The idealistic distortion of manifest destiny from QT.

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Excubis
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The idealistic distortion of manifest destiny from QT.

Post #1

Post by Excubis »

There is a distortion of elements from quantum mechanics that people are now applying to manifest a reality/destiny.

There is no part, that thought creates a reality in the quantum realm, it is by observation only do reactions manifest / change. This is a misconception that is continually being perpetuated in new age type spiritualism of a connected consciousness to manifest reality. The main proponent of this is Heart Math a private research center to sell products and inventions so one can tune in to this consciousness and manifest their ideal reality. This is not what occurs in QM, what actually is happening is that where we think something should be it will not, also what form or interaction that which is occurring is not what we thought it would be. This is actually the opposite of a connected consciousness. We by our standard Laws of Thought do not control what is going to or how things will occur, no amount of thought changes reality except if thought is shared and collectively accepted, than it takes action for it to manifest.

Why can such schools of thought work to aid one to change their life, well attitude matters when one faces change. When one believes it will occur we will often begin to take actions unconsciously to achieve the goal, such idealistic views as "The Secret" is not a 'secret' it is thought in motion, i.e. action and usually proactive to bring about desired goal. This in medical field is known as placebo effect, were just thinking you will get better will make you better. This has a logical biological reason, lack of stress, we nor any organisms natural healing abilities are lessened when under stress. So less stress means better healing, there is no reason to differentiate between thought and biological functions, once again chicken or the egg.

Do you think there is merit to manifest destiny beyond one's own attitudes, or is there a real actual physical process that thought manifest reality without action?

I am doing a thesis and just want some pro cons and perhaps different directions of thought. I do not want to debate but may ask questions of if I find intriguing. I'm stuck on the pro side of why and am trying to steer away from an reference only to theism but am finding it difficult to see a difference.

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Re: The idealistic distortion of manifest destiny from QT.

Post #2

Post by BwhoUR »

Excubis wrote:
There is a distortion of elements from quantum mechanics that people are now applying to manifest a reality/destiny.

There is no part, that thought creates a reality in the quantum realm, it is by observation only do reactions manifest / change. This is a misconception that is continually being perpetuated in new age type spiritualism of a connected consciousness to manifest reality. The main proponent of this is Heart Math a private research center to sell products and inventions so one can tune in to this consciousness and manifest their ideal reality. This is not what occurs in QM, what actually is happening is that where we think something should be it will not, also what form or interaction that which is occurring is not what we thought it would be. This is actually the opposite of a connected consciousness. We by our standard Laws of Thought do not control what is going to or how things will occur, no amount of thought changes reality except if thought is shared and collectively accepted, than it takes action for it to manifest.

Why can such schools of thought work to aid one to change their life, well attitude matters when one faces change. When one believes it will occur we will often begin to take actions unconsciously to achieve the goal, such idealistic views as "The Secret" is not a 'secret' it is thought in motion, i.e. action and usually proactive to bring about desired goal. This in medical field is known as placebo effect, were just thinking you will get better will make you better. This has a logical biological reason, lack of stress, we nor any organisms natural healing abilities are lessened when under stress. So less stress means better healing, there is no reason to differentiate between thought and biological functions, once again chicken or the egg.

Do you think there is merit to manifest destiny beyond one's own attitudes, or is there a real actual physical process that thought manifest reality without action?

I am doing a thesis and just want some pro cons and perhaps different directions of thought. I do not want to debate but may ask questions of if I find intriguing. I'm stuck on the pro side of why and am trying to steer away from an reference only to theism but am finding it difficult to see a difference.


Here is a third way to look at "collectively accepted" manifest reality. What of the person who hears voices and looks around to see if other's hear it? That person, whose facial cues are off-putting to those around him who don't hear the voices but are actually reacting to a stranger looking at them funny, is reinforcing the normality of the voices by assuming/concluding that other's hear it too because of the "stocked" looks on their faces. This is a third way to look at manifest reality, that we have a propensity for denial of reality and that without a reality check, we can believe anything we want, even without others "collective acceptance."

Heartmath seems to be a company who believes in biofeedback. Biofeedback is a method, as you probably know, of getting your mind to control your physical mood. You can slow your breathing, heartbeat, calm yourself all by looking at and "training" your vital signs. It's different (I think) than the subconscious method such as those without hands who are experiencing phantom pain, if they look into a mirror reflecting their real hand and clench and unclench their real hand, their missing hand unclenches. Both are accomplished using the mind, but one is deliberate and the other subconscious and hard to explain how the second one works.

Heartmath, seems to be using a small con by the use of the word "math" which eludes to science and avoiding older terms like "biofeedback" and "positive reinforcement" and "team building." Obviously, like you said, if everyone in the group decides it's a good thing, it may work for them. People who are searching for something, IMO, like "discovering" new things even if it's an old thing in a new bottle.

The twist with Heartmath is that it utilizes "groups." Individuals connecting with other individuals, classrooms, companies, and military groups. How is this any different than mass hypnosis, peer pressure or team building exercises? They may have more success than working with individuals because of they employ group mentality but that is not QM, they are not changing the structure of the world, only their actions and reactions. They can't, for instance, stop stage four cancer or become billionaires simply by wishing it. Fun topic.

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Re: The idealistic distortion of manifest destiny from QT.

Post #3

Post by Divine Insight »

Excubis wrote: There is a distortion of elements from quantum mechanics that people are now applying to manifest a reality/destiny.
I agree that there are many different views on this subject and some of they are indeed a distortion of both quantum mechanics in general, as well as how the quantum mechanical nature of realty allows for basically "Free Will".

