Is atheism lacking?

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historia
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Is atheism lacking?

Post #1

Post by historia »

This is an oft made point on this forum, but one I want to explore in a bit more depth:
Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:37 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:23 pm
If you don't believe that God exists, then that itself is a belief.
I lack belief in god/gods. Lack of belief is quite clearly not a belief.
I think we can all appreciate the case where a person might be ignorant of a particular topic and thus have no beliefs about it. That seems straight-forward.

But, if a person previously believed in X but now no longer believes in X, while spending time on an online forum debating X, it seems less straight-forward (to me anyway) to say that they simply "lack" belief in X. Even if that person is merely contending that there is insufficient evidence (for them, at least) to believe in X, surely we must conclude that constitutes a belief about X.


Question for debate: Is it accurate to say that atheists debating the existence of God on an online forum lack belief in God (or gods), or is there a more accurate way to describe their beliefs vis-a-vis God (or gods)?

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #121

Post by brunumb »

William wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:06 pm That extra bit you added changes the definition of atheist, from 'someone who lacks belief in gods' into 'someone who lacks belief in gods because of claims that god exists'.
Because? So what? Whatever the reason, they are atheists because they do not believe in gods. They are not theists.
William wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:06 pm Agnostics simply lack belief in gods. They have no reason as to why they lack belief in gods, because that is the default for being agnostic. Reasons which come along that the person accepts or rejects are the very things which move the individual to one bias [atheism] or the other [theism].
The reasons are irrelevant. If you believe in gods, you have a belief in gods, you are a theist. If you do not believe in gods, you lack a belief in gods, you are an atheist.

There are people who identify as agnostic atheists or agnostic theists. Are you going to tell them to reclassify themselves? To what end? It seems to me that the agenda here is to push atheists into a box where the theists can somehow dump a burden of proof onto them. They need to do that because they have so far failed miserably to meet the burden of proof for their god claims. Why else would any of this labeling issue matter?
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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #122

Post by William »

[Replying to brunumb in post #121]

To me the solution is simple enough and I use it in relation to religious folk as well.

It doesn't matter what the person is calling themselves. Identify them by what and how they are arguing.

For example, if I assume an atheist lacks belief in gods, I don't need to assume that they are atheists because of what they are arguing, but I can refer to their position as either non-theist or anti-theist, depending on the weakness or strength of their conviction and how they broadcast that.

Not only does it deal with any confusion, but it also means I don't give anyone the opportunity to argue 'that is not what a {_________} is'.

The question for debate...;

Is it accurate to say that atheists debating the existence of X on an online forum lack belief in X (or gods), or is there a more accurate way to describe their beliefs vis-a-vis X (or gods)?

...becomes redundant.

Likewise, similar questions asked of theists...;

Is it accurate to say that theists debating the existence of God on an online forum have belief in God (or gods), or is there a more accurate way to describe their beliefs vis-a-vis God (or gods)?

...also become redundant.

Just take folk as they come regardless of what they call themselves. If they are aggressively anti-atheist or anti-theist, remember that has little relevance if any to whatever position they claim to hold, be they agnosticism, atheism or theism [re the question of creation/creator].

Which is another way of saying, what a person claims their position is, is not necessarily seen in how they are behaving, and so to avoid confusion, just remember that simple little thing.

My recommendation is that one avoid saying "[________] is what an atheist is", or "[__________] is what a theist is".

IF there are no objections from either side re the above, I am out.

Thanks for all the comments.

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #123

Post by TRANSPONDER »

William wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:15 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #117]
Even given this is just another definition of agnosticism, it explains what? about atheism, or why folk choose to call themselves atheists instead of agnostics, when clearly if humans cannot know of the existence of anything beyond the phenomena of their experience, this would have to include lacking belief in gods?
It implies that, not knowing, one would logically have to not believe until they do know - which is what atheism is, and intrinsically, all that it is.
No. That is what agnosticism is, if indeed you are using the words 'believe' and 'know' interchangeably.

