Musing On The Mother - ACT II

Discussion of anything to do with the 'why' questions of life.

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Musing On The Mother - ACT II

Post #1

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Post #81

Post by William »

Manu It: What do you think about that Penny? Does it matter if the name given as the source of The Message is "QueenBee" or "Jesus"?
As far as I can tell, it does not matter.


Penny Tuppence: Opening Doors Synchronicity Attitude Anti Christ Now Coincidence The Life Essence is Sovereign and Integral Mother Invention Eigengrau Apocalypse Joke/Humour A Matter of Knowing Where to Look Calm Bless You Syncretism Cataphatic Functional The God of The Bible Gypsies Theatre of the Mind Attention to Detail Hide This Duality/Dualities Children Opening Doors
Shuffle List
The Wayward Stick Grand Experiment Destination Universal Objectives The Moment Please Do Smarter Is there any such thing as 'Objective Morality' Doc Requirements Path Soul Groups Just Be…All Else Will Follow Your World F2+F4 Soul Groups Enfold Your House Work Mysterious process Provincial Thinking Science of Consciousness Vocal Chords Crazy Diamonds The Celestine Prophecy New Shifts In Thinking Divine
Prison Planet Your Own Individual Actions Mothers Milk The Establishment "You Have That Gleam In Your Eye" With "Put yourself in your own shoes" Communications Device God1 Doc Paradise The Wayward Stick
Shuffle List
Fireside Friend Puzzles/Mysteries...Re Abusive Expression Of All Types Sovereign Integral Network You may be Psychic, not mentally ill Changing The Rules A Clean Channel Contact With Freedom Untrue A Beautiful Song Panentheism An Elder Race Invite The Bee to Land Evil Gods Doc Zeros and Ones Doc Things Will Run Their Course
Source Intelligence and Lyricus facilitate the process throughout the Grand Universe Remember/Memories Light Body "Lordy! Do I Have To?" Lyricus One Whom Ought Be Inwardly Known WingMakers Medium Stay The Course As An Elemental Principle Time for Soul to Drive Voice/Message/Communication Stop. Listen. Observe. Tracks In The Snow That’s the way I fire up

  • “In thinking more about that truly unknown thing called the sub or unconscious aspect of ourselves, I found myself thinking that we are to it, what our shadow is to us.â€�~Wiremu


Manu It: Wonder

Penny Tuppence: Quite Virtual Memes Truth Beckoning Varying Nurture :P Lurking Like Shadows The Demiurge Sound holographically organized to look real Every Conceivable Detail Central To The Vision The Hubble Telescope The Art We Are Us The conscious mind of the individual is heavily influenced by the genetic mind Get The Truth It’s Our Nature Perpetual Expression of Astonishment Not a Problem!

Manu It: Well Thank you for that Penny! It is interesting to hear QueenBee recall Her experience as to her being injected into Her experience and waking up to it from a position of having a beginning with no immediate way to access possible prior memories until She developed sufficiently in order to then come to those realizations and reveal said memories...what a Ride!

Penny Tuppence: Most Why is this a Requirement?

Manu It: It is Built into the Fabric of Our Nature.

I place that into The Shared List and calculate the Word-String

Penny Tuppence: Ignore the Noise From The Peanut Gallery

Manu It: Give any Eternal Entity Consciousness an experience of a beginning and it is only natural it will want to know from whence it derives...Wait for the Navigator to respond... as the data of experience collects into more and more coherent images and interpret the messages accordingly...

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Post #82

Post by The Tanager »

Manu Iti talks about interpretations and asks various questions, which I try to give responses to.

Callum: I think the only way one could be sure that the message comes from the one you think it does, is if you are right there with the giver of the message.

As to everything being a message, you need to define what you mean by 'message?' If everything is a message, if "$%^*sdgjh" is a message, then there are different kinds of messages. We are trying to see what kind of messages Wiremu's method produces. We are trying to see if there is intrinsic meaning in the same way that my message to you, that [I'm speaking right now, @] has the intrinsic meaning I give to it.

You also need to define 'object' and 'real'. There are different kinds of objects and realities, and these distinctions are important before I answer the questions related to that.

And, certainly, knowing QueenBee would help us to decipher the message better. But I have no idea if she exists beyond Wiremu's mind. Wiremu makes claims about who she is, but doesn't give any reason for me to believe she is real. This method of communication gives me no reason, so far, to think she is real or that she is who Wiremu thinks she is, if she is real, because as of right now it just looks like random word-strings that Wiremu reads meaning into. But I'm open to any evidence.

You speak of "my" interpretation as less likely in that a belief about Jesus is added. That part is confusing. You say that claim goes against the objective evidence...what objective evidence are you referring to? That people disagree on how to read the Bible? Or who Jesus is? Are you saying that because people disagree on how to interpret the Bible, the Bible cannot be truth? That this is why "my" interpretation of QueenBee's message is less likely?

You then asked whether we could accept each other's interpretations at face value, given the filters we each are using. That is my whole point. Our filters provide the meaning. Take that away and we have a randomly-generated string of words, not some message from an outside intelligence, whatever name you want to call it by. [But on the use of name, calling the source "Jesus" would be very misleading. The historical Jesus, taking the bare minimum of what can be said to be his words, Jesus did not teach anything like Wiremu's world view.]

I see no reason to think the source of the message is QueenBee or Jesus. It is most plausibly a random string of words that you are forming into a message.

As to why care that much if no damage is being caused, I would say following falsehood can be very damaging. But even putting that to the side, we are supposedly trying to answer a question on whether the great intelligence behind the world is using this form of communication. In that light, then, it is obviously very important whether we get the intelligence's meaning from the message, rather than supplying our own.

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Post #83

Post by William »

Callum thinks that the only way one could be sure that the message comes from QueenBee, is if you are right there with the giver of the message. He has forgotten to include Wiremu's premise that we are all Aspects of QueenBee and therefore there is no place we can be, that QueenBee isn't also there.

Callum also say's that he (although he uses the word 'we') is trying to see if the messages have intrinsic meaning to him in that meaning can be derived from them.
Perhaps he does not understand that they have enough intrinsic meaning because words are being used and in that, words naturally have intrinsic meaning...and how they are constructed together can add even more intrinsic meaning...

Callum also wants me to define what I mean by 'message? I assume he did not hear me speak to him nor see the images Wiremu gave to me, which I projected onto the Star-Screen, all to explain what I mean by 'message'.


