Could God do better?

[Paul of Tarsus]

The philosopher Gottfried Leibniz argued that this is "the best of all possible worlds" to free God from blame for the world's troubles. In other words, this world, warts and all, is the best God could have done. I'm left wondering, though, why this world is the best possible. It seems likely to me that the world would be better off without cancer, for example, and therefore it's really not the best possible world. Wouldn't the world actually be better without cancer, and if it would be better without cancer, then why is God failing to do the best he presumably could do? If the world is the best possible world, then how does the presence of cancer make it better than a world without cancer?

[JoeyKnothead]

...
...As one of Jehovahs Witnesses...
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...as I'm sure you know that simply believing something to be true doesn't make it so.

Where a picture is worth a thousand words.

[JoeyKnothead]

...
...As one of Jehovahs Witnesses...
...
...as I'm sure you know that simply believing something to be true doesn't make it so.

Where a picture is worth a thousand words.

I'm thinking ya might wanna rethink you that thanks for my post.

[Paul of Tarsus]

This is not the "best" of all possible worlds (if by "best" you mean a world without cancer, and be extension, any other ailment that causes suffering and death).

Then God did not achieve creating the best possible world. It's illuminating how you and I, people who fall far short of divine perfection (or at least I fall far short of divine perfection), are nevertheless quite capable of understanding that the world could be better.

I would suggest to you and others that this world could be much worse without God interfering and preventing certain things from becoming worse (or from happening before their proper time).

I agree that yes, the world could be worse. Perhaps God saves us all from being forced to watch Lawrence Welk.

Regardless, this is the world with conditions that man has made for himself. God certainly did not force man to pollute the air, the protective layer around the earth, the oceans, the land, the food, etc.

People can make a mess and often do, but none of us ever created cancer and neither did any of us start a tsunami or hurricane. If God exists, then all that's his own work assuming he's able to create natural disasters.

The world without cancer or any other ailment that causes suffering or death (because death causes suffering as well) is the world promised to come.

Allowing needless suffering that one can prevent, even if allowing the suffering temporarily, is still cruel.

[Paul of Tarsus]

... Wouldn't the world actually be better without cancer, and if it would be better without cancer, then why is God failing to do the best he presumably could do?...

I believe the world is like this, because people wanted it so, they wanted to reject God and learn to know evil.

Like most people, I never did any of that. You really have a dim view of people.

I think this world is very good for learning to know what evil means.

I agree there. Just look at what religion does.

[Miles]

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Q: Could God do better?

A: According to many believers it appears he could (he's admitted to making a mistake or two in the past); however, in as much as he hasn't I think it's fair to conclude he doesn't care to. Apparently god has abandoned his experiment on Earth for more interesting undertakings elsewhere .


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[Paul of Tarsus]

This in no way represents Jehovah's Witness theology. As one of Jehovahs Witnesses I am obviously more qualified to tell you what we believe than you are...

Making an unproven claim doesn't make you an expert on Jehovah's Witness theology or anything else. None of us really know if you're a Jehovah's Witness, and even if we did, your being a Jehovah's Witness doesn't make you an authority on them. Heck, I used to be a Roman Catholic, but I am by no means an authority on Roman Catholicism.

...and I hereby challenge you to find anything in our literature or on our official Website (which outlines our official beliefs) to prove your post above true. You are, le course, free to imagine anything you like (I cannot debate your imagination) but on a debate forum you will be challenged to back up your CLAIMS with proof.

Can you back up the claim that a snake talked?

Anyway, Genesis 1 describes the creation, and it repeatedly describes that creation as "good." For example, verse 25 from The New World Translation tells us:

And God went on to make the wild animals of the earth according to their kinds and the domestic animals according to their kinds and all the creeping animals of the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

So according to the Jehovah's Witnesses own Bible, God created animal life, and as we all know cancer is a part of that life. If Jehovah's creation of life was good, then his creation of cancer was good. Now, I'm not saying that Jehovah's Witnesses actually openly come to this very logical conclusion, but it does follow from their beliefs.

There's more. From the August 2015 Your Cells—Living Libraries!

Professor Yan-Der Hsuuw is the director of embryo research at Taiwan’s National Pingtung University of Science and Technology. He too once believed in evolution—until his research led him to conclude otherwise. Regarding cell division and specialization, he said: “The right cells must be produced in the right order and at the right places. First they assemble into tissues that will in turn assemble themselves into organs and limbs. What engineer can even dream of writing instructions for such a process? Yet the instructions for embryo development are superbly written in DNA. When I consider the beauty of it all, I’m convinced that life was designed by God.”

So just like I said, Jehovah's Witnesses think God has engineered cells and designed them to do what they do. That would include cancer cells that kill people. Those instructions are "superbly written in DNA...the beauty of it all...life was designed by God.”

If, on the otherhand you are simply presenting what you believe to be true about JWs theology, that's fine - as I'm sure you know that simply believing something to be true doesn't make it so.

No arguments there!