But as clearly can be seen in this thread, we have atheists giving different definitions as to what atheism is and that is the root of the confusion, not non-atheists trying to impose different interpretations of atheism in order to put atheists into specific boxes. to meet with their specific agendas...

...clearly it is atheists themselves who are putting atheism into different boxes, by not being able to agree together as to what atheism is.
No I don't.belief is separate from knowledge. Though it logically should arise from what one knows. If one does not have knowledge they say 'I do not know', which is what atheists do in - say - the cosmic origins claim. If they are asked 'what do you believe did it?' they would say 'probably natural causes'. Because that is what science has found all the time (default hypothesis) . A theists might say 'God', and they might give reasons why (the infinite regression paradox, for example). But when that fails (as it does) to make a case for a god, then they won't give up the God - belief, because it is Faith -based, not based on what is known. So far as I have seen, the atheists here (as elsewhere) have been saying the same thing - non belief in God (the god -claim) or not having a belief, or lacking a belief in the (god -claim. It's all different ways of saying the same thing. And while the situation of the atheist may change (e.g they haven't thought about it or perhaps they have) the definition (no god -belief) remains the same. It looks rather to me that it is those critical (or trying to be) of atheism (for whatever reason) that are trying to put it into different boxes, when atheists (or atheism as a definition) is the same thing all the way.

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #124

Post by TRANSPONDER »

brunumb wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:39 pm
William wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:06 pm That extra bit you added changes the definition of atheist, from 'someone who lacks belief in gods' into 'someone who lacks belief in gods because of claims that god exists'.
Because? So what? Whatever the reason, they are atheists because they do not believe in gods. They are not theists.
William wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:06 pm Agnostics simply lack belief in gods. They have no reason as to why they lack belief in gods, because that is the default for being agnostic. Reasons which come along that the person accepts or rejects are the very things which move the individual to one bias [atheism] or the other [theism].
The reasons are irrelevant. If you believe in gods, you have a belief in gods, you are a theist. If you do not believe in gods, you lack a belief in gods, you are an atheist.

There are people who identify as agnostic atheists or agnostic theists. Are you going to tell them to reclassify themselves? To what end? It seems to me that the agenda here is to push atheists into a box where the theists can somehow dump a burden of proof onto them. They need to do that because they have so far failed miserably to meet the burden of proof for their god claims. Why else would any of this labeling issue matter?
There are many reasons why the definition of atheism or what it is comes under attack. To make it a faith -claim and even a religion. To shift - as you say - the burden of proof onto us by making atheism a claim. To make it illogical and even argue that 'atheism cannot exist'. Or it may be the 'one shot win' which appears to be (when I have seen it) 'atheists are wrong about that - they must be wrong about everything else!'.

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #125

Post by Tcg »

brunumb wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:39 pm
There are people who identify as agnostic atheists or agnostic theists. Are you going to tell them to reclassify themselves? To what end? It seems to me that the agenda here is to push atheists into a box where the theists can somehow dump a burden of proof onto them. They need to do that because they have so far failed miserably to meet the burden of proof for their god claims. Why else would any of this labeling issue matter?
Let's examine the box We Are VENOM tried to push me into:
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:10 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:37 pm
I lack belief in god/gods. Lack of belief is quite clearly not a belief.
"God does not exist"

Belief^.

Not surprisingly historia didn't include this exchange in his O.P. It was of course quite clearly an example of a theist attempting to push me into a box I have made no claims of being in nor do I identify with. Why was this Straw Man effort left out of the O.P.? I'll let the reader decide.

Image

Regardless it remains a Straw Man argument even if one relies on the words of another to make it as we see taking place in this thread.


Tcg
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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #126

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Tcg wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:57 pm Let's examine the box We Are VENOM tried to push me into:
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:10 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:37 pm I lack belief in god/gods. Lack of belief is quite clearly not a belief.
"God does not exist"
Belief^.
Not surprisingly historia didn't include this exchange in his O.P. It was of course quite clearly an example of a theist attempting to push me into a box I have made no claims of being in nor do I identify with.
A fine example of a theist trying to declare what others believe.

