Why can't God be proven?

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nobspeople
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Why can't God be proven?

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Post by nobspeople »

Because of faith faith faith faith - ad nauseam - is normally the answer. But that's an excuse and doesn't really answer the question for many (including many believers if you listen to enough of them).
Surely, if God can create all that is, it could prove itself to everyone, yeah?
Some say this would, somehow, 'cheapen' the experience or that by proving itself to everyone, less people would (again, somehow?) not follow god. That is also an excuse.

What mentally sound person would see irrefutable proof that God is real and that everything God 'said' is real, and still say 'meh... I don't believe it'? Not many I'd suspect! And even if 'many' did do this, wouldn't it be a lot less than those who don't have faith in it and perish?

So for centuries of looking, no proof has been found. Why is that?

Some would say it's 'because there is no god'. And surely that may be true.
But could it also be true that God, creator of all things, is simply forcing people to 'have faith' to find him?
What benefit does that serve such a loving being, to see the inevitable eternal damnation of many of the beings it's said to love?!?

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Re: Why can't God be proven?

Post #91

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:22 am
Purple Knight wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:30 pmI don't think it's silly at all. If you knew God existed, of course you'd do his bidding. But if on some level we all think it's a bunch of prehistoric nonsense, then only those who find real righteousness in the words will follow them.
I suppose it, like everything 'bible', it comes down to how one defines 'righteousness'. If one thinks it's only something you can get from god, sure. But I find it silly (and almost belittling) to suggest that one can only be righteous if they are 'of god'. But some people love to belittle people and thus, raise up their deity.
The reason I don't think it's silly is definitely to do with how I define righteousness. Doing the right thing for the wrong reason? Not righteous. Because you'll get a reward? Definitely not a good reason.

As far as whether what's in the Bible is actually righteous that's a separate issue. But as far as I see, if God could be proven, that would prevent anyone from being righteous, since we're all just doing it to get the reward now.

If I'm being as charitable as possible to Christianity, I think on some level they all know it's nonsense, and if it's all real, that's absolutely intended.

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Re: Why can't God be proven?

Post #92

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Does it matter Why one tries to be 'Righteous' (moral) whether one fears punishment or hopes for reward? Even atheists do it for reasons like long term benefits hoped for or just feeling better about it.

The whole things seems to be about finding excuses for why God hasn't been proven and apparently can't be proven.

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Re: Why can't God be proven?

Post #93

Post by otseng »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:24 am Yet, seems faith is all that it's offering, which isn't very loving at all to me and many.
Faith does not necessarily mean blind faith (absolutely no evidence). As I mentioned before with Dawkins scale, there are levels of evidence and levels of faith. So, no, faith is not all that it's offering.
But there are those that god knows that need more than talking in riddles, 'his word' with its inconsistencies, the lack of proof and the need to rely on 'faith'. God know this and does nothing.
I base my belief on more than riddles, and, if you can believe it, on actual verifiable, empirical evidence. I don't know how many threads I've participated in the S&R subforum arguing for Christianity, without even using the Bible as evidence.
Today and even back then, there were those who didn't believe.
Yes, many didn't believe, even his apostles doubted after he was resurrected!
But I can tell you, after searching for a long, long time, he hasn't shown proof to me one iota.
Maybe he just doesn't care about me?
Well, one suggestion is to get rid of the notion of "proof". As I argued, there's no way to have 100% certainty. I mean, do you claim to be an atheist? Do you have 100% certainty God does not exist?

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Re: Why can't God be proven?

Post #94

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to otseng in post #93]
Faith does not necessarily mean blind faith (absolutely no evidence). As I mentioned before with Dawkins scale, there are levels of evidence and levels of faith. So, no, faith is not all that it's offering.
I said "I'd think that, if this super loving god is loving, he'd want to ensure everyone has the ability to know, not just have faith. Yet, seems faith is all that it's offering, "
I see nothing (including the Dawkins scale) that offers any proof that doesn't require faith. Therefore, my statement stands as 'faith is all it's offering'.
If there's no proof, there's only faith (faith isn't needed if there's proof, now is there?).
Proof, not suggestion.
Not evidence.
Not something one can see as 'proof' while another can see as something else. There's no good, legitimate reason to limit god nor expect anything less from it. And yet, millions sit at his feet pontificating faith when the thing they're 'worshipping' is capable of so much more.
I base my belief on more than riddles, and, if you can believe it, on actual verifiable, empirical evidence.
Subjective, personal choice of 'evidence' is fine for you and those who wish to nurse that wound. Others require more.
Yes, many didn't believe, even his apostles doubted after he was resurrected!
Maybe there was a good, legitimate reason why? But again, we'd have to assume, with no verifiable proof (which this magic man should be capable of providing) of what's written in the accepted bible is true, factual and real. Again, relying on faith, hope, need, desire and wishful thinking.
Well, one suggestion is to get rid of the notion of "proof". As I argued, there's no way to have 100% certainty.
Yet you cite "verifiable, empirical evidence." Which means you're using faith.
I mean, do you claim to be an atheist? Do you have 100% certainty God does not exist?