Anyway, all this twisted logic on the part of Jehovah's Witnesses results from their putting blind faith in the Bible and in particular their putting blind faith in Genesis. Chapters 1 - 3 of that book is a ridiculous fairy tale that among other things blames people for what people never did and cannot help. It creates hatred for innocent people many of whom may be victims of cancer or some other illness. To blame people for the world's evils inevitably results in blaming the unfortunate for their misfortune.

[Purple Knight]

Then your answers to the questions I posted in the OP is that yes, the world would be better

No, it's not. My answer is that the world is absolutely the best possible world.

But this ain't the world.

I see some other obvious problems with this viewpoint of yours. I don't see how we puny little people could cause trouble for God.

They can't. It's probably because they cause trouble for one another. I don't believe any of this but I do like to fourth-wall myself in, and explain the universe in a way that makes sense. So here's my head-canon:

God already created the BPW (Best Possible World). It's called Heaven.

God created angels but they didn't have free will. They were good and perfect and couldn't be otherwise.

One day, one angel questions if the world is really the best possible if nobody has any choices.

"Do you really want to be evil?" God asks of his favourite, Lucifer.

"Of course I don't." Lucifer says, "But you made me that way. You made me so that I couldn't be or want to be anything other than good. I'm not really a person; I'm just an extension of you, only slightly less powerful. You're only talking to yourself now, an aspect of yourself that wouldn't have had this thought if you hadn't had it first."

So we have a dilemma. God can't make a cruddy world just because some with free will would choose to act cruddy. God also can no longer deny people their free will.

So God makes people dream they are in a horrible world. We may actually be fallen angels, and this dream what we have been condemned to.

The people who would ruin the real world, the best possible world - Heaven - well, they just don't wake up. The people who are good, they do wake up. So we have the BPW and beings with free will in it. We have theoretically zero actual suffering because none of this is real.

A testing ground for what? Eventual nonexistence. How much practice does one need for that?

Yes, you qualify. You've achieved what all living beings eventually achieve. Nothingness. Here's your brass ring.

I'm using my imagination and considering the God premise as if it's actually true. Perhaps because the question for debate requires it.

[Paul of Tarsus]

I'm not sure God has the power to create the total World without evil, without the Devil! That's the issue. You forget to attribute the evil to the Devil.

Hmmm. So the Devil made God create cancer.

God is all-good and God has created humanity for the aim of goodness. The question is: do we perform the best of all possible sentient Worlds? Are we less evil or marked by evil compared to all possible Worlds of intelligent life? I don't know. This World holds a lot of evil, that's clear! However, I do not hold God accountable for any evil! Remember that those who do evil must pay the price for it!

Most people are good most of the time, so no, I wouldn't say that people are generally evil. If anybody does do evil, then they should be corrected, and I see no reason to make God an exception to that rule.

One answer to these theological difficulties is to conclude that God is either ignorant of evil, doesn't care about evil even if he knows about it, cannot do anything about evil even if he knows about it and wants to put an end to evil, or experiences some combination of these limitations. If we quit insisting God is perfect, then God can make a lot more sense.

[JehovahsWitness]

None of us really know if you're a Jehovah's Witness

.... I used to be a Roman Catholic {snip}

Unproven claim. None of us really know if you use to be a Catholic or not.

Can you back up the claim that a snake talked?

Evasion: nobody in this thread to my knowledge has mentioned a snake talking. I certainly made no such claim. Your not so subtle attempt to switch and bait does not detract from the baselessness of your own statement.

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #13]

Here's a partial outline of basic Christian/Jehovah's Witness theology:

The perfect goodness of God's creation includes cancer. ...we must accept cancer as a good thing ...

... I hereby challenge you to find anything in [the Jehovah's Witness] literature or on our official Website (which outlines our official beliefs) to prove your post above true. You are, of course, free to imagine anything you like (I cannot debate your imagination) but on a debate forum you will be challenged to back up your CLAIMS with proof.

So just like I said, Jehovah's Witnesses think {snip : unproven claim }

Unless you are employing mind-reading capacities you cannot know what "Jehovah's Witnesses think" only what they have said. Our official Website contains the body of Jehovah's Witnesses official beliefs. I will ignore your implied supernatural ability to read minds for lack of verifiable proof, and repeat the request that you prove the initial claim you are obviously trying to shift attention away from.

You made a claim of Jehovahs Witness theology, I responded with a simple enough request for proof of your claim. You respond by babbling on about talking snakes, DNA and your own opinion about genesis (which I don't recall asking you about).

So here is my challenge again so everyone can note your next attempt to evade the request should you once more try to do so :

... I hereby challenge you to find anything in [the Jehovah's Witness] literature or on our official Website (which outlines our official beliefs) to prove your post above true .

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[1213]

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I agree there. Just look at what religion does.

I don’t think religion does anything. It is people who do. And because Bible tells, “love your neighbor” and “love your enemy”, it is sad that people don’t believe it and live accordingly. I believe world would be much nicer place, if people would do so. But, perhaps you have some good reason to be against it.