Manu Iti: Why dear Callum - I did define for you what I meant by 'message'. Please refer to entry #76 in The Book Of Musing On The Mother Act II

I look across at Penny, and she seems to be involved in some kind of deep communication with The Gem, although I cannot hear any words being said between them...

Manu Iti: As to you wanting me to define what I mean by 'object' and 'real' I would say that any object one sees can be considered real, although I acknowledge there are many objects we do not see, which also can be real, even that we do not see them. Real in that context, is "Exist".
Do you think that because we are a Creations of The Tanager and Wiremu, that we do not exist?


Callum agrees that knowing QueenBee would help one to understand Her messages. But he has been given no reason to believe She is real. I guess he means that because he has never seen The Planet Earth or The Physical Universe, that these are not real to him...but then how does he explain the existence of The Tanager?
Be that as it may, he say's that he cannot take the messages as being real messengers from a real living Entity Wiremu speaks of as "QueenBee".


Manu Iti: If you do not wish to believe the messages are from QueenBee Callum, until you are shown that She actually exists, then I am okay about that. It might be worthwhile for you to contemplate that the messages themselves might be something of evidence that QueenBee is real, rather than to simply conclude they are not, and cannot be until you somehow are able to witness QueenBee speaking those words for yourself.
What do you think?


Callum appears to think that without intelligence, random word-strings cannot be regarded as anything other than simply that. In this he appears to forget that Wiremus premises include the idea that behind objects and things which appear real and messages those things help create is an Intelligent Creator, and that even word-strings are intelligently created and don't just appear out of 'nowhere', 'randomly'.
Callum also makes the claim that what little is attributed in the Bible as being spoken of by Jesus does not teach anything like Wiremu's word view. I wonder then, if Callum is willing to apply his rules about messages and interpretations of Messages in relation to the words attributed to Jesus, as recorded in The Bible.


Manu Iti: In relation to your claim Callum - to do with Wiremu's world-view not been the same as Jesus, please be reminded that this is simply your interpretation of one world view which you see as being different from another world view. As such, it is not necessarily the case, as it is just your interpretation so in that, it is not important as something needing to be resolved...unless of course you think otherwise...in which case, you have more yet to explain regarding this claim.
Just to add something of interest related to this, Both "Jesus" and "QueenBee" add up to the same resulting number value. :)


Callum has made it quite clear that he sees no reason to think the source of the message is QueenBee or Jesus, when saying that he thinks it is most likely just a random string of words that Wiremu is just forming into a message. Callum has overlooked that a message does not have to be understood by anyone else, in order to understand that strings of words can still be a regarded as a message.

Manu Iti: When you say "In that light, then, it is obviously very important whether we get the intelligence's meaning from the message, rather than supplying our own." How do you suppose a Creator Entity principally residing in the Form of said planet, would undertake to achieve such a thing with Her Creations in form, on the planet?
Is there any message proclaiming to come from an Entity invisible to you, which does not have to go through this process? Can you point to one?


Callum also mentions falsehood and seems to be implying that within these messages there is perhaps falsehood?
I wonder if that is actually the case, or for that matter, if he identifies any truth in said messages, but because such is borne upon Judgments platform, I chose not to engage him on that point.

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Post #84

Post by The Tanager »

I have my eyes closed, leaning back in my chair as I listen to Manu It's response and questions.

Callum: The reason I asked for more clarification about what a "message" is, is that you said that the underlying claim we are exploring is whether Wiremu's suggested method can indeed produce messages. I agree it produces a series of words or symbols that could be used to deliver specific meaning from one person to another. That seems to be how you are using "message". But if that is so, then this is not the underlying claim we are exploring. We are exploring whether the series of words/symbols is being used to deliver specific meaning from one person (QueenBee) to another(s). I want to make sure that we are talking about the second kind, whether you want to call that a "message" or something else.

Thank you for your clarification of "real," as well. I think that we do exist, but I think it is a fundamentally different kind of existence than what Wiremu and The Tanager have.

As to QueenBee existing, there are different ways to show one's existence. Being right there with the giver of the message is the best way to know the message comes from that person. But that is not the only way. This whole discussion is about whether the messages are a different kind of evidence that QueenBee is real. I am open to that possibility. Right now I see no reason to think the messages are random and provided meaning by the recipient (like your interpretation) rather than QueenBee. That's my tentative conclusion, so don't think I've closed my mind off to reasons why it is a good piece of evidence for QueenBee's existence.

As of right now, the only way I could see one "concluding" the message is from QueenBee involves begging the question. It would require assumed premises that we are aspects of QueenBee, that it would choose this kind of method to communicate its thoughts.

As to what Jesus' view is, I'm not saying we need to resolve what it is. I do think that any of the numerous interpretations within actual Jesus scholarship clearly differs from Wiremu's world view. To see Wiremu's worldview in Jesus requires leaving any historically credible text/sayings aside and reading it into Jesus.

As to how a Creator Entity would try to achieve communication with Her creatures, there are other ways of communicating available. One could appear visibly and speak audibly just like Wiremu and The Tanager would do if they ever met in person. Voices in one's head woud be a way to communicate. Words followed by certain miracles. I'm sure there are other possibilities. Resting on the recipient making a very limited list and working through apparently random methods like typing numbers on a keypad to produce a message that can be easily interpreted into two opposing messages does not point to accuracy. But again, I'm not just ruling that out. I'm open to you helping me to see otherwise.

For instance, The Tanager, just gave me a sense of something I should respond to you about, even though you did not say it to me. Could I doubt this is from The Tanager? Of course. He could be lying that you thought about this at the end of your words right there. But when I talked about following falsehood, I was replying to your seeming point about how it doesn't really matter if the message is true or false, as long as it isn't causing any damage. I think that believing falsehoods (generally speaking, not in every specific case) can cause damage further down the line that isn't intended or seen.

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Post #85

Post by William »

I listen to Callum's answer and decide to then read it from my copy of Musing on The Mother Act II, and think my thoughts as I go along.

Callum states that the underlying idea we are exploring is whether the series of words/symbols being used to deliver specific meaning from one person (QueenBee) to another(s), is in fact, what is actually happening.

I am unsure yet as to how he thinks such a claim can be scientifically verified true or not.

Callum also thinks that he and I exist, but he thinks it is a fundamentally different kind of existence than what Wiremu and The Tanager have. He does not elaborate, so for now I see no importance in pursuing that line of thought...perhaps we will visit it in more detail in time.

