Why so low retention and low education?

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Zzyzx
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Why so low retention and low education?

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

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Why so low retention and low education?
Jehovah’s Witnesses have a low retention rate relative to other U.S. religious groups. Among all U.S. adults who were raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses, two-thirds (66%) no longer identify with the group.
By contrast, 35% of Evangelical Protestants and Mormons leave their respective groups.

Compared with other U.S. religious groups, Jehovah’s Witnesses tend to be less educated. A solid majority of adult Jehovah’s Witnesses (63%) have no more than a high school diploma, compared with, for example, 43% of evangelical Protestants and 37% of mainline Protestants.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... n-the-u-s/
Two-thirds LEAVE.

Two-thirds have not gone beyond high school.


What accounts for such a high attrition rate compared to Evangelical Protestants and Mormons?

What accounts for low education rate compared to Evangelical Protestants and Mainline Protestants.?
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Re: Why so low retention and low education?

Post #11

Post by nobspeople »

Zzyzx wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:42 pm .
Why so low retention and low education?
Jehovah’s Witnesses have a low retention rate relative to other U.S. religious groups. Among all U.S. adults who were raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses, two-thirds (66%) no longer identify with the group.
By contrast, 35% of Evangelical Protestants and Mormons leave their respective groups.

Compared with other U.S. religious groups, Jehovah’s Witnesses tend to be less educated. A solid majority of adult Jehovah’s Witnesses (63%) have no more than a high school diploma, compared with, for example, 43% of evangelical Protestants and 37% of mainline Protestants.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... n-the-u-s/
Two-thirds LEAVE.

Two-thirds have not gone beyond high school.


What accounts for such a high attrition rate compared to Evangelical Protestants and Mormons?

What accounts for low education rate compared to Evangelical Protestants and Mainline Protestants.?
Sometimes, even the most 'out there' belief system can trap the most intelligent among us. Sometimes, they trap the least mentally sound individuals. While 'intelligence' plays a part in what sect/cult one joins, I think the needs of the individual plays just as an important part.

As with any religion, there are those considered in the 'upper echelon' and those among the 'lower'. I'll leave that up to the individual to determine where the JWs lay, but I suspect it's not much higher than Scientology.
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Re: Why so low retention and low education?

Post #12

Post by Difflugia »

nobspeople wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 10:27 amSometimes, even the most 'out there' belief system can trap the most intelligent among us. Sometimes, they trap the least mentally sound individuals. While 'intelligence' plays a part in what sect/cult one joins, I think the needs of the individual plays just as an important part.
Remembering that we're talking about lack of education rather than intelligence, there's a very distinct message that is built into the overall JW experience in two prongs. First, as pointed out earlier in the thread, JW literature actively discourages and denigrates higher education as selfish, un-Christian, and useful only in the pursuit of a higher-paying career:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:57 amWHY DO JEHOVAHS WITNESSES NOT GENERALLY HAVE DIPLOMAS FROM SCHOOLS OF HIGHER SECULAR EDUCATION?
CONVERTS While Jehovahs Witnesses are known to preach to all sectors or society indiscriminatly and do not target any demographic, it is undeniable that those most attracted to their particular message and the lifestyle it entails are by far the majority, humble working class people of modest means. This means most will not have had the means or opportunity to access higher education.
In fact, a Watchtower from 2019 lists the three tactics that the literal Satan uses to entrap the unsuspecting: convincing them to say "Lord" instead of "Jehovah," turning them gay, and making them want to go to college. No part of that is a joke or hyperbole!

There's a second prong, though, which is to present the worship service ("meeting") as a form of education and not just metaphorically. When I visit the Kingdom Hall, Witnesses routinely take the opportunity to point out to me that as Jehovah's Witnesses, they study the Bible in a way that other Christians just don't. The impression isn't accidental, either. The "Study Edition" of the Watchtower is set up like a workbook with questions in the margins that can be answered by reading the article. Each paragraph is numbered and gets a corresponding question. For example, paragraph 11 of the article I mentioned includes the following:
These apostates started to blur the identity of the only true God. For example, they stopped using the divine name in their copies of the Bible and preferred such expressions as “Lord.”
There's a corresponding question at the bottom of the page to make sure the reader gets the point:

Image

During the second half of the meeting, the article is read aloud, then each question is asked and congregants are selected to read their answers and add any additional insight that they may have. The experience is just like a school lesson with a question and response session. It's education.
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Re: Why so low retention and low education?

