. You cause Him pain, and he causes you pain. And in causing you pain, he feels pleasure. When you think about it spiritually, it makes sense. Perfect sense. I'm not wishing that on you. I'm telling you that while you live, you have time to turn. I know you can turn, because you already did turn. But you are in a state of rebellion now. Now, you are actively rejecting Christ. And that's very bad.

Actually, I feel sorry for you. Because I know what God is going to do to you. Even when I was in the occult, even when I considered myself a witch and a sorcerer, I still gave God His due respect. I still respected Jesus Christ (I just considered him a "Grand Sorcerer"). I'm not stupid. You calling your spiritual experience, "Silly days" is very very stupid.


Q: Why do you think I deserve such cruel punishment: being physical-psychological tortured forever?
Because you actively reject Christ. You are no different, spiritually speaking, than the Romans who nailed him to a cross. And here is where you are really screwed up. You think you can make God--whom you used to serve, and believed in, and felt his Holy Spirit--you think you can make Him unreal by not believing in Him. You can't. You need to know that. You are not like some Chinese person who grew up a Buddhist. You know the truth, and you reject it.

But I will tell you this: While you live, you have a chance to turn it all around. Every passing moment is another chance to turn it all around. And then you become like the lost sheep that Jesus leaves the other 99 to go and find; you become like the prodigal son, like I was. But if you die tomorrow in your abominable sin--and you know that it is just that--God will send you to hell to watch you burn and will take great pleasure in it.

Of course, I don't know that for a fact because I don't psychically know your heart. God does. I'm just going by what you tell me.

Sir I cannot reject something I don’t believe in.
Q: Do you reject Allah, Brahma?
Allah is just an Arabic name for God. Brahma is a Hindu name for God. We--or at least "I"--am Western. I use the term, "God." So, no, technically I do not in any way, nor would I ever, reject Allah or Brahma. And F... you if you say you cannot reject something you don't believe in. You wouldn't be here talking to me if that were the case. Hanging around a religious forum like this is stupid if you don't believe. You believe. You are simply actively in rebellion. I know. I've been there. You have the rest of your physical life to turn that around. That's the whole purpose of this zoo to begin with. I wish you the best of luck. Honestly, I do.

And I want to reiterate: Call me "sir" again, and I will never speak to you again. Okay? English may be your second language, so I will tell you that to repeatedly call someone "sir" in English when you are equal to them is patronizing and insulting. So, stop it. Okay? Thank you.

By the way, if you choose to come home, be a Veridican. The Church Age ended 30 years ago.
All for Christ and only for Christ! :wave:

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #27

Post by alexxcJRO »

Veridican wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:02 am Correct.
Q: So why do your trust or love such a malevolent, sadistic, cruel being that may fool you, leading you down a path of destruction for his pleasure, according to your own admission?
Veridican wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:02 am Correct.
But what difference does that make to you? You are an atheist--or so you say--so, you will cease to exist when you die, and that's it. Or you will burn in hell because you are, actually, actively against Jesus Christ.
Please answer:
Q: But if God exhibits the same kind of behaviour: malevolence, sadism and cruelty as Hitler and because you would not trust Hitler, why trust God?
Veridican wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:02 am
I've already asked you not to call me sir. Call me sir one more time, and I assure you, this conversation is over. As for the rest of what you said, work on your English, because I can't understand what you mean.
sir
/səː/
noun
1. used as a polite or respectful way of addressing a man, especially one in a position of authority.
"excuse me, sir"
https://www.google.com/search?client=op ... 8&oe=UTF-8
No need to lecture me about my English. I bet you can’t speak as fluently a foreign language as I speak English.
Veridican wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:02 am What's the problem? If you are "elected" then you will be transformed. There may be some choice involved on the human side; I don't know. I was elected when I was 9. I would have never rejected it at that age. You may have never been elected, but for some reason have the sense to be searching for it.
As for whether you can transform or not into Christ, I have no idea. That's up to the Father, not up to me. When Jesus says not to judge, that's exactly the judgement he's talking about, and I won't judge you. For your sake, I hope you can transform and that perhaps we are having this conversation to that end. Because otherwise, you burn in hell. You know all about Christ and you have rejected him
You said: “he seems to create favorites (the Elect) and literally creates the others to either perish or burn in hell for his pleasure.”
You said God created the favorites-elected and the non-elected.
So either one is elected, a favorite and benefits from preferential treatment from God.
Or one is non-elected and does not benefits from preferential treatment from God for he/she was created only to either perish or burn in hell for his pleasure.

So if you are non-elected it does not matter what you do.
Q: How do you know you are indeed elected?
Q: What if your mistaken? What if God laughs at you right now saying:"Look at this simpleton believing he is elected when in fact I will burn him in hell for my pleasure".

Veridican wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:02 am I'm telling you that while you live, you have time to turn. I know you can turn, because you already did turn. But you are in a state of rebellion now. Now, you are actively rejecting Christ. And that's very bad.
But I will tell you this: While you live, you have a chance to turn it all around. Every passing moment is another chance to turn it all around. And then you become like the lost sheep that Jesus leaves the other 99 to go and find; you become like the prodigal son, like I was. But if you die tomorrow in your abominable sin--and you know that it is just that--God will send you to hell to watch you burn and will take great pleasure in it.

