Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

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POI
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Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

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Post by POI »

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

Post #61

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to theophile in post #60]

Thanks and I appreciate your well worded response.
While I can accept your personal POV, there are other POVs that's just as 'correct', as it's all personal (not that you were saying anything else - just an observation on my part).
So I still think there is a point to be made about how we, in modern times, conceptualize God, versus how God is described in some of the seminal biblical texts like Gen 1.
Hyper interesting concept and one I'd agree with. It seems god evolves across times and across geographic regions. My in-laws are South American and consider themselves Catholics. Catholics here, in North America, would see their Catholic views as more 'pagan' as they're mixed with more superstition than their North American counterparts.
Likewise, my grandparents were taught, via the bible, inter-racial mixing is a sin, where nowadays, it's not that big of a deal. While these concepts 'aren't god', it refers to the god ideal as a whole.
omnipotence which literally shows up nowhere in Genesis. (English translations may refer to 'God Almighty' but at the same time admit this is not accurate, and the source word, El Shaddai, is highly controversial in its meaning.)
I think this point to poor teaching by uneducated (not an insult) people by those with bias and their own agenda. I think this is a human concept and can't be totally avoided (in other words, it's not just religion that has this issue). Humans are humans complete with flaws, both known and unknown.

TBH, I've never encountered a christian in person that didn't think god was all powerful, knowing, creating, present, whatever. I find it fascinating those people exist!!
Have faith in the writers. But I would say it is more a matter of everyone doing their homework.
People have said this before (the homework). But I can't agree simply because not everyone has the same access to references. It seems to me, a supreme being (all knowing for those who wish it) would know this and make an effort to counteract that. In other words, it would provide to everyone all that's needed - no 'homework' required.
None of this frees us of the responsibility of critical thought, and doing our best to tap into the deeper threads being laid out across biblical texts.
Critical thought is always needed in life. But that triggers 2 thoughts to me:
1) oft time faith replaces thought, critical or otherwise and
2) what one considers critical other may not. I've lost count how many times two people argue over being 'correct' in their thinking and understand and come to the exact opposite views.
Well, imagine you now have a world filled with all kinds of life as Gen 1 depicts. It's going to get a bit unruly, right? Some plant species (what we classify as weeds for example) may start to strangle out others. Some animal species may become invasive in an area to the detriment of others. So there is real work involved in ruling over it all to ensure that a balance and peace takes hold. Where lions can lay down with lambs, so to speak, and different kinds of life can simply be, in relative harmony.
One would say that. And the logical person would think that. But many believers say that was only an issue after the fall.
And this is God's plan. God is the one who says to us in Gen 1 to fill the earth and subdue it. That is our overarching mandate and goal, and what we should evaluate all action against. (Anything contrary to this, I would argue, is evil.)
Again, appreciate your well worded response and POV.
Personally, I don't see any plan (or at least, a good one, as I'd expect from a god). That's not saying there isn't one, of course. I try to remain open to possibilities. From the dogma I had shoved down my throat for years and years, this isn't the case. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, just making a statement. I find it interesting the POV of others.

Thanks for the discussion! It was enjoyable (which isn't something I can say often here).
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

Post #62

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to POI in post #59]
A) If the fall of man, is what brought evil into the world, then did natural evil exist prior to man?
I've always wondered if the fall create evil and 'jack up' god's perfect world (as many claim) how can humanity be this powerful? To 'jack up' a supreme being's/creator's world?
If humanity DIDN'T create evil with the fall, then god did. But some say that's not possible.
So we're left with humanity being powerful enough to create evil and interrupt (at the very least) god's plan, god allowed humanity to create evil and interrupt its plan, or god directly created evil.
In any option, this, to me, doesn't promote a worthy being to be worshipped in any way. Feared yes. Loved and worshipped? Not even remotely.
B) Since humans are the focus, via Gen 1:26-28, why only bring them into the mix billions of years later?
Some wouldn't likely say billion, but days or hours. That aside, I've always wondered if god is 'so great' (perfect, many would say) why did create animals first then people? Seems like its focus was, well, out of focus. Why not make people first? And then nothing after that? Especially if god knew suffering would eventually come thanks to humanity's fall. That is, assuming it knew. Which, if it didn't, doesn't make that as impressive of a deity as people would like it to be. God would be nothing but a more advanced, likely mortal, creature. Not a god.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