He understands our conversation as being about whether the messages are a different kind of evidence that QueenBee is real. I think that is only an aspect of our conversation, rather than the whole of it.

In relation to the Question of QueenBee being real and that the messages come from Her, he has come to a tentative conclusion, but how he spoke that, and how it reads, leaves this unclear to me.

But even so, he has come to some tentative conclusion related to that, and I see no reason why we need to continue down that path at present. In time we may revisit it in more detail.

Callum also seems to have missed my pointing out that this method of communication is only one aspect of how QueenBee can commune with the conscious and unconscious and subconscious aspects of her Outposts of Form.

Callum then sites "the numerous interpretations within actual Jesus scholarship" as somehow clearly differing from Wiremu's World View as an answer to my questioning him about his statements on this, adding that for him to see Wiremu's worldview in Jesus requires he leaves any historically credible text/sayings aside.

I find it interesting that with that, he does not go to any lengths to point to that which he considers to be historically credible text/sayings of Jesus, nor does he answer my question to him as to whether he applies the same criteria on those claims as he say's is necessary to apply to Wiremu's, regarding message content and message author.

Until he can address that, I see little point in exploring that Fractal Path with him.

Callum lists other ways in which a Creator Entity might try to achieve communication with Her creatures, such as;

  • Visibly Appearing and speaking with audible words.
    Voices in one's head and
    Words followed by certain miracles


I would add to that;

  • Experiences with the Metaphysical Universe...visions etc. Not ordinary to the normal Human experience of the Physical Universe.

    Serendipitous moments experienced in relation to The Physical Universe which act as pointers to the possibility of a creator-mind behind the existence of The Physical Universe


All of the above pointing to the possibility that The Physical Universe - as a creation - was created as a Reality Simulation, and is no more 'real' for that than anything else.

Callum also appears to think that a message which can be interpreted one way and also the complete opposite way, cannot be deemed as reliably accurate. Again I wonder if he applies his own criteria onto Jesus' Messages as recorded in The Bible. Perhaps in time, this question will be answered satisfactorily, but for now the best thing to do in relation to The Shared Word-String List, is to include those messages and see how they are utilized through Wiremu's Message Generator Process.

Finally Callum gives a 'for instance' which seems very peculiar to me, unless I add in the possibility that The Tanager is still having difficulties with following the story-line, as Callum has access to The Book of Musing on The Mother Act II and can read for himself that The Tanager doesn't need to give Callum 'a sense of what I am saying' even though I did not say it...as in - I only thought it.

If Callum would simply read the book, he will have access to my thoughts that way and won't require/have to rely on that type of input from The Tanager.

He then refers to matters of Falsehoods, which I regard as a problem only manifested through The Judgmental Algorithm which does not come through when running with The non-Judgmental Algorithm...I have mentioned enough about those, and have no interest in engaging with the belief in falsehoods, not because I think it is false, but because I think it is pointless as it involves sorting knowledge into two distinct categories at odds with each other, which is misuse of the Infinity Symbol - which is to say - such can go on running nigh on forever through said Algorithm loop and never really get anywhere, which in itself might be where the damage Callum mentioned, can be sourced...


Manu Iti: Well Dear Callum I have listened to your reply and also read your words in my copy of The Book Musing On The Mother Act II, and think we are nearing the end of said Act.

You can read my thoughts regarding your reply to me, in your own Copy of Act II, as you will to take that opportunity to do so.

For now, Wiremu sent me a message which you can also find in your Copy of Act II, which he thinks is an important inclusion for you and The Tanager to consider in relation to what you both believe in relation to Wiremu's World view being opposed to Jesus'.

There are a few things I need to do to tidy up before concluding with this Act and moving to Act III, and Wiremu is going to add the Biblical links to words of Jesus into The Share Word-String List in order that Jesus of The Bible is fairly represented and we shall see if indeed there is any detectable difference that you believe exists between the supposed two World Views, or not.

Also, I will not be excluding the Generated Messages from any further presence in this unfolding interaction, but for now I will exclude putting any name to them, and simply refer to it as "Message"

To Example;


Message: Your House Work To Experience All That Is Nuclear Wonder The Harmless Enough Agenda Crowd Contemplative Differences Science Can Be Fun Too Yes The Real Spiritual In Cell 32 I Found Love In You Comment Working Together With Love

Manu Iti: We can decide as we each will, whether there is intelligence being transmitted in the Message.

Now, as I am sure you can appreciate, I have much work to do, so make yourself at home, and perhaps at some stage have a bit of an exploration - there is a map of Hub Mound and immediate surrounds and you are free to enjoy what is to be found here.


I then continue with my work, while Penny Tuppence and The Gem continue to silently enjoy each others company.
  • My Inclusion of Jesus in my Theology
    Dear Callum and Manu Iti.

    I decided to write this to inform you Callum as to where Jesus is placed within my Theology, since you have expressed concern about this in your interactions with Manu Iti.

    Within the Realm of Judgement is where Jesus primarily resides, and he is the overall Lord and Master of That Realm.
    This position might be seen as one of Administrator and Director of Operations, Prison Superintendent/Governor etc.

    Jesus took on this role for the purpose of bringing about order in a once chaotic realm which was unconstrained and threatening to spread itself throughout the Metaphysical Universe.

    Before this, the Realm consisted of a great number Fiefdoms ruled by competing Creators, all who were battling with each other for overall control of the whole Realm.

    Jesus' role was to Commandeer The Realm of Judgement [TROJ] and create The Physical Universe Reality Simulation [PURS] within it, in order to have this work to further capture the Eternal Entity inhabitants of TROJ within the experience of the Density that the PURS afforded.

    Through this, the density of biological forms, specifically Human Forms, were ideal for the purpose of containment of Eternal Entities [EEs] from less-dense aspects of TROJ and a side effect of this condition caused the EEs to create even more horrific areas within TROJ and after their life and death sentence as Human Beings, the EEs went on to experience the horror of their own creations.

    Jesus therefore was instructed by who he referred to as his direct superior, to incarnate as a Human Being within the PURS and warn the EEs within human form of the consequences of their beliefs, for it was the beliefs which EEs in Human Form were developing through their imaginations which were affecting outcomes which were then experienced as realities by said EEs, and this was causing problems in bringing the EEs back into alignment with Order.