Post #13

Post by nobspeople »

Difflugia wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 2:18 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 10:27 amSometimes, even the most 'out there' belief system can trap the most intelligent among us. Sometimes, they trap the least mentally sound individuals. While 'intelligence' plays a part in what sect/cult one joins, I think the needs of the individual plays just as an important part.
Remembering that we're talking about lack of education rather than intelligence, there's a very distinct message that is built into the overall JW experience in two prongs. First, as pointed out earlier in the thread, JW literature actively discourages and denigrates higher education as selfish, un-Christian, and useful only in the pursuit of a higher-paying career:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:57 amWHY DO JEHOVAHS WITNESSES NOT GENERALLY HAVE DIPLOMAS FROM SCHOOLS OF HIGHER SECULAR EDUCATION?
CONVERTS While Jehovahs Witnesses are known to preach to all sectors or society indiscriminatly and do not target any demographic, it is undeniable that those most attracted to their particular message and the lifestyle it entails are by far the majority, humble working class people of modest means. This means most will not have had the means or opportunity to access higher education.
In fact, a Watchtower from 2019 lists the three tactics that the literal Satan uses to entrap the unsuspecting: convincing them to say "Lord" instead of "Jehovah," turning them gay, and making them want to go to college. No part of that is a joke or hyperbole!

There's a second prong, though, which is to present the worship service ("meeting") as a form of education and not just metaphorically. When I visit the Kingdom Hall, Witnesses routinely take the opportunity to point out to me that as Jehovah's Witnesses, they study the Bible in a way that other Christians just don't. The impression isn't accidental, either. The "Study Edition" of the Watchtower is set up like a workbook with questions in the margins that can be answered by reading the article. Each paragraph is numbered and gets a corresponding question. For example, paragraph 11 of the article I mentioned includes the following:
These apostates started to blur the identity of the only true God. For example, they stopped using the divine name in their copies of the Bible and preferred such expressions as “Lord.”
There's a corresponding question at the bottom of the page to make sure the reader gets the point:

Image

During the second half of the meeting, the article is read aloud, then each question is asked and congregants are selected to read their answers and add any additional insight that they may have. The experience is just like a school lesson with a question and response session. It's education.
True, to a point. I didn't read the whole thread, but I think intelligence and lack of (wanting or getting) education can't always be totally seen as independent of each other.
One can be 'educated' but if they're intelligent enough, they should be able to see through garbage, lies and manipulation. To a point.
There's extremes in most everything humanity gets involved into, religion included.
Regardless, it's sad, to me, that people can't make their belief speak for itself. If it's so true, so right, so righteous, they shouldn't have to 'teach' them anything. It should make logical sense. If it doesn't, then, IMO, you're setting yourself up for a big problem.
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Re: Why so low retention and low education?

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Post by Difflugia »

nobspeople wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 3:03 pmTrue, to a point. I didn't read the whole thread, but I think intelligence and lack of (wanting or getting) education can't always be totally seen as independent of each other.
I'll agree with that, too. The point I was making is that I don't think Jehovah's Witnesses are targeting lack of intelligence per se, but lack of education. I've talked to enough earnest apologists to know that even someone intelligent has a difficult time seeing past the most deeply flawed methods of evaluating data if that's how they've been trained.
nobspeople wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 3:03 pmIf it's so true, so right, so righteous, they shouldn't have to 'teach' them anything. It should make logical sense. If it doesn't, then, IMO, you're setting yourself up for a big problem.
Logic, critical thinking, and the ability to evaluate evidence aren't innate and must be learned as skills. The overall pattern we see is a series of aspersions cast on sources that can teach those skills, while replacing them with mere shadows of the genuine article.

If the topic is worth a few hours to you, download some issues of the Study Edition of The Watchtower. Pick some at random (so there's no way to accuse me of cherry-picking) and examine the questions with the study articles. Invariably, the question has a straightforward answer within the text. None of the questions involve any sort of weighing of evidence, evaluating a variety of data, or even introspection, but are always about finding the answer within either the specific paragraph of The Watchtower itself or a helpfully-provided verse of the NWT. The only skill that this exercises is finding the answer in the Watchtower. As you examine the questions, remember that these questions are for adults. This is what I'm told, with knowing, appreciative looks, is serious Bible study. I have seriously, unironically been told that "other churches don't go to this depth."

I suppose, in the strictest sense, that's true.
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Re: Why so low retention and low education?

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Difflugia wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 4:35 pm ... I don't think Jehovah's Witnesses are targeting lack of intelligence per se, but lack of education.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not target any demographic; we preach in every area to every type of people regardless of their background or education.


Your statement is false.





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Do Jehovah's Witnesses deliberately target particular demographics?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 94#p960294
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Why so low retention and low education?

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Post by Difflugia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 4:55 pm
Difflugia wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 4:35 pm ... I don't think Jehovah's Witnesses are targeting lack of intelligence per se, but lack of education.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not target any demographic; we preach in every area to every type of people regardless of their background or education.

Your statement is false.
That remains to be seen

Those two statements aren't mutually contradictory. I can preach the same message to Kentucky coal miners and MIT professors, but if that message is "free boots to anyone without a PhD," it's pretty clear which group will be most represented in the response. Of course, I could always just insist that it was unintentional on my part and I meant to give away just as many boots to the professors. Nobody can know for sure what my intentions were, after all. I think at that point, though, most reasonable people would recognize that the burden of showing that I wasn't targeting the coal miners is a bit higher, given the evidence thus far, than the justifiable conclusion that I was.
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Re: Why so low retention and low education?

