Are atheists afraid of God?

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Paul of Tarsus
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Are atheists afraid of God?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

In response to Stephen Hawking's quip, "Religion is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," apologist John Lennox said, "And atheism is a fairy story for those afraid of the light."

Do atheists fear that light aka God? I would answer no assuming I knew atheists to be completely sensible and rational in their rejection of theism, but they very often aren't sensible and rational in their unbelief. In this forum, for example, an atheist said he lost his belief in God when he realized that there are different religions. When I tried to explain to him that those conflicting faiths can be explained as some of them getting a real God wrong, well, it did me no good! It's simply illogical to conclude that God doesn't exist because some people disagree about him. His atheism is obviously based on faulty logic. What's odd about these cases involving atheists using poor reasoning to reject God is that those atheists seem quite reasonable otherwise. My guess is that they fear God and wish that he doesn't exist. Atheism is for them a sanctuary from theism and a hope that reality harbors no scary God.

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

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Post by Tcg »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:15 pm He was a "baby atheist" at that time having left Christianity only a year or two prior to his trying to take his own life.
Atheists, baby ones or otherwise, do not call out to God for help. You are using a hearsay tale of a theist to prove your claim that atheists fear God. It's not very convincing for obvious reasons.


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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

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Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:33 pm In response to Stephen Hawking's quip, "Religion is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," apologist John Lennox said, "And atheism is a fairy story for those afraid of the light."

Do atheists fear that light aka God? I would answer no assuming I knew atheists to be completely sensible and rational in their rejection of theism, but they very often aren't sensible and rational in their unbelief. In this forum, for example, an atheist said he lost his belief in God when he realized that there are different religions. When I tried to explain to him that those conflicting faiths can be explained as some of them getting a real God wrong, well, it did me no good! It's simply illogical to conclude that God doesn't exist because some people disagree about him. His atheism is obviously based on faulty logic. What's odd about these cases involving atheists using poor reasoning to reject God is that those atheists seem quite reasonable otherwise. My guess is that they fear God and wish that he doesn't exist. Atheism is for them a sanctuary from theism and a hope that reality harbors no scary God.
There are many gods, but as the 1st commandment says, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". The pagan gods are derived from the "men of renown", per Genesis, who were the product of "heavenly watchers" and the daughters of Men (Enoch) & (Genesis). The men of renown died, but their demon spirits live on, such as happened in the false prophet and the beast (Rev 16:13). The present day mayhem is probably the result of the demons seeing their near coming demise, which occurs at the beginning of the millennium. (Rev 20:1-3)

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #143

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Tcg wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:01 pm...an individual who calls out to God for help is not an atheist.
My suicidal friend was probably experiencing cognitive dissonance during his suicide attempt. Psychologists are well acquainted with cognitive dissonance defining it as a state of holding contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. Cognitive dissonance often occurs under stress, so it should come as no surprise that an atheist might call out to God when fearing that death is imminent.

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:05 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:33 pm In response to Stephen Hawking's quip, "Religion is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," apologist John Lennox said, "And atheism is a fairy story for those afraid of the light."

Do atheists fear that light aka God? I would answer no assuming I knew atheists to be completely sensible and rational in their rejection of theism, but they very often aren't sensible and rational in their unbelief. In this forum, for example, an atheist said he lost his belief in God when he realized that there are different religions. When I tried to explain to him that those conflicting faiths can be explained as some of them getting a real God wrong, well, it did me no good! It's simply illogical to conclude that God doesn't exist because some people disagree about him. His atheism is obviously based on faulty logic. What's odd about these cases involving atheists using poor reasoning to reject God is that those atheists seem quite reasonable otherwise. My guess is that they fear God and wish that he doesn't exist. Atheism is for them a sanctuary from theism and a hope that reality harbors no scary God.
There are many gods, but as the 1st commandment says, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". The pagan gods are derived from the "men of renown", per Genesis, who were the product of "heavenly watchers" and the daughters of Men (Enoch) & (Genesis). The men of renown died, but their demon spirits live on, such as happened in the false prophet and the beast (Rev 16:13). The present day mayhem is probably the result of the demons seeing their near coming demise, which occurs at the beginning of the millennium. (Rev 20:1-3)
Are atheists afraid of God?

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #145

Post by Kylie »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:10 pm
Kylie wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:12 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:04 pm I didn't "support" either statement because I assumed that people can readily understand the truth of both statements. In any case, why don't you see that zenomorphs cannot really exist because they were created in Hollywood as fanciful monsters? As for the possibility of God, why would you say he cannot exist?
So the xenomorph doesn't exist because it was created by a guy to play a particular role in a movie?
The zenomorph does not exist as an actual space monster, obviously. It can't exist as a real space monster unless by some wildly improbable coincidence the makers of the movie Alien came up with a monster that really exists beyond the earth!
So?