Why would one think that if I was an atheist and absolutely certain?
That makes literally no sense whatsoever. :dizzy:

It makes sense to use faith, on something that's not real.
When it comes to knowing about god being real (or not), faith isn't necessary.
Faith is needed when it comes to belief.

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Re: Why can't God be proven?

Post #95

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I quite understand that there is a difference between faith (religious belief based on the evidence) and Faith (or Blind faith, which is Faith without good evidence or even in spite of the evidence).

I don't know whether there are Christians who believe in the basis of evidence and it doesn't click over into Faith. There comes a stage when one buys into the belief and it becomes a bit personal. Probably it happens to a lot of us.

'100% proof' really means a very high degree of confidence. We can have a high degree of confidence that mutiny on the Bounty really happened. We cannot be so sure about whose fault it was. 'Well, I don't care what you say. I think Fletcher Christian wasn't to blame and it was all William Bligh's fault'. That's blind (or at least, dismissive) faith.

I'm having trouble rounding this off. I con't want to so another post on Theist -thinking, but just to say that bias or faith doesn't matter, but the weight of evidence does, and of course much depends upon whether one accepts scientific evidence and the rules of logic or not. Science and logic seem to be ok if they support the Faith, but if they don't then they become mere 'opinion'.

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Re: Why can't God be proven?

Post #96

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:38 pm ...
Because I was indoctrinated in the religion. I thought God existed, so I prayed to Him. After about 30+ years of feeling I was talking to myself, I started to question the faith; and began more extensive investigation(s).

1. So, is God playing hide and seek with me, or...
2. Am I too stupid to know He is actually contacting me, or...
3. Am I too plagued with evil to know He is/was calling on me?

If God answers your prayers, please pray for God to contact me, or, have God tell you something about me, so you can share that knowledge here with me? This will prove He speaks to you. Otherwise, I'm not so sure God speaks to you at all; if you claim He ever has?
Why do you want Him to contact you?

I think God speaks through the Bible. There is His message for all people. At the moment I don’t see it necessary to repeat it in some other way.

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Re: Why can't God be proven?

Post #97

Post by TRANSPONDER »

POI wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:38 pm
1213 wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:40 am
POI wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:24 am ...I would imagine they would go down considerably. Don't you? If they go down considerably, would this not be 'for the better'?
I don't believe they would go down from current situation.
You do not think if everyone KNEW they were being watches and judged of their actions --- (murder, rape, theft), they would do it all the same? Really? Anyone who has ever committed murder, rape, and theft, always knows they are being watched, and are going to be held accountable?
1213 wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:40 am
POI wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:24 am...I no longer believe because I prayed for God's contact, for decades, and no such luck....
Why did you do so?
Because I was indoctrinated in the religion. I thought God existed, so I prayed to Him. After about 30+ years of feeling I was talking to myself, I started to question the faith; and began more extensive investigation(s).

1. So, is God playing hide and seek with me, or...
2. Am I too stupid to know He is actually contacting me, or...
3. Am I too plagued with evil to know He is/was calling on me?

If God answers your prayers, please pray for God to contact me, or, have God tell you something about me, so you can share that knowledge here with me? This will prove He speaks to you. Otherwise, I'm not so sure God speaks to you at all; if you claim He ever has?
The 'does God answer prayers?'discussion. This is always good (indeed, didn't we have one here?) because Jesus promises his followers (with a bit of weaving together of contradictory passages, in different times, places and contexts) that God will give the Faithful whatever they ask for in prayer.

Jesus says that with Faith as small as a mustard -seed you can uproot a mountain and have it splash into the sea or (if one insists on metaphor) a believer with a modicum of faith - or to make sure, a group of them, will pray for something and are guaranteed they'll get it. Ok, there's morality involved (assuming God's morality is anything like the one he gave us..which isn't always to be taken for granted in Bible apologetics). He isn't going to provide you with your neighbours car or his wife or his ass. But within reason, so long as it doesn't cut across morality, he hath promised that he will do it.