What I find most frustrating is to see theists I once considered quite capable trying to stoop to such a tactic.
Why was this Straw Man effort left out of the O.P.? I'll let the reader decide.
Interesting omission.

One wonders if it ain't the commonly cited ignoring, or dismissal of any evidence contrary to one's "deeply held religious belief". I use that term specifically as it relates to an excuse to demonize, discriminate, and all such as that against anyone the theist considers "evil".
Image
Regardless it remains a Straw Man argument even if one relies on the words of another to make it as we see taking place in this thread.
Wasn't it the strawman that didn't have a brain?

This issue is important to me because it climbs the ladder to the slide of accusing atheists of immorality, and all manner of malfeasance. We see time and again the theist who declares atheists "hate God". A god we don't even believe exists.

A- non
Theism- belief a god or gods exist

That some theists can't come to terms with that is sound indication we shouldn't trust any definition, nor any claim they might ever present.
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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #127

Post by Tcg »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:23 am
Tcg wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:57 pm Let's examine the box We Are VENOM tried to push me into:
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:10 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:37 pm I lack belief in god/gods. Lack of belief is quite clearly not a belief.
"God does not exist"
Belief^.
Not surprisingly historia didn't include this exchange in his O.P. It was of course quite clearly an example of a theist attempting to push me into a box I have made no claims of being in nor do I identify with.
A fine example of a theist trying to declare what others believe.

What I find most frustrating is to see theists I once considered quite capable trying to stoop to such a tactic.
Why was this Straw Man effort left out of the O.P.? I'll let the reader decide.
Interesting omission.

One wonders if it ain't the commonly cited ignoring, or dismissal of any evidence contrary to one's "deeply held religious belief". I use that term specifically as it relates to an excuse to demonize, discriminate, and all such as that against anyone the theist considers "evil".
Image
Regardless it remains a Straw Man argument even if one relies on the words of another to make it as we see taking place in this thread.
Wasn't it the strawman that didn't have a brain?

This issue is important to me because it climbs the ladder to the slide of accusing atheists of immorality, and all manner of malfeasance. We see time and again the theist who declares atheists "hate God". A god we don't even believe exists.

A- non
Theism- belief a god or gods exist

That some theists can't come to terms with that is sound indication we shouldn't trust any definition, nor any claim they might ever present.
Yep. I don't try to tell theists what they believe. If they identify as a theist, I accept their word for it. If they claim a belief in god/gods that's fine with me. For some odd reason some theists refuse to accept that I lack the belief they possess. I don't know, does my lack of belief threaten their belief so they have to assert that I don't actually lack belief? It is a very odd situation.

"Dude, if you lack belief in god/gods it means that you believe god/gods don't exist."

'No, it means I lack belief in god/gods.'

"Your absence of belief is a belief!"

Pure absurdity. I don't suggest that theists' belief in god/gods is a lack of belief. Why do some think the reverse is valid?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #128

Post by brunumb »

Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:47 am Pure absurdity. I don't suggest that theists' belief in god/gods is a lack of belief. Why do some think the reverse is valid?
You're not doing it right. Their belief is simply a lack of non-belief. They are a-atheists. :D
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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #129

Post by Tcg »

brunumb wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:06 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:47 am Pure absurdity. I don't suggest that theists' belief in god/gods is a lack of belief. Why do some think the reverse is valid?
You're not doing it right. Their belief is simply a lack of non-belief. They are a-atheists. :D
You know, I've heard that as an actually argument before. Was it here or on those old Amazon forums? I don't remember. In any case I guess that makes me an a-a-atheist. It's starting to sound like a Rodney Dangerfield routine or was it some other comedian that stuttered?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Is atheism lacking?

Post #130

Post by JoeyKnothead »

brunumb wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:06 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:47 am Pure absurdity. I don't suggest that theists' belief in god/gods is a lack of belief. Why do some think the reverse is valid?
You're not doing it right. Their belief is simply a lack of non-belief. They are a-atheists. :D
What if I lack belief in their lack of belief in my lack of belief regarding their belief?
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