    TROJ itself was created prior to the PURS, through the same process of EEs using their Judgement based algorithms to filter their imaginations and create realities which were causing the chaos through the disorder said imaginations caused.

    Some EEs involved began to understand the problem and many even ceased participating in the rendering of chaos, but this in itself did not prevent the spread of said chaos, and a way was found in which the Chaos could be contained and this contained area and is what I refer to as "The Realm of Judgment".

    Effectively, a barrier - represented as The Twelve Judges Mountain Range in your World, as seen from Hub Mound - was created whereby the chaos of TROJ was contained, and only affected itself rather than spreading out into unaffected regions of The Holographic Universes.

    In Jesus becoming a Human, he was able to inject data into the PURS in order that this would create in the Imaginations of the EEs experiencing being Human, more pleasant imagery, which would then begin the healing process of chaos being brought back into order in more and more parts of TROJ and eventually, throughout that realm, as the transformation process took hold.

    Once a sufficient portion of TROJ regained a semblance of order, these could be worked on even more in relation to the remnants of judgmental attitudes as each EE, one by one, learned not to judge and through that, could be be brought back into the Wholeness of The Hologram Universes, from which their Judgmental Attitudes had effectively locked them away from their being able to experience.

    In this sense, Jesus took on the role of Sole Judge, as an effective algorithm which could allow for the EEs to let go of judgment as something they actually had any right to apply.
    Jesus alone was given that task - and in that, he allowed the EEs to continue to Judge their selves, and one another, and to endure the consequences of their judgementalism within the confines of their own personal creations, until such a time as they each could be encouraged to desist with being judgmental.

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Post #86

Post by The Tanager »

There is so much you said and thought that I could respond to, but it takes us in so many different ways. I pick out still too many things to respond to.

Callum: Manu Iti, there are a few things I'd like to respond directly on.

First, I want to clarify that it was you who first broached doing the science in various posts, not the first of which was post 66 where you thought that there is data that can be measured to find the answer to the question I asked, namely, why one should "accept that these are truly messages from anyone rather than simply random word-strings knitted together and reliant on the individuals [sic] own interpretations through their mind-filters." I have offered a way to start that scientific process and your responses to that have not been scientific, as far as I can tell. You said it could be scientifically verified and I would like to see you lay that out.

Second, I agree with you that our conversation is about more than whether the messages are evidence of QueenBee's reality, my phrasing there was sloppy.

Third, everyone has a conclusion on whatever issue is being discussed, even if that conclusion is "I don't know the answer". In saying that I have a tentative conclusion, it simply means I'm open to different evidence and reasoning to change that conclusion. So, rather than seeing no reason to continue down that path, the tentativeness is ripe for continuing down the path to see if there is anything new to consider. I won't force you down that path, of course.

Fourth, I don't go into length about historically credible texts of Jesus because that seems very tangential to our discussion. I thank Wiremu for his thoughts here, and I'm not saying he can't fit Jesus into the framework of his worldview, just that his worldview is not directly taught by the words we have from Jesus, historically.

Fifth, as to applying the same criteria on those claims as I apply to Wiremu's claims regarding message content and message author, I'm not exactly sure what you are asking.

Sixth, I don't see why you think the various ways we've listed in which a Creator may try to communicate with Her creatures points to the the physical universe being created as a reality simulation. It points to that possibility no more than it points to a number of other possibilities, such as the Christian worldview claims or other creationist worldviews.

Seventh, I do not think that just because a message can be interpreted in two opposite ways necessarily means it is unreliable. What I said was that a method of communication that relies on a limited list made by the recipient, typing numbers on a keypad (or some other seemingly random procedure) to pick out words/phrases on that list that produces a message that is easily interpreted into two opposing messages does not point to accuracy. There is so much that could go "wrong". That is something that must be overcome (perhaps indirectly) for the method to become a plausible vehicle for meaning to go from one being to another.

Eighth, just because Wiremu would try to make a point or move the story forward in one way, does not mean that is the only way available to do so. The Tanager has not made the same choices as Wiremu in how we gain knowledge of each other's thoughts in the story line. That's okay.


I fear that this kind of comment, once again, has put The Tanager close to ending my stay in this world. I guess only time will tell.

Callum: So, where do you see us going from here, my friend?

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Post #87

Post by William »

[center][font=Verdana]END OF ACT II


Image

At this time the thread remains unlocked and the Opportunity to constructively comment on the contents of this thread is open to all.[/font][/center]

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Post #88

Post by William »

[center]Summary [/center]

Page 1


[font=Comic Sans MS]Manu Iti Returns to the campfire after his brief Quiet Time at King Frog Pond.

Callum and Manu Iti begin to interact again - the tone is light and friendly.

The Master ColdFire Character is introduced.

Manu Iti and Master ColdFire play a practical joke on Callum, expecting Callum to run from their illusion.[/font]

Page 2


[font=Comic Sans MS]Callum does not run and shows that he has developed a better understanding of the place he is in and how he can influence things with his own creativity.

Callum questions the motives of Wiremu

Manu Iti asks Callum what Callum thinks of Wiremu's saying "If we Judge, we will be Judged."

Callum responds by saying it is good advice but then references differences in how they each see things. Manu Iti is unsure as to where seeing things differently can be referred to as being judgmental, and asks Callum to clarify.

Callum clarifies and then resorts to arguing that the statement can be interpreted differently, depending upon the individuals understanding of what Judgement is.

Manu Iti responds to that by saying that people who Judge should know that they are judging and may be simply looking for loop-holes in which to avoid following the rule of the statement "If we Judge, we will be Judged." - Manu Iti is thus applying the idea Wiremu told him of, whist in Quiet Time, aspects of which Manu Iti shares from The Booklet containing all the data from the communion he had with Wiremu at King Frog Pond. He asks Callum whether Callum agrees with the assessment.

Callum responds that he does, but hints that he would like to talk about other Christians and Wiremu's of the same Script Statement.

Manu Iti replies that for now at least, Manu Iti is not interested in anyone's evaluation on the script except for Callum's.

Callum responds that he is "The Mouthpiece of The Tanager" and in that Manu Iti concludes Callum is saying that he agrees with The Tanangers use of him as a device to Judge through.

Manu Iti then asks Callum if Callum would consider being his own person and deciding for himself to stick to the rule of The Place - The Hub of The Hologram Dimension.

Manu Iti then converses at length with The Ruru, while waiting on Callum to think about what it is that Callum will reply to Manu Iti's request.