Post #63

Post by theophile »

POI wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:44 am
theophile wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:02 am On POIs question, the answer is simple. We were made in Gen 1 to take care of it all and continue God's work. To take on the mantle so to speak
This does not address my question. My question was (paraphrased) - Why did God create other 'creatures' millions/billions of years before 'man', if humans are the 'focus'? --- By 'focus', I mean humans are the ones for which God will interact, and later come back in 'human form', to 'save'? Humans cannot do "god's word", as you put it, if we did not arrive on the scene until a billion(s) of years later. Prior to this, it's safe to assume animals were subject to 'natural evil', which is curious as many here are arguing that 'evil' was not introduced until the fall of man?.?.?.?.?
Gen 1 isn't science / history, so I'm not going to touch the millions/billions of years bit. But my response did address your question, i.e., humankind is not needed until the world is filled with different kinds of life and in need of a caretaker. Hence we are last in the order. We aren't needed until there is a world to manage.

Better to think of the ordering in Gen 1 like an artist painting. First God puts the foundation layers in place. Then God overlays it with plants and animals. Then God adds humans to take care of it all...
POI wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:44 am
theophile wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:02 amSo it's not that we are 'highest priority.'
Does this mean Jesus came back to 'save' other creatures? Does this mean Jesus/god regularly interacts with other creatures? Does this mean the Bible focuses on Jesus/God's interaction with other creatures more-so than humans? Does this mean "God made other creatures in His image" - (Gen. 1-26)? Regardless of what verbiage you wish to use, in place of "priority", Jesus/God's focus is to 'redeem' humans, and no others. Logic would tell the reader that humans are the highest 'priority', in comparison to all other creatures. Thus, I disagree with your logic.
Again, the highest priority, i.e., what we see God doing for most of Gen 1 and what God then calls us to keep doing, is filling the world with different kinds of life (and subduing it). That is the highest priority: making the world a place where all kinds of life can flourish.

Being created in the image of God is not to say we are higher on the totem pole or have special privileges. It is to emphasize that our job is to keep doing what God has been doing, and to make sure we're 'made' in a way suited to do it (i.e., in the image of God).

We are just a tool if you want to think of it that way, i.e., a control mechanism that God puts in place to achieve the 'highest priority'. Jesus included.
POI wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:44 am
theophile wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:02 am The 'highest priority' is filling the earth with all the kinds of life that Gen 1 lays out and subduing it (see Gen 1:26-28).
The provided passage states that God made humans in His image. Since no other creatures fit that description, that means were are the 'highest priority'. In that passage, God also states humans are to rule over other animals. Hence, again, we are higher priority.
Our 'rule' over the animals is in the context of our mandate to fill the earth and subdue it. It is to say what I said above: someone needs to take care of everything God made to make sure the different kinds of life are living in harmony and can flourish. Someone needs to make sure the lions don't eat all the lambs!

It's not to indicate a hierarchy or a special privilege, but a job. It's a responsibility we've been given.

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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

Post #64

Post by POI »

theophile wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:24 pm
POI wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:44 am
theophile wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:02 am On POIs question, the answer is simple. We were made in Gen 1 to take care of it all and continue God's work. To take on the mantle so to speak
This does not address my question. My question was (paraphrased) - Why did God create other 'creatures' millions/billions of years before 'man', if humans are the 'focus'? --- By 'focus', I mean humans are the ones for which God will interact, and later come back in 'human form', to 'save'? Humans cannot do "god's word", as you put it, if we did not arrive on the scene until a billion(s) of years later. Prior to this, it's safe to assume animals were subject to 'natural evil', which is curious as many here are arguing that 'evil' was not introduced until the fall of man?.?.?.?.?
Gen 1 isn't science / history, so I'm not going to touch the millions/billions of years bit. But my response did address your question, i.e., humankind is not needed until the world is filled with different kinds of life and in need of a caretaker. Hence we are last in the order. We aren't needed until there is a world to manage.

