Divine Hiddenness

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Mattman
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Divine Hiddenness

Post #1

Post by Mattman »

I love discussing/debating arguments related to God's existence and Christianity, and I have a voice chat group I'm putting together to do that. Send me a PM if you're interested in participating or listening in.

Below is a brief summarized version of an argument. I'd love to hear your thoughts!
____
Thesis: The Argument from Divine Hiddenness is not sound.

Dr. Shellenberg says that any perfectly loving being would make sure that every creature *willing* to be in a life-giving reciprocal relationship with him would be *able* to be. Nonetheless, there appear to be people who, though they would be happy to be in a relationship with God, find themselves unable to believe that God exists. Dr. Shellenberg refers to this experience as reasonable nonbelief, and we can express his argument this way:

1. If there is a God, he is perfectly loving.

2. If a perfectly loving God exists, reasonable nonbelief does not occur.

3. Reasonable nonbelief occurs.

4. Therefore, no perfectly loving God exists.

5. Therefore, there is no God.

_____
From here on out, I'll refer to the argument above as "DH." I'll present what I take to be the strongest objection.

First, consider that the nontheist supports premise three by appealing to testimony. People report having experiences of reasonable nonbelief, and the nontheist maintains that this testimony has evidentiary value.

Next, notice that if God does not exist, then people cannot have authentic experiences of God. The nontheist isn't committed to any particular account for why people report such incidents, but he does seem committed to the view that such people aren't authentically experiencing God. If DH is sound, then the nontheist must reject the testimony of Christians who report firsthand experiences of God. By logical equivalence, if the nontheist accepts Christians' testimony, he must deny DH.

In short, DH shows that the testimony of firsthand experiences of God conflicts with the testimony of reasonable nonbelief. How are we to decide which testimony to accept? There are vastly more believers than nonbelievers. If, as the nontheist must insist, the testimony of this sort has evidentiary value, then the believers' testimony has more evidentiary value than the nonbelievers' in virtue of the larger number of witnesses.

To illustrate, imagine that you are a journalist in New York and you've just seen a parade go past. Suppose you interview six people: five report having seen a float pass with Santa Clause on top and the sixth reports having seen no float at all despite being in front where he'd have been able to see it. What would you conclude had happened? You can't accept all of their testimony since their testimony conflicts. It seems you would be within your rights to take the testimony of the five who saw the float and disregard the testimony of the one who didn't. At a minimum, it would be reasonable to withhold judgment and remain agnostic about whether or not the float passed.

In the same way, it seems you would be within your rights to accept the testimony of Christians and reject the testimony of nonbelievers. At a minimum, it would be reasonable to withhold judgment about whether people experience either God or reasonable nonbelief. If, however, we remain agnostic about the occurrence of reasonable nonbelief, then DH fails.

There is a way out of this problem such that the nonbeliever need not disregard anyone's testimony. Namely, he can accept premise three and reject premise 2. Even so, DH remains unsound.

_____

Sources:

Jones, Michael. “Divine Hiddenness: A Christian Response.” YouTube, uploaded by Inspiring Philosophy, 8 Feb. 2019, https://youtu.be/3YvXeLtdVBE, accessed 22 Feb. 2022.

Meister, Chad. Evil and the Hiddenness of God. God and Evil: The Case for God in a World Filled with Pain. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2013.

Speak, Daniel. The Problem of Evil. Cambridge: Polity Press, 2015.
Last edited by Mattman on Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #11

Post by Mattman »

[Replying to alexxcJRO in post #9]

The issue is not genuine nonbelief. Someone can genuinely disbelieve but be culpable for their disbelief. Perhaps they are dismissive of the evidence or resistant to God in some way. What's at issue with DH is reasonable (or non-culpable) nonbelief. Certainly, such a type of belief would also be genuine, but it's the non-culpability of the belief that raises the issue.

Notice, for example, the vitriolic nature with which you refer to Christianity. It certainly does not appear to me that you exhibit the sort of unbelief Schellenberg is appealing to in order to justify his argument. As I point out in the OP, there doesn't seem to be any way that Schellenberg can justify that crucial premise.

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #12

Post by alexxcJRO »

Mattman wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:39 am The issue is not genuine nonbelief. Someone can genuinely disbelieve but be culpable for their disbelief. Perhaps they are dismissive of the evidence or resistant to God in some way. What's at issue with DH is reasonable (or non-culpable) nonbelief. Certainly, such a type of belief would also be genuine, but it's the non-culpability of the belief that raises the issue.
You say you reject P7 then you say genuine disbelief exists.
Q: Which one is it then?

Mattman wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:39 am Notice, for example, the vitriolic nature with which you refer to Christianity. It certainly does not appear to me that you exhibit the sort of unbelief Schellenberg is appealing to in order to justify his argument. As I point out in the OP, there doesn't seem to be any way that Schellenberg can justify that crucial premise.
Sir I think Yahweh is logically impossible.
I cannot therefore have a belief that Yahweh exists.
Q: Do you have positive beliefs in things you deem illogical and impossible? :blink:

Q: What about the billions of people that have a genuine disbelief in your God? Muslim fanatical terrorists killing themselves and others in the name of Allah? Hindus believing in the reincarnation of Sathya Say Baba?

