Is atheism lacking?

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historia
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Is atheism lacking?

Post #1

Post by historia »

This is an oft made point on this forum, but one I want to explore in a bit more depth:
Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:37 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:23 pm
If you don't believe that God exists, then that itself is a belief.
I lack belief in god/gods. Lack of belief is quite clearly not a belief.
I think we can all appreciate the case where a person might be ignorant of a particular topic and thus have no beliefs about it. That seems straight-forward.

But, if a person previously believed in X but now no longer believes in X, while spending time on an online forum debating X, it seems less straight-forward (to me anyway) to say that they simply "lack" belief in X. Even if that person is merely contending that there is insufficient evidence (for them, at least) to believe in X, surely we must conclude that constitutes a belief about X.


Question for debate: Is it accurate to say that atheists debating the existence of God on an online forum lack belief in God (or gods), or is there a more accurate way to describe their beliefs vis-a-vis God (or gods)?

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #101

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Tcg wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:49 am
brunumb wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:46 am
Not ambivalent at all. Are you suggesting that in some crisis I will suddenly become a believer and implore your God to help me? Too funny. The indoctrination didn't stick with me and it ain't coming back.
Indeed. Once you see the man, or really many men, behind the curtain there is no turning back.

Image


Tcg
And apparently, you are your own man behind the curtain. That might be preferrable to having other men pull the strings, but just the same, you are now at your self made pinnacle of achievement. That has to be a little depressing. Is that all there is?

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #102

Post by Tcg »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:43 am
Tcg wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:49 am
brunumb wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:46 am
Not ambivalent at all. Are you suggesting that in some crisis I will suddenly become a believer and implore your God to help me? Too funny. The indoctrination didn't stick with me and it ain't coming back.
Indeed. Once you see the man, or really many men, behind the curtain there is no turning back.

Image


Tcg
And apparently, you are your own man behind the curtain. That might be preferrable to having other men pull the strings, but just the same, you are now at your self made pinnacle of achievement. That has to be a little depressing. Is that all there is?
Reality is not depressing at all except to those who aren't willing to accept reality.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #103

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Tcg wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:31 am
William wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:24 am [Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #95]
Is it just me, or do so many theists have some imperative to declare for atheists what the atheist must, or does believe?
The confusion arises in part whereby folk calling themselves atheists make statements which are not always simply coming from 'lacking belief in god'.
Nope. That just represents the fact that atheism is nothing but the lack of belief in god/gods. Of course, those who lack belief in god/gods will have different opinions about other matters. It's no different from the fact that those who accept the perfectly unverifiable claim that god/gods exist agree on almost no other issues.
Exactly. It's taking one example and painting every atheist with that brush.

How bout we start saying all theists're hog kissers, would that be fair?

A- non
Theist- belief in a god or gods

Why so many theists insist on trying to put beliefs on atheists, when so many atheists have put the definition before em just goes to show facts mean nothing in the land of make believe.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #104

Post by TRANSPONDER »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:52 am
Tcg wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:31 am
William wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:24 am [Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #95]
Is it just me, or do so many theists have some imperative to declare for atheists what the atheist must, or does believe?
The confusion arises in part whereby folk calling themselves atheists make statements which are not always simply coming from 'lacking belief in god'.
Nope. That just represents the fact that atheism is nothing but the lack of belief in god/gods. Of course, those who lack belief in god/gods will have different opinions about other matters. It's no different from the fact that those who accept the perfectly unverifiable claim that god/gods exist agree on almost no other issues.
Exactly. It's taking one example and painting every atheist with that brush.

How bout we start saying all theists're hog kissers, would that be fair?

A- non
Theist- belief in a god or gods

Why so many theists insist on trying to put beliefs on atheists, when so many atheists have put the definition before em just goes to show facts mean nothing in the land of make believe.
Exactly. Atheists may hold different beliefs pr conclusions about a number of things. We do not have weekend meetings where atheist ministers tell us how to vote and collect money. About Why Some theists try to wish #beliefs' in atheists or rather atheism as a mindset or worldview (some have called it a 'Religion') might be a good threat -topic.