I think what many people fail to realize is that "Free Will" is the magical element of reality that allows us to have at least some control over our reality/destiny.
Excubis wrote: Do you think there is merit to manifest destiny beyond one's own attitudes, or is there a real actual physical process that thought manifest reality without action?
I would suggest that any mystical claims that thought alone can manifest reality without action are grossly misguided. It may be true that a trained mystic can control their heart rate, body temperature, and other physiological aspects of their being using meditation alone. However, that meditation include a conscious physical control over their own body. We know that our thoughts can and do control our body functions, so no mysticism is even required here.

However, when it comes to controlling the world external to our own bodies this requires action as well as thoughts. You mentions "The Secret", but that has been portrayed in an absolutely ridiculous manner. They seem to be suggesting that if you just wish hard enough you can just sit in a lounge chair wishing for a new car say, and then when you get up and walk out your door the new car will have been delivered right to your drive way. That is never going to work.

However, if you take control of your thoughts, AND APPLY those thoughts to your actions, you can change the course of your life so that you end up with a new car. Exactly how much "work" that will require will depend on how clever your thoughts and actions are. :-k

So your thoughts and actions create your reality within the limits of physical reality. One could suggest that thoughts alone hold the totality of responsibly simply because your thoughts are going to determine your actions, and your reactions to real world situations.

So there is a lot of truth in the claim that your thoughts can control your destiny. This is obviously also true even from a pure secular point of view (assuming the secularist believe in "Free Will". Without free will you wouldn't even have control over your own thoughts.

It is my personal opinion that quantum mechanics makes "Free Will" possible. And it does so precisely because of this weird property it has that "observation" plays a role in the outcome of quantum possibilities. I don't see these occurring in terms of any specific quantum events, but rather as a tendency of probabilities over a large number of quantum events. This is what make possible the "control" of the flow of our thoughts (in my opinion).

So there is a lot going on within our brains that will indeed be determined by our choice of thoughts.

People who reject this view often claim that these quantum effect cannot have an affect on our "macro world". I reject their rejection, pointing out that within our brains our thoughts are actually taking place within the quantum domain. All our thoughts are completely dependent upon photons, electrons, ions, etc. All quantum denizens. Therefore our thoughts are indeed influenced by and dependent upon quantum behaviors.

There is also a rejection that is often brought up that even if these quantum behaviors did influence our thoughts those influences would be random and therefore wouldn't have any constructive effect. Once again, I reject this notion, because, although single quantum events appear to be random this is not true of large quantities of quantum events that are associated with as single physical configuration. In other words, even though the landing of a single electron in a double slit experiment appears to be totally random there still exists the "probability distribution" of where many electrons will land given that configuration. So this quantum randomness isn't truly random at all. It merely reflect a single part of a larger probability distribution.

I hold that this is the same way that quantum effects work within our brains. It would be meaningless to look at a single quantum event of a single electron or photon and say, "And they single particle determined the outcome of that thought". That would be unreasonable. Moreover, if that's the way it would then thoughts would indeed be totally random.

I hold that it works more like the double-silt experiment. Our current thoughts set up configurations within our brains that cause "probability distributions" based upon the current configuration of our neural network (our brain). And it is those "probability distributions" that have greater meanings, from which we can choose.

To put it another way, quantum probability distributions are what give rise to patterns in our neural network. And similarly the current patterns within our neural networks are what gives rise to particular quantum probability distributions.
So this is an interactive process.

~~~~~~

All of the above is simply my personal description of how quantum effects manifest new thought patterns. However, I personally believe that there exist a "Spiritual Free Agent" who actually controls this entire process.

In other words, it's my hypothesis that while quantum mechanics makes "Free Will" possible, it is itself not the source of "Free Will". In order for this whole picture to work, IMHO, there still needs to be a mystical "Free Agent" that is actually running the show. And that "Free Agent" is the thing we call "I" or "me", or the "you" who is having this whole experience.

So my view is both a mystical and mechanical view. I believe there really is a physical world, but that the entire physical world is manifest by a spiritual entity. And I tend toward the Eastern Mystical view on this that says, "Tat t'vam Asi", meaning "You are That".

You are this underlying spiritual essence of reality and quantum mechanics is simply the mechanism that allows you to exercise your "Free Will" within this physical incarnation.

Of course, I don't claim that this hypothesis represents any actual truth. It's simply a philosophical paradigm that makes a lot of sense to me personally.

So I share it for whatever it is worth.

If Secularist Materialist can come up with a "better" explanation for how humans think non-randomly and can have "Free Will" then I'm all ears.

I have great difficulty with Secular Materialists who suggest that there is no such thing as "Free Will". That seems to me to be tossing out something that seems to obvious in favor of supporting a philosophy that basically claims we are nothing but "inanimate stuff" that doesn't' even have any free will.

I personally find that to be a very lacking hypothesis. It's neither compelling nor inviting. And for me personally that always leads to the question, "Ok then just exactly what is it that is having an experience then?"

Not only would the Secular Materialist need to toss out the notion of "Free Will", but they would also need to toss out the notion that anything is having an experience, and that seems to me to fly in the fact of something that should be quite obvious to anyone who is actually having an experience.

So this is why I lean toward the "mystical" picture of reality. Still only leaning though, because at the current time it's impossible to say for sure what the heck is actually going on. But one thing I know for certain, the pure Secular Materialists, are very FAR from having any rational convincing answers, IMHO.
[center]Image
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]

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Tanks

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Post #5

Post by Excubis »

Just to update I have not completed this. Might even scrap idea now not sure.

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