JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:38 am
Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:54 pm
I'm as human as anybody even though I lack what you call free will.
I suppose we are not talking about the same thing since when I say "free will" I am talking about the ability to make decisions which, I dont believe you lack.
I can make some decisions, but I cannot decide to do a lot of other things. I cannot choose to enjoy the odor of feces, and neither can I choose to like the sight of a dead bird rotting on the lawn. Such limitations result from instinctive urges to survive by avoiding dangerous bacteria. All thinking people have such urges conferred on them by our evolution. If we could really freely decide to do whatever we wanted, then our species would have gone extinct.
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:00 am
Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:54 pm
It sounds like that "gift" to Eve and Adam did them no good.
That would depend on what you mean by "
good"; good is a
subjective assessment on ones personal worldview and values. What one person calls "good" another might call "bad".
In the context of the human condition "good" is, at least to me, to be free of suffering. When God imposed suffering on us (if we can believe the story), God took away Eve and Adam's will to remain in paradise by forcing them from Eden. His punishing them that way makes a mockery of the very idea of free choice.
Being able to make decisions did them Adam and Eve "good"as long as they made the right decisons. It is a good thing to be able to decide what do do for yourself, it is the difference between being free and being a "slave". Yes, with such an ability come responsibility, but responsibility is not bad if one is capable of shouldering it. But, as you say, ...." what's so bad about that"
Personally, I'd rather be a slave living in my master's mansion wearing nice clothes and eating good food than to be a free man naked and starving in the gutter. So your analogy is inept.
Anyway, Eve and Adam had a good excuse for taking the snake's advice: They knew nothing of good and evil. In particular, they knew nothing or at least had no experience with death. When God told them that the day they ate the forbidden fruit they would die (which turned out to be wrong, by the way), they would have had little idea of what he was talking about. They were as naive and innocent as young children, and like young children, they should have been protected from dangers they didn't understand. And as any good parent knows, children should not be needlessly exposed to hazards in the first place. If they do go near a potential danger, then any good parent will use force to remove them from that danger. God exposed his creations to a danger they didn't understand--a hazard he should have kept them from.
So JW, the story of the fall in Genesis 3 is in away a story of bad parenting. Any parent stupid enough to plant a deadly tree in her backyard with a poisonous snake in it that is fully accessible to her young daughter and son is a poor parent indeed. If her children do eat fruit from that tree and are poisoned, then the authorities will punish her for child endangerment. She did the wrong and not her kids. She should be punished and not they.
Of course, this logic should be applied to the God of the Bible. Why do you avoid doing so?
I don't want to be a robot (naked of otherwise) I want to be able to make decisions for myself, not just be programmed to do what someone else wants. I want to be capable of genuine goodness, creativity and love. Not having that would be bad.
You have a right to your opinion, of course, but I see no need for you to fuss over the will to do good. You can have that will, but let's just take away your will to do evil! Why would you want the will to do what is wicked? I don't want it, and in fact I have no will to do evil.
Maybe God missed me when he doled out the free will.
He may have missed a lot of other people too. Many people lack any will at all due to cognitive impairment. If a person is comatose, for example, that person may not be able to make any choices. Where's that person's free will?
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:06 am
Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:42 pm
... if people freely will to rape, murder, and wee wee in public, then God can stop them from committing their dirty deeds without violating their free wills.
Yes, that is what laws are for. Laws do not exist only to punish the violator they hopefully deter the violation. To premptively punish or control someone however would violate their rights as free moral agents.
I'm not advocating preemptive punishment, but we do try to control people by preventing them from doing harm. That's why we have burglar alarms, fences, locks, safes, and guard dogs. I see nothing wrong with using them to prevent people from doing harm. Do you?
So the whole concept of free will is simply not logically defensible and has little to do with reality. It's a lame idea cooked up by Christian theologians to try to defeat the charges that a good God would not create a world with suffering in it.