Let's say God is equally fictitious. Would you use the same argument on God? God can't exist as a real deity unless by some wildly improbable coincidence the writers of the books of the Bible came up with a deity that really exists beyond the earth!
I can just as easily say that God doesn't really exist because he was created by people thousands of years ago to play a particular role in their mythology.
Your analogy here is a poor fit because unlike zenomorphs, God's attributes are not well defined. As a result, a God may exist who has traits that are very different from the gods that people have created and popularized. So while you are likely correct that we can conclude with justification that the gods of religion don't really exist except in the dogmas of those religions, a God that they didn't create might still exist.
So in order to increase the likelihood that God exists, he needs to be kept vague and undefined. That sounds like poor logic to me, sounds like you just want to keep God unfalsifiable so he can't be falsified.

In any case, the analogy is not a poor fit. The structure of both is the same: "X does not exist because it was invented by a person to fulfill a particular dramatic need in a story that was being told."
And again, why do you say God can't exist?
I don't think I ever said specifically that God doesn't exist, but I do think the existence of God is unlikely and I live my life as though he doesn't. My reasons for doing so are that I've never seen anything for which a god is required, and the arguments for god are flawed and filled with fallacies.

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #146

Post by Kylie »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:25 pm
Goat wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:17 am
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:33 pm Do atheists fear that light aka God?
A short answer is "NO".
I assume you mean that most atheists don't fear God, but you allow for some exceptions. One exception I know of is an atheist who attempted to take his own life by downing an overdose of sleeping pills. When he began to lose consciousness he thought he was dying and became terrified of that prospect. He began calling out to God to save him, and he survived his suicide attempt. While the role that God took in these events is debatable, this atheist clearly feared God.
Of course, a desperate man reaching for anything that might save him doesn't prove that he secretly deep down really believed in God the whole time. Also, just because he called out to God doesn't mean anything. My husband does things to me that make me call out to God as well. ;)
I would say that atheists, if they are 'afraid' of anything are more afraid of the actions and attitudes of a number of believers, not of any mythical God.
I'm afraid of the actions and attitudes of some religious believers too, but in recent years I've become uncomfortable with the beliefs of a lot of atheists too. I am in particular concerned with their often irrational support of the euthanizing of the disabled.

So atheists can be scary too.
I'm not aware of any atheists that hold the position that disabled people should be euthanized. I do know of many who believe that euthanasia should be an option for people who make the choice themselves, however. But never forced.

In any case, even if there was such a person it doesn't follow that they reached this position due to their atheism.

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #147

Post by Kylie »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:15 pmHe was a "baby atheist" at that time having left Christianity only a year or two prior to his trying to take his own life.
Ah, so it was a case of old habits dying hard.

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #148

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Kylie wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:23 amLet's say God is equally fictitious. Would you use the same argument on God? God can't exist as a real deity unless by some wildly improbable coincidence the writers of the books of the Bible came up with a deity that really exists beyond the earth!
No, obviously I don't argue for the existence of God that way. The gods of religion are like zenomorphs in that those gods were created by people. Like zenomorphs, the gods of religion in all probability don't exist beyond what people imagine. Nevertheless, space monsters can still exist, and God can still exist. Just because some gods were created by people doesn't mean that all gods are their creation. Walt Disney created Mickey Mouse, but mice can and do still exist.
Your analogy here is a poor fit because unlike zenomorphs, God's attributes are not well defined. As a result, a God may exist who has traits that are very different from the gods that people have created and popularized. So while you are likely correct that we can conclude with justification that the gods of religion don't really exist except in the dogmas of those religions, a God that they didn't create might still exist.
So in order to increase the likelihood that God exists, he needs to be kept vague and undefined. That sounds like poor logic to me, sounds like you just want to keep God unfalsifiable so he can't be falsified.
No. Since God is different from the gods of religion, then he might still exist because he does not have traits that people creating a god would attribute to that god. By analogy, professional wrestlers have traits that should indicate that they are not true wrestlers but showmen. Olympic wrestlers don't have those traits, and therefore we can sensibly conclude that Olympic wrestlers are not mere showmen but actual competitors. Similar reasoning applies to God.

I do agree, though, that God being ill defined is a problem for theism. God being unfalsifiable is perhaps also another problem for theism.
"X does not exist because it was invented by a person to fulfill a particular dramatic need in a story that was being told."
Other Xs not created by people can still exist even though people have created some Xs.
...a desperate man reaching for anything that might save him doesn't prove that he secretly deep down really believed in God the whole time. Also, just because he called out to God doesn't mean anything.
I think that you are correct that the suicidal man in question did not at all times think that God exists. It was during his ordeal and the resulting emotional trauma he experienced that his evidently subconscious theism emerged. His thinking and his fear were in opposition. Psychologists call such a state "cognitive dissonance," and it is not uncommon.
I'm not aware of any atheists that hold the position that disabled people should be euthanized.
Then you may wish to inform yourself about Peter Singer. According to the Chicago Tribune in their article THE ETHICS OF KILLING THOSE WHO GET IN THE WAY:
He (Peter Singer) believes it is wrong to eat animals but not necessarily immoral to kill disabled human babies or senile adults. He opposes the use of animals in medical experiments but advocates the right of parents to kill their infants if they suffer from a debilitating condition such as hemophilia. He has published several books and scholarly articles arguing his theses, gaining him worldwide recognition.
In any case, even if there was such a person it doesn't follow that they reached this position due to their atheism.
True, but it does seem so common among atheists to favor euthanizing the sick and the disabled.