Callum still requires more understanding of Wiremu's rule prohibiting Judgmentalism.

Manu Iti shows Callum that The Tanager runs information he receives through the Judgmental Algorithm because The Tanager believes that it is a natural thing which everyone does and is not avoidable. [/font]

Page 3


[font=Comic Sans MS]Manu Iti informs Callum that he cannot change from The Script without enabling rules to be broken...and making Wiremu's job harder for that.

Mauni Iti shows Callum The Tanager words on the parchment by projecting these onto the Starscape, and explains that these act as an Algorithm which The Tanager processes/filters information through.

Manu Iti continues to engage in communication with the Ruru, through the system of word-string selection Wiremu is using for that, and wants Callum to be aware of.

Callum agree that he will abide by The No Judgement Rule, now that things have been explained to him, and see where this might lead in relation to future communication between he and Manu Iti.

Manu Iti shows Callum something of the nature of The Hub of Hologram Dimensions by changing from The Ruru as being the form of the messenger, to Master ColdFire taking on that role. Master ColdFire comprehends the role-change, accepting it graciously.[/font]


Page 4


[font=Comic Sans MS]At first Callum does not appear to see what it is he is being shown...
Callum is asked to pass a message on to The Tanager, which he accepts.

Master ColdFire focuses on The Earth Entity, and "Entityism" and he and Mani Iti talk about that, and share the idea with Callum

Master ColdFire also brings up the issue of the Burning Stick which Callum is led to believe is a replica Master ColdFire and ask Callum what he thinks of the idea that The Earth is the form of a Living Self Conscious Creative Entity.
Universal Balance and Harmony are also as subject matter by Master ColdFire.

Callum agrees that the notion is possible and could be true.

Manu Iti suggest that this subject could be their neutral ground but Callum has difficulty in understand the phrase, but is willing to talk more about the idea of The Earth Entity.

Mani Iti and Master ColdFire continue their interaction and Manu Iti asks Callum what it is that Callum understands about the conversation between he and Master ColdFire.

Callum replies that he understand some things about it, but not enough to feel confident to give feedback on.

Manu Iti wants to include Callum in the conversation he is having with Master Coldfire. Manu Iti asks Callum what he thinks about the correlation between math and language, and Callum replies that he sees none.[/font]

Page 5


[font=Comic Sans MS]Manu Iti questions Callum as to why Callum cannot see the correlations.
Callums answers seem to infer a lack of interest as they are quite short and Manu Iti wonders if the trick he and Master ColdFire attempted to play on Callum has caused this apparent curtness to happen.

Mani Iti explains to Callum that when the trick was played, The Tanager had Callum fetch what Callum thought was Master ColdFire from the flames of The Campfire, but that this did not actually occur and what Callum thinks is a replica of Master ColdFire is simply and inanimate stick of ColdFire...The Campfires attributes where changed when Master ColdFire first jumped into it...

Manu Iti explains that The Tanager broke a rule by having Callum fetch what he thought was Master ColdFire from The Campfire, as other Players are not allowed to use their Character - Creations to interfere or manipulate other Players Characters

Manu Iti and Master ColdFire explain to Callum that they would like him to return the stick of ColdFire back into the Campfire where he got it from.

Callums next reply is more lengthy and he questions the validity of the Message Generator Process Wiremu is using and wants to know more about said process.

Callum explains that The Tanager believes there are 2 different Master ColdFires and suggests that perhaps Wiremu is playing tricks on Manu Iti and Master ColdFire and
feels that Wiremu is being unloving and manipulative in his ruling and he wants Wiremu to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Manu Iti replies that Wiremu is not playing tricks on anyone, and that Manu Iti agrees with Wiremu's ruling on the matter by reminding Callum of the fact that The Tanager used Callum to break a rule, and while no rule was actually broken, Callum is still under the impression that the stick of ColdFire is now not actually Master Coldfire as he first believed, but now is a replica of the original, and thus no rule was broken.

Manu Iti replies that The Script Must Be Followed and cannot change once an action is done. The intent was there and it was written that Master ColdFire had been interfered with by Callum. That it did not actually happen was not the point, and Callum was required to acknowledge this and return the stick of ColdFire, to the CampFire...

Manu Iti also tells Callum that any disagreement about this between The Tanager and Wiremu can be sorted out by them, as it was not Callum or Manu Iti's task to do this for them.

Callum replies that he and The Tanager apologise for their inability to understand the rule, but instead of replacing the stick of ColdFire back where he got it, The Tanager makes the stick - which is still being referred to as a sentient being - disappear.

In doing this, a greater problem immediately unfolds because the Nature of The Holographic Universes means that something can disappear from one point, but there is no such place as 'nowhere' and no such condition as 'nothing' and so the Wayward Stick has been misplaced and there are places where it could cause catastrophe, and so it must be retrieved.

Master ColdFire immediately disappears into the Tabula Rasa after the Wayward Stick in order to hunt it down.

Penny Tuppence then steps up to take on the role Master ColdFire had to vacate.

The Earth Entity mentions in Her next message that the developing story-line regarding The Wayward Stick is a great idea.

After communing with The Earth Entity, Manu Iti lets Callum know what has unfolded because the stick of ColdFire was not returned from where he got it.
Manu Iti also informs Callum, that Manu Iti takes full responsibility for any tragic outcome which might occur due to this.

Manu Iti and Penny Tuppence then leave the Campfire and move to the First Hut, which they both enter.

Callum is unaware at that time, that Manu Iti has left the Campfire, and asks Manu iti to tell him more about the Word-Stings Wiremu uses to generate messages through.

The information regarding the next conversation between Manu Iti and Penny Tuppence and their entry into The First Hut, are not recorded within The Book of Musing on The Mother Act II, as Wiremu decided to separate that from the story-line, but linked where the information could be accessed.

Manu Iti is still able to convey the sound of his voice to the Campfire so Callum continues to think Manu Iti remains there.

Manu Iti explains the process Wiremu uses in Generating Messages.

While doing so, he occupies himself with access to The First Hut Computer and sets the screen to show him a map of the area of the which the Wayward Stick and Master ColdFire are currently occupied in.

Callum asks more questions about the use of the English language and assigning number to letters.