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #105

Post by historia »

Bust Nak wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:07 pm
historia wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:27 am
But the atheists on this forum are not babies. They have considered and rejected (or not accepted) the proposition that God exists. To doubt a proposition is, by definition, a belief. So the atheists here cannot rightly claim to simply "lack" belief in God.

Would you not agree?
Let dive in deeper. What does "belief in God" mean? Beliefs about God, or the very specific belief - "God exists?"

While I hold plenty of the former (not least, the belief that arguments for God's existence are faulty,) I can right state that I lack the latter.
I don't disagree. As I noted in the OP, the atheist's opinion regarding the question of God's existence is surely a belief about God, as you just noted here.

So if you say "I don't believe in God," and someone else responds, "that is your belief," they are not wrong, as your opinion concerning (the concept of) God constitutes a belief, right?

What I'm challenging here is the contention that the atheist simply lacks belief in God, as if their opinion regarding the existence of God is not a belief at all, as some seem to imagine.

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #106

Post by William »

The confusion arises in part whereby folk calling themselves atheists make statements which are not always simply coming from 'lacking belief in god'.
That just represents the fact that atheism is nothing but the lack of belief in god/gods. Of course, those who lack belief in god/gods will have different opinions about other matters.
Why do folk who just lack belief in gods, call themselves "Atheists" when they could just call themselves "Agnostics", since the position of Agnosticism also lacks belief in gods?

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #107

Post by William »

[Replying to historia in post #105]
What I'm challenging here is the contention that the atheist simply lacks belief in God, as if their opinion regarding the existence of God is not a belief at all, as some seem to imagine.
Yeah - what's up with that? If it were simply a case of lacking belief, the position of agnosticism already covers that in the lacking.

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historia
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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #108

Post by historia »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:26 pm
An atheist, by definition is someone who lacks belief in a god or gods. Full stop.
Tcg wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:31 am
atheism is nothing but the lack of belief in god/gods.
This is where I think there is some confusion. Atheism is not just lack of belief in God.

The Wikipedia article on atheism provides a fuller definition that I think is quite useful:
Wikipedia wrote:
Atheism, in the broadest sense, is (a) an absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is (b) a rejection of the belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically (c) the position that there are no deities.
This maps neatly onto what I've been saying throughout the discussion:

Those who are ignorant of the proposition that God exists are atheists only in the sense of (a). Whereas those who have considered the proposition that God exists and chosen not to accept it are atheists in the sense of both (a) and (b). While those who believe that God does not exist are atheists in the sense of (a), (b), and (c).

Since the atheists on this forum are clearly not ignorant of the proposition that God exists, they cannot rightly claim to be atheists only in the sense of (a), they have to also be atheists in the sense of (b). And since (b) entails an opinion or attitude regarding the proposition that God exists then they have, by definition, a belief about (the concept of) God.

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #109

Post by TRANSPONDER »

William wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:57 pm
The confusion arises in part whereby folk calling themselves atheists make statements which are not always simply coming from 'lacking belief in god'.
That just represents the fact that atheism is nothing but the lack of belief in god/gods. Of course, those who lack belief in god/gods will have different opinions about other matters.
Why do folk who just lack belief in gods, call themselves "Atheists" when they could just call themselves "Agnostics", since the position of Agnosticism also lacks belief in gods?
Because agnosticism is a knowledge position (lack of) and tells us nothing about the belief - position. Regarding theism, one may believe while not knowing (theist) or not believe while not knowing (a- theist). Agnosticism would logically suggest non -belief, but as we know ;) not having a good reason to believe in a god does not mean not believing in a god, because Faith is often more important than reasons.

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #110

Post by William »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #109]
Why do folk who just lack belief in gods, call themselves "Atheists" when they could just call themselves "Agnostics", since the position of Agnosticism also lacks belief in gods?
Because agnosticism is a knowledge position (lack of) and tells us nothing about the belief - position.
How is that any different from 'lack of belief in gods' as being a supposed 'knowledge position' just because atheists say so?

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the description that agnosticism is a 'knowledge position' appears to be misinformation as it is a matter of not knowing either way. rather than being in a position of knowing, as 'knowledge position' infers.

My question "Why do folk who just lack belief in gods, call themselves "Atheists" when they could just call themselves "Agnostics"" remains unanswered;

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