Of course, I don't know that for a fact because I don't psychically know your heart. God does. I'm just going by what you tell me.
Q: But what if I am among the non-elected created only to burn for God’s pleasure?
It does not matter what I do.
Veridican wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:02 am Actually, I feel sorry for you. Because I know what God is going to do to you. Even when I was in the occult, even when I considered myself a witch and a sorcerer, I still gave God His due respect. I still respected Jesus Christ (I just considered him a "Grand Sorcerer"). I'm not stupid. You calling your spiritual experience, "Silly days" is very very stupid.
I now know Yahweh-Jesus is just a logical impossibility, just a fabrication of ancient goat herders.
Veridican wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:02 am Because you actively reject Christ. You are no different, spiritually speaking, than the Romans who nailed him to a cross. And here is where you are really screwed up. You think you can make God--whom you used to serve, and believed in, and felt his Holy Spirit--you think you can make Him unreal by not believing in Him. You can't. You need to know that. You are not like some Chinese person who grew up a Buddhist. You know the truth, and you reject it.
Sir I already told you I genuinely don’t believe in Yahweh-Jesus.
Q: Again how can I reject something I genuinely don’t believe in?
Veridican wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:02 am Allah is just an Arabic name for God. Brahma is a Hindu name for God. We--or at least "I"--am Western. I use the term, "God." So, no, technically I do not in any way, nor would I ever, reject Allah or Brahma.
According to Islamists Jesus is not God but a prophet like Mohamed.
According to Hindus reincarnation is real.
According to Christians Jesus is God and after death one either goes to Heaven or Hell.
The above statements cannot be all be true because they contain mutually exclusive claims.
So you have to dismiss something cuz’ of logically impossibility.
So again I ask:
Q: Do you reject Allah, Brahma?
Veridican wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:02 am
And F... you if you say you cannot reject something you don't believe in. You wouldn't be here talking to me if that were the case. Hanging around a religious forum like this is stupid if you don't believe. You believe. You are simply actively in rebellion. I know. I've been there.

1. You got mad for me using a polite or respectful way of addressing one:”sir" while you come here and swear at me. Bad form.
2. I am telling you I genuinely don’t believe. I cannot reject something I genuinely don’t believe in.
Veridican wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:02 am You have the rest of your physical life to turn that around. That's the whole purpose of this zoo to begin with. I wish you the best of luck. Honestly, I do.
But if I am not elected it does not matter.
I was created to either perish or burn in hell for God’s pleasure.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #28

Post by Veridican »

alexxcJRO wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:58 am
Veridican wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:02 am You have the rest of your physical life to turn that around. That's the whole purpose of this zoo to begin with. I wish you the best of luck. Honestly, I do.
But if I am not elected it does not matter.
I was created to either perish or burn in hell for God’s pleasure.
That's a good point. Honestly, I am going to have to re-think my position on evangelism. Because that is right. It doesn't matter what you do if you are not Elect. :-k
All for Christ and only for Christ! :wave:

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

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After giving this a lot of thought on my morning walk, it is clear that my previous hard stance on election cannot be correct. There has to be some element of choice an individual uses in coming to Christ. The Gospel is saturated with that assumption. The Articles of Faith of Veridicanism imply it. If one has no choice, then one would be like the animals, and by default they would be innocent, like the animals. Their fate would be that of the animals, which is largely unknown. They may exist on the astral plane if God chooses to remember them, or they may perish upon death. Who knows?

But a thinking human being who has knowledge of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ can, absolutely, make a choice--and I think they have to make a choice.

One might argue that if God knows what choice they will make, then they are not really free to choose. And I must say, it is one of the mysteries of creation that has always baffled me. How can a monistic being create an entity that can make a free choice? Maybe he has an attribute of independence, and we are all modalities of that attribute. At this point, I simply don't know. For that matter, perhaps God doesn't know. Perhaps he has an attribute that his consciousness does not understand and this whole game is about the consciousness of God trying to understand that aspect of himself. Like I said, at this point I just don't know.
All for Christ and only for Christ! :wave:

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #30

Post by William »

[Replying to Veridican in post #29]
After giving this a lot of thought on my morning walk, it is clear that my previous hard stance on election cannot be correct. There has to be some element of choice an individual uses in coming to Christ. The Gospel is saturated with that assumption. The Articles of Faith of Veridicanism imply it. If one has no choice, then one would be like the animals, and by default they would be innocent, like the animals. Their fate would be that of the animals, which is largely unknown. They may exist on the astral plane if God chooses to remember them, or they may perish upon death. Who knows?
It depends.

If we are speaking about character personalities which have been shaped by the human experience in relation to the Spirit Beings which animate/make possible for the creation of said personalities;

Then on the premise that the "Spirit Beings" are and always have been immortal - then 'what is not saved' re said personalities created, is that which is lost to the Spirit Being involved with the development of that personality.

If the personality doesn't come 'up to spec' it is dumped from the program and does not get to 'level up' into the Astral experience.

However, it is unknow if there is any remnant imprint left on the memory of the Spirit Being who loses said personality or if the deleting of said personality acts as a memory-wipe.
One might argue that if God knows what choice they will make, then they are not really free to choose. And I must say, it is one of the mysteries of creation that has always baffled me. How can a monistic being create an entity that can make a free choice?
By inventing a Universe which can allow for that to happen.

One can observe the data of experience of an individual personality and make accurate predictions as to whether that personality will make the grade or not, if one is in a position of access to said data.

A Spirit Being is a type of outpost of form to the Overall Spirit which is "God" and thus by the nature of that connection, the God would have access to all data of experience individuate Spirits are collecting through the experience of the personality they are connected with.

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