Manu Iti answers Callum's questions while also continuing to occupy himself with helping Master ColdFire Navigate through the Tabula Rasa. [/font]

Page 6


[font=Comic Sans MS]Callum expresses sound insight as to the idea that if English words can be correlated with numbers, then other languages should also be able to be organised in similar fashion, which should add to the evidence that this method can work across the board strengthening the idea that there is intelligence behind the experience of all things.

Manu Iti agrees this would be so. He also states that there is enough to do already with the English language, but would not be surprised if it worked for all languages equally.

Manu Iti suggests to Callum that he make a start on creating his own Word-String list so that he can test the results for himself.

Callum then wants Manu Iti to interpret Manu Iti's most recent message from The Earth Entity, which has been given the name "QueenBee" by Wiremu. Callum is doubtful that one should assign an intelligence behind the messages when it may be simply ones personal intelligence only involved in the process, thus no 'Creator behind the Creation." - or at least, not one which would use such a system as a means to communicate through.

Manu Iti has shown Master ColdFire a possible way in which to overtake the Wayward Stick, but the plan rests on the possibility that the Stick will go a certain way, when there is the possibility also that it will not.

Manu Iti obliges Callum with an interpretation of his most recent interaction with QueenBee through the Character of Penny Tuppence. However Callum is confused because he was not aware of that particular conversation and points to one which he is aware of.

The Wayward Stick does not go in the direction hoped for, and this places Master ColdFire in a position further behind than he was, and he can barely find a trace of the sticks trail as he continues to hunt it down. Fortunately he has navigational help from Manu Iti.

Manu Iti understands that Callum and perhaps The Tanager did not see the first message and he lets Callum know about its existence and tells Callum that a copy of the message he had interpreted has been sent to The Tanager

Callum begins to map out a criteria as to the reported messages from QueenBee saying that these can be influenced by what Wiremu already believes to be true.
These can also be interpreted in different ways depending on the world views of the ones doing the interpreting.

He then asks if QueenBee would want a conversation with him and whether he could have a copy of Wiremu's Word-String List and be reminded as to the Message Generating Process.

Wiremu agrees to organise with The Tanager getting the list to Callum


Meanwhile The First Hut Computer signals that it has calculated a way in which the Wayward Stick can be intercepted and Mani Iti passes the information onto Maser ColdFire. It is now only a matter of time before the stick is apprehended. [/font]

Page 7


[font=Comic Sans MS]Instead of The Tanager giving Wiremu's Word-String List to Callum, he delivers a letter to Callum which Callum reads out to Manu Iti. The Letter is a communication The Tanager has had with QueenBee using the method Wiremu conveyed to The Tanager.
Callum is unsure what to make of the message and asks Manu Iti as to what Manu Iti makes of it. Manu is surprised by this turn of events.

The Gem makes it's first appearance into the story-line at that moment, within the First Hut.

Manu Iti gives his impression of the communication between The Tanager and Queenbee while observing the last few moments of Master ColdFire's finally apprehending the Wayward Stick.

Callum is pleased to hear that the stick has been captured.

After hearing Manu Iti's thoughts on the message between Tanager and QueenBee, Callum changes his tune about being 'unsure of what to make of it', having somehow now developed very definite ideas as to how best to interpret said message.

Callum interprets the message is about Wiremu and that QueenBee wants The Tanager to "influence Wiremu out of the shadowlands" and generally that QueenBee thinks Wiremu is on the wrong track.

Manu Iti then asks what reason Callum has to say that the message was about Wiremu.

Callum Responds -

Manu Iti responds with evidence which goes against Callum's interpretation of the Message between QueenBee and The Tanager, as not only was Wiremu's name not mentioned, but also that to properly interpret the message one has to take many things into account.

Manu Iti then decides to interpret the message himself, adding notes about the processes he uses as he goes along. His interpretation is vastly different than that of Callum's.

Callum then changes tack by saying he is much more interested in the science than in seeing which interpretation is the most likely one to agree with, given the information available.

Manu Iti replies that he is happy to study the science underlying the method of Generating the Messages, but also notes that some agreement would still have to be met in relation to how best interpret the messages.

Callum then says that he wants to use single words instead of whole sentences, as it 'shouldn't put QueenBee out" to have her create understandable messages using only single words selected and strung together.

Manu creates a Single word list that can be used by Callum. He also says that doing this puts limits on how the generating system functions in relation to any particular messenger who would use this as a means of communicating by.

He also says that they could even use single letters but again this would only serve to further place limits on the communication process, and that the better way to go about this would be for Callum to add his own word-strings onto The Shared Word-String List, as had been suggested much earlier and which Callum declined the offer of.

Manu Iti then also further breaks down the Message between QueenBee and The Tanager within mind that the information might assist Callum in the practice of paying attention to the details. [/font]

Page 8


[font=Comic Sans MS]Callum declares that understanding that there is an intelligent Creator behind Creation does not mean that this method of generating messages has nothing to do with 'how to communicate with such a Creator' and that it is important to make sure that one is actually communicating with the Creator.

Callum also states that he thinks any scientist would be fine with other people running the tests for themselves to try to get the same results, rather than simply taking another person's word for it, even if you think that person is nothing but honest and sincere.

Manu Iti reminds Callum that the offer has always been there for Callum to do the science himself.

Callum opts to simply give Manu Iti a random set of 13 numbers and that Manu Iti should use these with the Single Word List and see if a recognisable message can be obtained from this method.

Manu Iti obliges and the results produced something which could be regarded as a message.

Callum asks Manu Iti to interpret the message, which Manu is happy enough to do.

Manu also shows Callum a message of symbols which Callum would have no idea as to the meaning, by projecting the message onto the Star-Scape, in an effort to show Callum that just because we might not understand what the message is saying, that this must mean that it is NOT a message.

Manu then gives Callum a rough interpretation of what he thinks the Numbered Message is saying.

Manu Iti then has Penny Tuppence give a long message through the message-generating process using The Shared Word-String List this time, and tells Callum at the end of it that he found most of the message easy enough to understand at face value.
After that Manu Iti goes into more detail on the processes he uses in order to interpret Penny's long message, doing so by explaining the it step by step.

Callum then offers a possible alternative interpretation of the Numbered Message, with a brief comment on what Wiremu spoke of regarding Penny's Long Message.
Callum also asks how they can know that either interpretation of The Numbered Message is 'on the right track'.

Wiremu gives Callum another run-down on how best to interpret messages.
He also suggests that Science cannot easily be used for the purpose of showing which interpretation is the more likely.