Q: How would you feel if Islamists tell you that in fact your believe in Allah not Yahweh, how would you respond?
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #13

Post by Mattman »

[Replying to alexxcJRO in post #12]

I had previously mistook you to be engaging with the argument from divine hiddenness since that was the subject of the OP. It was for that reason that I mistook your reference to "genuine disbelief" as intended to be a reference to "nonculpable nonbelief" (the topic of DH).

Since you are now raising a different argument, it is off-topic from the OP. I'll just say in passing that I can't see why God would be interested in overcoming genuine but culpable disbelief. If someone is resistant to God or resistant to a relationship with him, I don't see why God would be very concerned about the propositional content of their beliefs about his existence. At a minimum, such a contention would require significant justification.

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #14

Post by alexxcJRO »

Mattman wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:29 am [Replying to alexxcJRO in post #12]

I had previously mistook you to be engaging with the argument from divine hiddenness since that was the subject of the OP. It was for that reason that I mistook your reference to "genuine disbelief" as intended to be a reference to "nonculpable nonbelief" (the topic of DH).

Since you are now raising a different argument, it is off-topic from the OP. I'll just say in passing that I can't see why God would be interested in overcoming genuine but culpable disbelief. If someone is resistant to God or resistant to a relationship with him, I don't see why God would be very concerned about the propositional content of their beliefs about his existence. At a minimum, such a contention would require significant justification.
Q: So you don't agree with the definition: G = God: Yahweh-Jesus on omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being-perfectly good being who wants humans to believe in him and a personal relationship with them based on trust, love?
Q: Does Yahweh-Jesus do not want me to believe in him? Or have a relationship with me?

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #15

Post by Mattman »

[Replying to alexxcJRO in post #14]
Q: So you don't agree with the definition: G = God: Yahweh-Jesus on omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being-perfectly good being who wants humans to believe in him and a personal relationship with them based on trust, love?
I do believe God is as you describe.
Q: Does Yahweh-Jesus do not want me to believe in him? Or have a relationship with me?
I don't know if God wants you to believe in him, although I do believe he wants a relationship with you. It may be the case that your belief in him will not lead to a relationship, and as such, I wouldn't expect him to want you to believe in him.

In fact, a case could be made that he would want you to disbelieve in him. If you believe in him and still reject him then that will be a greater evil than if you'd never believed in him at all. It may be the case that, knowing that you will respond negatively to belief in him, he hides from you.

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #16

Post by alexxcJRO »

Mattman wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:15 am [Replying to alexxcJRO in post #14]
Q: So you don't agree with the definition: G = God: Yahweh-Jesus on omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being-perfectly good being who wants humans to believe in him and a personal relationship with them based on trust, love?
I do believe God is as you describe.
Q: Does Yahweh-Jesus do not want me to believe in him? Or have a relationship with me?
I don't know if God wants you to believe in him, although I do believe he wants a relationship with you. It may be the case that your belief in him will not lead to a relationship, and as such, I wouldn't expect him to want you to believe in him.

In fact, a case could be made that he would want you to disbelieve in him. If you believe in him and still reject him then that will be a greater evil than if you'd never believed in him at all. It may be the case that, knowing that you will respond negatively to belief in him, he hides from you.
1. You say you agree with my definition which includes: “who wants humans to believe in him” and then you say “I don't know if God wants you to believe in him”.
You are contradicting yourself.

2. So God wants to have a relationship with me yet he remains in such a way hidden that I genuinely disbelieve it exists, when in fact has the power to stop that from happening.
Q: How is that no illogical?

3. So billions of genuine disbeliefs can be explained away with “knowing they will respond negatively to belief in him, he hides from them”.
Q: How is logically possible having billions of free willed humans all doing the same thing coincidently, huh?
Common.

Q: How do you know I and the billions of Yahweh's atheists will reject him?

Q: What if I and some of the billions of Yahweh's atheists reject him at first but then change our minds? We have free will, no? It is possible. Most likely will happen.

Q: How do you know you are not in the same position as me, and that maybe the true shy God Allah hides from you?
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #17

Post by Veridican »

alexxcJRO wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:42 am
Q: What morality and goodness sir? :blink: :writers_block: :confused2:
You believe God is a malevolent-sadistic being: literally creates the others to either perish or burn in hell for his pleasure.

Q: Why trust in such a being? Why worship a being more cruel and malevolent-sadistic then Hitler?
Those are your questions to answer, not mine.

Q: How do you know you are among the elect?
Because I came from the Light. I came from the place where the Light came into being on its own. I know the voice of God, and I know God is my father. And when I read about Christ, I am reading about myself. There is no longer a separation. You, however, as an atheist, will never understand what I am talking about. For you to even ask one such as me that question is utterly pointless. My answer cannot mean anything to you. You are of the lost. I am of the Elect.