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Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:57 am WHY DO JEHOVAHS WITNESSES NOT GENERALLY HAVE DIPLOMAS FROM SCHOOLS OF HIGHER SECULAR EDUCATION?

Although there are of course individuals who have high secular qualifications in various fields, generally speaking Jehovahs Witnesses members do not possess qualifications from higher schools of learning. There are two main reasons for this.

CONVERTS While Jehovahs Witnesses are known to preach to all sectors or society indiscriminatly and do not target any demographic, it is undeniable that those most attracted to their particular message and the lifestyle it entails are by far the majority, humble working class people of modest means.
And why are the humble working class people of modest means more susceptible to believing JW claims? I suggest it's because they are never taught how to properly evaluate the pros and cons of an issue, whereas those with a higher education are taught, whether explicitly or not, how to better assess allegations and arguments, which makes them a far more difficult "sell" for JW folk. So it's no surprise that Jehovahs Witnesses frown on its members becoming better educated. What organization wants its members given the tools with which to possibly discover its faults and weaknesses. Which is why we get a philosophy like . . . . . . .

. . . . .
VALUES Jehovahs Witnesses are definitely encouraged to live modest simple lives focusing on spiritual matters rather than the accumulation of wealth. For this reason they encourage their own children not to pursue higher secular education but rather focus on getting only enough education to earn enough to cover their needs and provide for their families (for example by learning a trade)* .

* " In the JW Broadcasting program of January 2015, Governing body member Anthony Morriss stated the advantages of attending a " technical or vocational schools offering short term courses that result in a certificate or diploma in a trade or service" he also pointed out {quote} "as parents we would be remis if we did not encourage our child to pursue a skill or trade" to support themselves." {end quote}
As if pursuing higher education would prevent this. Image As I say, I think preventing or discouraging one's children from going to college is simply a means to keep them from discovering the Jehovahs Witness's faults and weaknesses.


Evidence seems to indicates the JWs enjoy a relatively high employment rate. : While their general level of formal qualifications is not conducive to elevated levels of affluence, the Jehovahs Witness emphasis on employable skills and solid work ethics arguably contributes to them not suffering from the high unemployment rate that is often a characteristic of those with this level of Education. In a 2016 Australian study (NSW) for example, it was found that the Witness males stood at 94.2% employment rate, while the general male population stood at over just over 70% during the same period. (Compare: NSW Annual Report Women in NSW 2018 pdf p. 18
https://img.techpowerup.org/200623/scre ... 162418.jpg
Good. Next time I'm at a Walmart and Mcdonalds I'll be sure to wave.

CONCLUSION While schools of higher learning are sometimes viewed the only way to becoming an enlightened, educated, fully rounded individual, this is not the case. Jehovah's Witnesses are an educated people due to the high emphasis their religion places on voluntary community work, literacy and public speaking (All JWs members follow public reading and speaking classes), foreign languages, international travel and missionary work (JWs run a number of their own bible and trade schools), construction skills, disaster relief and cultural diversity.
Got a bit of equivocation going on here. The "education" that Jehovah's Witnesses get due to "the high emphasis their religion places on voluntary community work, literacy and public speaking, foreign languages, international travel and missionary work, construction skills, disaster relief and cultural diversity," is nothing at all like the formal education one gets by going to college. May as well say that spending ten years in prison is an "education," or sweeping floors and making beds in a hospital is an "education."


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Re: Why so low retention and low education?

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Difflugia wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 5:25 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 4:55 pm
Difflugia wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 4:35 pm ... I don't think Jehovah's Witnesses are targeting lack of intelligence per se, but lack of education.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not target any demographic; we preach in every area to every type of people regardless of their background or education.

Your statement is false.
That remains to be seen

No, your statement is false. You may provide facts to try and prove otherwise if you so wish.



Good day to you,



JW

RELATED POSTS


Do Jehovah's Witnesses deliberately target particular demographics?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 94#p960294
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed May 19, 2021 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Why so low retention and low education?

Post #19

Post by Difflugia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 9:31 pmNo, your statement is false. You may provide facts to try and prove otherwise if you so wish.
And since the debates aren't moderated, you may continue to deny the ones that I have.
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Re: Why so low retention and low education?

Post #20

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Difflugia in post #16]
The point I was making is that I don't think Jehovah's Witnesses are targeting lack of intelligence per se, but lack of education.
Thanks for the clarification. For me, I wouldn't give JWs that benefit, based on my experience with them.
I've talked to enough earnest apologists to know that even someone intelligent has a difficult time seeing past the most deeply flawed methods of evaluating data if that's how they've been trained.
Because one chooses to believe. There's nothing logical about the Christian God.
Logic, critical thinking, and the ability to evaluate evidence aren't innate and must be learned as skills.
To a point, yes. But not always. I know many people who seemed to be logical from an early age - an age when others were playing with dolls and plastic dinosaurs. It seems that, for some, logical thinking is part of their makeup somehow. Much like how other aspects (being aggressive, for example).
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