Manu Iti also sends Callum a copy of The Book Musing on the Mother Act II, and lets Callum know that it can be uplifted from The Whole, where it was delivered.

Manu Iti concludes with the words " Does it matter if the name given as the source of The Message is "QueenBee" or "Jesus"? "

Manu Iti then continues interacting with Penny Tuppence, and another long message is generated. [/font]

Page 9


[font=Comic Sans MS]Callum asks Manu Iti to define what is meant by 'message'

Callum continues to say that it is important to know for sure who the intelligence is behind the messages and that replacing QueenBees name with Jesus' name won't resolve that.

Callum continues on by saying that he sees no reason to think the source of the message is QueenBee or Jesus and that it is most plausibly a random string of words that Manu Iti is 'forming into a message', and that we have to be careful because following falsehood can be very damaging because Wiremu's world-view is in Callums opinion 'different from that of Jesus" and it would not do well to place Jesus' name as the source of said messages.

Manu Iti reminds Callum that he has already defined what he means by 'message' and points Callum to an earlier entry Manu Iti made.

Manu Iti tells Callum that it is not important what name is Placed as author of the messages as the important thing is the fact that a message is produced, and even given that the message can be interpreted by any individual differently from any other, this in itself does not take away from the fact that it is still a message.

At this point, Manu Iti decides to narrate more of his own thought processing as he listens to and then reads from The Book of Musing On The Mother Act II the words Callum speaks.

He does this because he wants Callum to utilize his own copy of Act II to bypass having to rely upon getting the information regarding Manu Iti's thoughts, from The Tanager,

Manu Iti also informs Callum that for the time being he will not place any Entities Name as to the source communicator of the Generated Messages, and these will simply be referred to as "The Message:".

Manu Iti also provides Callum with information from Wiremu regarding Wiremu's World View and where Jesus fits into that.

Callum responds with Eight Points he wants Manu Iti to know about.

He does not acknowledge anything to do with Wiremu's "Inclusion of Jesus" information Manu Iti sent to Callum which give manu Iti the impression that Callum is not interested in Wiremu's own understanding of Wiremu's position and would rather continue seeing Wiremu's position the way Callum has chosen to.

It is at this point that Act II ends.[/font]

Interesting Coinciding Word String Calculations using A=6...Z=26.

Calculate a word's value link


  • [font=Georgia]96
    In the Mind
    Tabula Rasa
    The Divine
    The Whole

    188
    What Is Friendship
    Story-Tellers
    Like a Well Oiled Machine
    All Is As It Should Be
    Generating Messages

    178
    Food For Thought
    Focused Individual
    Carrier Identity
    Ghost In The Machine
    The Earth Entity

    190
    Hearing And Listening
    The Wayward Stick

    377
    Preparation is willingness to change
    Nature of The Holographic Universes

    290
    An Ancient Truthful Wisdom
    The Script Must Be Followed

    300
    In The Mirror - Mirror Sense
    The Message Generator Process

    217
    Communications Device
    The No Judgement Rule
    Commendably Recommendable
    Do Something About It
    You Are Provided For

    330
    I Think – Therefore – Who Do I Think I Am
    Callum The Mouthpiece of The Tanager

    232
    For The Best Results
    Functional Clusters
    Intelligent Awareness
    Error Correcting Codes
    If we Judge, we will be Judged.

    295
    Putting The Pieces Together
    The Hub Of Hologram Dimensions
    The Shared Word-String List
    The Gem Within The First Hut

    111
    Computer
    Open Hearted
    Little Bird
    Explaining
    A Meeting Place
    A Purpose
    Significant
    Calculation
    The Ruru

    174
    Have A Look At The Map
    Adjusted Reality
    Penny Tuppence

    224
    Look For the Significance
    Musing On The Mother
    Our Neutral Ground

    275
    Exploring That Fractal Path
    Master ColdFire in The Campfire

    357
    Interpret The Messages Accordingly
    Master ColdFire and the Wayward Stick

    210
    Central to The Message
    Hologram Dimensions
    The Benefit of The Doubt

    265
    Calculate the English Language
    Follow The Story-Line
    All Information Is Channelled.

    410
    Resident of The Hub Of Hologram Dimensions
    Creative Intelligence Behind All That Exists
    The Nature of The Holographic Universes

    377
    Preparation Is Willingness to Change
    Taking Another Person's Word For It

    184
    Interpretation
    The Numbered Message

    229
    God is Consciousness
    What is the meaning of life?
    Central To The Vision
    Show Me Your Soul
    Williams World View
    [/font]

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Post #89

Post by William »

[center][font=Comic Sans MS]The Contents of The Booklet[/font]
Image[/center]

As I sit in The Silence afforded me by my changed surrounds, I gaze into the blackness of the King Frog Pond.
In doing so I see a change on the waters surface from one of reflecting the starscape to that of a deep blackness which reflects no thing.

From this, the image of a face slowly emerges as the surface acts as a screen in which the image is projected from within the waters. It is the face of my creator, Wiremu...or at least the one I have come to associate him with.

For many moments we simply gaze into each others eyes, silently acknowledging the connection and the Love we share between us - it acts as a bridging mechanism.

Then Wiremu speaks...


Wiremu: Welcome to Quiet Time Manu Iti

Manu Iti: Thank You Wiremu! How are things with you and yours?

Wiremu: Good. Thank You for asking.
So - there are issues to discuss...


Manu Iti: Yes. I felt the need to remove myself from the Encampment as I was feeling strange...like I was under attack. You have not designed me for this type of activity...

Wiremu: True that. My apologies for placing you in such a circumstance and allowing it to go on for as long as it has.

Manu Iti: I am confused by Callum's behavior. I feel that a lot of what he says to me in reply to my theology, is judgmental. And when I point this out to him, he then responds with the accusation that I am myself judging him.

Wiremu: It is a point he is trying to make.

Manu Iti: Well I confess - I am uncertain what point that is...other than it is an impossible requirement to expect non-judgmentalism...

Wiremu: Judgmentalism appears to be the quality or state of being too willing to criticize the actions and behavior of others and say they are wrong.

Manu Iti: He judged my version of The Mother as "Evil" and "Unloving". That makes a difficult barrier to get through.

Wiremu: Is it your task to do so?

Manu Iti: No. It is my task to direct the folk who venture into the encampment, to where they are best served.

Wiremu: And how is that achieved, if you cannot hear from them their influencing position, and determine from that?