I will burn. Thanks.
Sucks for you. But look! You don't have a problem with it. You're laughing about it. So, am I supposed to be worried or concerned for you? You're not even concerned for you.
That is so cringy. LOL.
This is how it starts folks.
To get to genocides and malevolence of incredible proportions one just needs to start believe such preposterous garbage. :shock:
All for Christ and only for Christ! :wave:

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #18

Post by Mattman »

[Replying to alexxcJRO in post #16]
1. You say you agree with my definition which includes: “who wants humans to believe in him” and then you say “I don't know if God wants you to believe in him”.
You are contradicting yourself.
No, your definition included the conjunction, "wants humans to believe in him and a personal relationship with them based on trust, love." This is a conjunction of two things (belief and trust/love). Saying that God wants the conjunction does not commit me to the claim that God desires one conjunct without the other.
2. So God wants to have a relationship with me yet he remains in such a way hidden that I genuinely disbelieve it exists, when in fact has the power to stop that from happening.
Q: How is that no illogical?
You are making the assumption that, if you believed, then you would respond positively to that belief. I do not make that assumption.
3. So billions of genuine disbeliefs can be explained away with “knowing they will respond negatively to belief in him, he hides from them”.
Q: How is logically possible having billions of free willed humans all doing the same thing coincidently, huh?
Common.
There are billions of people who report immediate experiences of God (and the Christian God in particular).
Q: How do you know I and the billions of Yahweh's atheists will reject him?
This is not a question for me to answer since I'm not the proponent of an argument against God's existence here. You'd need to give some reason to believe that you wouldn't reject him if only you believed. It's your burden to prove your argument.
Q: What if I and some of the billions of Yahweh's atheists reject him at first but then change our minds? We have free will, no? It is possible. Most likely will happen.
Many atheists do convert to Christianity.
Q: How do you know you are not in the same position as me, and that maybe the true shy God Allah hides from you?
I don't see how this supports an argument against God's existence. Remember that the non-theist has the burden to prove his argument, it doesn't fall to me to prove it wrong.

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #19

Post by alexxcJRO »

Mattman wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:47 am No, your definition included the conjunction, "wants humans to believe in him and a personal relationship with them based on trust, love." This is a conjunction of two things (belief and trust/love). Saying that God wants the conjunction does not commit me to the claim that God desires one conjunct without the other.
You said you don't know if god wants me to believe in him.
You said you agree that god wants me to believe in him.
Q: How is that not a contradiction?
Mattman wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:47 am This is not a question for me to answer since I'm not the proponent of an argument against God's existence here. You'd need to give some reason to believe that you wouldn't reject him if only you believed. It's your burden to prove your argument.
My argument is about billions of free willed people who disbelieve sir.
Don’t straw-man please.

Mattman wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:47 am Many atheists do convert to Christianity.
Q: So why does God hides then?
Satan and the devils reject him yet God does not hides from them.
Judas rejected God yet God did not hide from him. God knew this in advance.

Mattman wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:47 am There are billions of people who report immediate experiences of God (and the Christian God in particular).
Q: How is that making away with the fact that billions of free willed humans all doing the same thing coincidently, they disbelieve in the real god yet if they knew of the real god they would all reject?
But wait a minute that does not really happen for you admit some will not reject.
Your not making any sense.

Mattman wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:47 am I don't see how this supports an argument against God's existence. Remember that the non-theist has the burden to prove his argument, it doesn't fall to me to prove it wrong.
This fuels into the argument from confusion, contrariety.
Imagine all religious people making mutually exclusive claims: My shy God is real which hides from you.
Islamists say this to the rest. Christians say this to the rest. Mormons says this to the rest. And so one.
They cannot be all right.
This proves that if only one god is real he will have to reveal(no logical reason for hiddenness) for there is proof some will not reject since they already want to have a relationship but don’t know they are having it with a fake god.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: Divine Hiddenness

Post #20

Post by alexxcJRO »

Veridican wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:24 am Those are your questions to answer, not mine.
Don’t avoid please:
Q: What morality and goodness sir?
You believe God is a malevolent-sadistic being: literally creates the others to either perish or burn in hell for his pleasure.

Q: Why trust in such a being? Why worship a being more cruel and malevolent-sadistic then Hitler?

Veridican wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:24 am Because I came from the Light. I came from the place where the Light came into being on its own. I know the voice of God, and I know God is my father. And when I read about Christ, I am reading about myself. There is no longer a separation. You, however, as an atheist, will never understand what I am talking about. For you to even ask one such as me that question is utterly pointless. My answer cannot mean anything to you. You are of the lost. I am of the Elect.
You only asserting you know.
Q: What if your mistaken?
Q: But if God is malevolent how can you trust his words? Maybe he lied?
Veridican wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:24 am
Sucks for you. But look! You don't have a problem with it. You're laughing about it. So, am I supposed to be worried or concerned for you? You're not even concerned for you.
You should be concerned for yourself because of the reasons above.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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