Except they can't. Even right at that time and place, they didn't have enough Faith to heal that boy and they couldn't anyway, because God wants that you should pray and fast before he'll do it for you.

But ok, we'll make it easy to provide proof of God, and that He answers prayer. I have had, let me say for several decades, a simple and easy test that does not offend any morals and would, if it works, instantly persuade me to become a Christian. In every case when I have proposed the test, the result has been silence. I don't mean no result in the test :D but refusal to mention it or excuses as to why 'God is not going to do that'. They are excusing why it won't work before they even try.

It doesn't seems to have struck then that they could say. 'Ok. I've done it. Please confirm that it worked'.

'It didn't'

'Well it did but you're obviously lying and saying that it didn't'.

'Why would I do that if proof of God is right in front of me?'

'Because you are a slave to Satan'.

Even though some have excused themselves by saying that I'd wriggle out of my promise even if it worked.

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Re: Why can't God be proven?

Post #98

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:53 pm
POI wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:38 pm ...
Because I was indoctrinated in the religion. I thought God existed, so I prayed to Him. After about 30+ years of feeling I was talking to myself, I started to question the faith; and began more extensive investigation(s).

1. So, is God playing hide and seek with me, or...
2. Am I too stupid to know He is actually contacting me, or...
3. Am I too plagued with evil to know He is/was calling on me?

If God answers your prayers, please pray for God to contact me, or, have God tell you something about me, so you can share that knowledge here with me? This will prove He speaks to you. Otherwise, I'm not so sure God speaks to you at all; if you claim He ever has?
Why do you want Him to contact you?

I think God speaks through the Bible. There is His message for all people. At the moment I don’t see it necessary to repeat it in some other way.
I again ask of you a direct request. And you again avoid the request. Please pray for God to heal my uncle. If He says no, please at least have Him tell you why? If you refuse again, I will just assume you lack faith in prayer all together?

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Re: Why can't God be proven?

Post #99

Post by JoeyKnothead »

otseng wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:24 am
nobspeople wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:24 am Yet, seems faith is all that it's offering, which isn't very loving at all to me and many.
Faith does not necessarily mean blind faith (absolutely no evidence). As I mentioned before with Dawkins scale, there are levels of evidence and levels of faith. So, no, faith is not all that it's offering.
But there are those that god knows that need more than talking in riddles, 'his word' with its inconsistencies, the lack of proof and the need to rely on 'faith'. God know this and does nothing.
I base my belief on more than riddles, and, if you can believe it, on actual verifiable, empirical evidence. I don't know how many threads I've participated in the S&R subforum arguing for Christianity, without even using the Bible as evidence.
Today and even back then, there were those who didn't believe.
Yes, many didn't believe, even his apostles doubted after he was resurrected!
But I can tell you, after searching for a long, long time, he hasn't shown proof to me one iota.
Maybe he just doesn't care about me?
Well, one suggestion is to get rid of the notion of "proof". As I argued, there's no way to have 100% certainty. I mean, do you claim to be an atheist? Do you have 100% certainty God does not exist?
Surely a reasonable and rational god'd preciate a reasonable and rational approach to him, and his created reality. otseng and other theists who don't teeter on every religious thought or claim must surely be the closest to that god's wishes in this respect.

This is kinda why I'd say blasphemous things about, or even to a god. If they're a reasonable, rational, loving god, surely they'd understand if I thought they existed, and we're worthy of it, I'd be asinging their praises. If I'm wrong, surely a reasonable and rational god'd see it ain't for malice, but me a broken reasonabler and rationaler.

Keep it up, y'all reasonable and rational theists, y'all're the closest we'll get to understanding a reasonable and rational god.
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Re: Why can't God be proven?

Post #100

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #99]
Surely a reasonable and rational god'd preciate a reasonable and rational approach to him, and his created reality.
One would think. However, some would say the christian god isn't reasonable or rational: creating people, putting them in a place where it knows they'd be tempted, 'leaving' the area, placing satan there knowing it would tempt them and they'd fail, then 'coming back' acting surprised and upset? Not a whole lot rational or reasonable about that. Yet, that's the god christians claim they follow. Maybe we should expect less reasonable and rational approaches and expect more akin to suicide bombers that inherit many virgins?
If they're a reasonable, rational, loving god, surely they'd understand if I thought they existed, and we're worthy of it, I'd be asinging their praises. If I'm wrong, surely a reasonable and rational god'd see it ain't for malice, but me a broken reasonabler and rationaler.
But that doesn't put butts in the seats, money in the pockets, nor does it foster followers. Fear and guilt do that. One would think you'd catch more flies with honey that kaka, but maybe not.

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