So why didn't you just use a search engine to investigate atheists who favor euthanizing the disabled?

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #149

Post by Goat »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:15 pm
tam wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:41 pm
[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #135]

I assume you mean that most atheists don't fear God, but you allow for some exceptions. One exception I know of is an atheist who attempted to take his own life by downing an overdose of sleeping pills. When he began to lose consciousness he thought he was dying and became terrified of that prospect. He began calling out to God to save him, and he survived his suicide attempt. While the role that God took in these events is debatable, this atheist clearly feared God.
Sounds to me like he feared death.
He was obviously terrified of death, but he has informed me that he also feared damnation for his apparently impending suicide. He was a "baby atheist" at that time having left Christianity only a year or two prior to his trying to take his own life. This incident occurred in 1987, and he has never returned to belief in any Gods. He explains the paradox of his terror of death (and God) and being an atheist as his not being in his right mind at the time. The emotional part of his mind temporarily overrode the rational part of his mind vanquishing for a time his reasons to be an atheist replacing those reasons with a fear of God. Such conflicts in the psyche are actually very common. (See my rollercoaster illustration above.)

By the way, this experience has convinced him that contrary to what a lot of atheists think, suicide is rarely if ever an option. When you face the grim reaper and an eternity of oblivion, you will want life and whatever it has to offer. Just listen to what those eminent philosophers Queen have to say about suicide:
Don't do it don't you try it baby
Don't do that don't don't don't
Don't do that
You got a good thing going now
Don't do it don't do it
Don't
Don't try suicide
Nobody's worth it
Don't try suicide
Nobody cares
Don't try suicide
You're just gonna hate it
Don't try suicide
Nobody gives a damn
Well, what you describe is someone who is intellectually an atheist , but not emotionally. and someone who emotionally reverted to his childhood conditioning in a moment of stress.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #150

Post by Kylie »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:42 am
Kylie wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:23 amLet's say God is equally fictitious. Would you use the same argument on God? God can't exist as a real deity unless by some wildly improbable coincidence the writers of the books of the Bible came up with a deity that really exists beyond the earth!
No, obviously I don't argue for the existence of God that way. The gods of religion are like zenomorphs in that those gods were created by people. Like zenomorphs, the gods of religion in all probability don't exist beyond what people imagine. Nevertheless, space monsters can still exist, and God can still exist. Just because some gods were created by people doesn't mean that all gods are their creation. Walt Disney created Mickey Mouse, but mice can and do still exist.
And of course, you happen to have got the one religion that was NOT invented by humans...
No. Since God is different from the gods of religion, then he might still exist because he does not have traits that people creating a god would attribute to that god. By analogy, professional wrestlers have traits that should indicate that they are not true wrestlers but showmen. Olympic wrestlers don't have those traits, and therefore we can sensibly conclude that Olympic wrestlers are not mere showmen but actual competitors. Similar reasoning applies to God.
Special pleading. You are assuming that your god was not invented by humans but all other gods were.
I do agree, though, that God being ill defined is a problem for theism. God being unfalsifiable is perhaps also another problem for theism.
It appears to be a problem you are happy to take advantage of when it allows you a way to wriggle out of a point of logic I use against your God.
Other Xs not created by people can still exist even though people have created some Xs.
But if no one can demonstrate that a real X actually exists, yet we have plenty of examples of fictitious Xs, then we should conclude that any X is fictitious until we are shown evidence that it is real. So far, I have not seen any evidence that your God is real.
I think that you are correct that the suicidal man in question did not at all times think that God exists. It was during his ordeal and the resulting emotional trauma he experienced that his evidently subconscious theism emerged. His thinking and his fear were in opposition. Psychologists call such a state "cognitive dissonance," and it is not uncommon.
And yet you were perfectly happy to use this when it supported your argument.
Then you may wish to inform yourself about Peter Singer. According to the Chicago Tribune in their article THE ETHICS OF KILLING THOSE WHO GET IN THE WAY:
There's no mention in that article about his position resulting from atheism.
True, but it does seem so common among atheists to favor euthanizing the sick and the disabled.
I've got no problem with people choosing to end their life voluntarily. But I think most atheists would draw the line at deciding that a person should die because they are sick, without the consent of the person in question.
So why didn't you just use a search engine to investigate atheists who favor euthanizing the disabled?
I just did. Very few results compared to the usual Google Search, and many of those did not actually fit the criteria. For example, most of them were about people who were AGAINST euthanasia.
Atheist euth.jpg

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