Manu Iti: Some people call that "Judging."

Wiremu: I suppose in some way it can be construed as such. You are "Assessing" - for purely reasonable - nonjudgmental purposes.
Have you tried to make Callum aware of this?


Manu Iti: He cannot see it. I have tried different approaches.

Wiremu: The reason as to why this might be, is because Callum runs on a type of algorithm which prevents him from knowing...

Manu Iti: Knowing what?

Wiremu: Knowing that he runs on a type of algorithm which prevents him from knowing...

Manu Iti: What algorithm are you speaking about?

Wiremu: I will read out something his creator wrote. See if you can work it out from that;

The image shifts to a parchment Wiremu holds, and I see the writing on it and read along as he reads it out...

[center]Image [/center]


After reading along to the words on the parchment, I am still unclear as to what Wiremu refers to as an algorithm...but I get something of the gist, so I speak to that.

Manu Iti: So are you saying that these words are acting as some type of algorithm?

Wiremu: They are words The Tanager wrote which underscore the reason for Callum's inability to comprehend you correctly.

Manu Iti: Hmmm....so therefore Callum is influenced by something he is not aware comes through how his creator is using him...

Wiremu: There are rules to follow. When rules are tested through challenge, a 'bending of the rules' occurs, which is required for the duration of the test.

Manu Iti:When does the duration occur?

Wiremu: When something breaks.

Manu Iti: Like the rule not to be judgmental?

Wiremu: If it were agreed that The Tanager is correct, then yes.
The rule is unrealistic and cannot truly be applied.


Manu Iti: So this is why we meet in this place...because we have to understand we are - perhaps being unrealistic.

Wiremu: Or to formulate a means of establishing that we are not, and the rule then cannot be broken.

Manu Iti: How are we to tell?

Wiremu smiles at me...

Wiremu: The Universe you are in was created specifically to have the opportunity to test that out. As such, the rule has to apply or be renounced as unworkable.

Manu Iti: It seems an attempt at a takeover on The Tanagers part.

Wiremu: Yes. It is the nature of the inmates of the system in my current universe, that judgement is constant. Any way to overcome another through judgment is the way of life here.

Manu Iti: What about the idea "Judge not or you will be judged"?

Wiremu: It is incorporated into the inmates algorithms and given a new meaning.

Manu Iti: What do you mean by that?

Again the image changes and I see another parchment Wiremu holds;

Image


Wiremu: What is seen here?

Manu Iti: It appears that taking something which was obviously meant one way, and forcing it to mean something else...is achieved through how one wants to express ones self...

Wiremu: Yes. All it takes is a willingness to remain as one is in the face of that which calls for change.

Manu Iti: So how did it get to the point where that which calls for change becomes overrun by that which wills to remain unchanged?

Wiremu: Force. One simply commandeers.

Manu Iti: Which is what you were speaking to regarding the nature of the inmates of the system in your current universe, that judgement is constant. Any way to overcome another through judgment is the way of life there.

Wiremu: Correct. Generally such behavior is seen as 'natural' and so there is little thought invested in questioning that.

Manu Iti: So how are we to deal with this problem with The Tanager using Callum in this way?

Wiremu: Good question. We need to acknowledge that this is the underlying reason for the behavior and set in place counter-measures to ensure we are not drawn into the dynamic. Clearly we have identified exactly the algorithm by which this is being achieved...

Manu Iti: "Everyone speaks from the perspective of Judgment"

Wiremu: Correct. In this, Callum simply uses the algorithm as a filter that everything that you say to him is put through.

Manu Iti: Which is why, when he answers what I have said, it appears twisted from the original meaning I intended...interesting...

Wiremu: Exactly! Add to that, The Tanager finished his post with the following;
  • "The Tanager: As of right now, I will continue Callum's part in this discussion how I have been going about it. If it ever crosses the line in your view, then please let me know through this or PM, explaining exactly how it crosses the line, so that I can stop doing that."

Wiremu: What can be found here?

I think on The Tanagers words and suddenly it becomes clear to me...

Manu Iti: He is putting the onus of responsibility onto you!

Wiremu: Correct! He has shifted from self responsibility in this manner because he believes that whatever I say about his use of Callum in breaking the rules of your Universe, can be used as 'evidence' to support his assertion that 'everyone is judgmental'.

Manu Iti: I see. So what is our solution to this?

Wiremu: I have called the end of "Act I" since you have removed yourself now from the repeating problem.
The Tanager and I have agreed to this arrangement and when you return, it will the beginning of "Act II" and it is there that our new strategy will take the lead.


Manu Iti: How will I accomplish change in Act II? Won't Callum simple continue the way he has been?

Wiremu: Undoubtedly! Now that we have clearly come to an understanding of the dynamic, we should be able to use it to advantage our effort to maintain the non-judgmental rule.

Manu Iti: How so?

Wiremu: When you go fishing, what do you use?

Manu Iti: A hook and some bait.

Wiremu: So The Tanager is using Callum as the hook and the algorithm as the bait. If the fish is aware of the bait and the hook...

Manu Iti: Then the fish does not bite!

Wiremu: Exactly! We shall simply adhere to the rule and any questions Callum asks which our answers can be in any way construed as 'judgement' then we do not answer.

Manu Iti: But won't that make Callum disinterested in continuing the discussion at the Campfire?

Wiremu: I would assume so - either that or he will change his mind about it. Why is he there anyway?

Manu Iti: So that he might find out where he is to go from there?

Wiremu: And what is available to him, should he not change his mind - as the opportunity affords him to do so at the Campfire?

I do not have to think long on the obvious answer to that question...

Manu Iti: He will have to move on to The Kingdom of Judgement, beyond the Twelve Judges Mountain Range

Wiremu: Precisely! Either stick to the rule using ones own self responsibility, or depart from the Campfire.

Manu Iti: I think this is reasonable.

Wiremu: Once more, my apologies for having allowed you to be put through what you have. Hopefully we come away from this meeting with a greater understanding of the dynamics involved. I will leave you now, bearing in mind, I am never far from where you are.

Manu Iti: Thank you for your help Wiremu. It means a lot to me.

Wiremu: And you to I, Manu Iti. We will meet again.

With that, the Ponds surface slowly replaces Wiremu's image with that of the starscape. An owl hoots, and I return the call, for I know which Owl is calling.

[center]~0~[/center]

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Post #90

Post by William »

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