Better to think of the ordering in Gen 1 like an artist painting. First God puts the foundation layers in place. Then God overlays it with plants and animals. Then God adds humans to take care of it all...
This is why I asked Tam, 1213, and JW if they ascribed to OEC or YEC? Which one do you ascribe to? I have a hunch it's the former (OEC), meaning you too reference science -- and all science comes to the same conclusion that the earth is 'old' and animals lived a long time, prior to intelligent humans. Assuming you ARE an OEC, I will proceed with my response...

In regards to you stating "Gen 1 isn't science"... I would agree, it's anti-science, in that the assertions made there contradict the later discoveries made by science. You may argue the authors didn't write these Verses to demonstrate how the world was formed, for which I then ask... Which parts are meant to be taken at face value, verses not?

And in your response to "humankind is not needed until the world is filled with different kinds of life and in need of a caretaker."...

1. Were these creatures subjected to any 'evil' before the fall of man? If so, did God take care of them in the interim? ;)
2. I doubt humans can be caretakers to the planet without God's help? Sure, I see we help some, but what about the ones for which we cannot, due to 'natural or moral evil'? Does God fill in where we fall short? If not, then I guess God set a failed system into place; IF the objective is for humans to be 'caretakers'. Unintended negligence, due to being unaware of many 'evil' situations, hardly qualifies.... Or does it?
theophile wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:24 pm
POI wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:44 am
theophile wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:02 amSo it's not that we are 'highest priority.'
Does this mean Jesus came back to 'save' other creatures? Does this mean Jesus/god regularly interacts with other creatures? Does this mean the Bible focuses on Jesus/God's interaction with other creatures more-so than humans? Does this mean "God made other creatures in His image" - (Gen. 1-26)? Regardless of what verbiage you wish to use, in place of "priority", Jesus/God's focus is to 'redeem' humans, and no others. Logic would tell the reader that humans are the highest 'priority', in comparison to all other creatures. Thus, I disagree with your logic.
Again, the highest priority, i.e., what we see God doing for most of Gen 1 and what God then calls us to keep doing, is filling the world with different kinds of life (and subduing it). That is the highest priority: making the world a place where all kinds of life can flourish.

Being created in the image of God is not to say we are higher on the totem pole or have special privileges. It is to emphasize that our job is to keep doing what God has been doing, and to make sure we're 'made' in a way suited to do it (i.e., in the image of God).

We are just a tool if you want to think of it that way, i.e., a control mechanism that God puts in place to achieve the 'highest priority'. Jesus included.
- So He takes million/billions of years for it to develop; and in such time, many are subject to mass amounts of 'natural evil'? Why?

- And yes, we do apparently receive 'special privileges'. We can be saved. Others are not ;) If the others cannot be saved, why subject them to 'evil' in the first place? Their demise will likely merely be a lifelong period of extreme survival, pain, terror, suffering, and then die -- and will not be afforded the opportunity to aspire to anything after their death. Just a short life of plausible "misery"... Humans cannot protect most animals/insects from such a fate anyhow. We are vastly outnumbered, as well as having many other 'obligations' beside "animal care" alone. And more-over, humans did not have the ability to do so for millions of years prior to us arriving on the scene regardless.
theophile wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:24 pm
POI wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:44 am
theophile wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:02 am The 'highest priority' is filling the earth with all the kinds of life that Gen 1 lays out and subduing it (see Gen 1:26-28).
The provided passage states that God made humans in His image. Since no other creatures fit that description, that means were are the 'highest priority'. In that passage, God also states humans are to rule over other animals. Hence, again, we are higher priority.
Our 'rule' over the animals is in the context of our mandate to fill the earth and subdue it. It is to say what I said above: someone needs to take care of everything God made to make sure the different kinds of life are living in harmony and can flourish. Someone needs to make sure the lions don't eat all the lambs!

It's not to indicate a hierarchy or a special privilege, but a job. It's a responsibility we've been given.
- Who's responsibility was it to be caretakers prior to human existence? I would assume it was God's? I now see us taking care of some animals. Did God do a better job before He created us to take over? Or did 'natural evil' not exist until humans messed things up?

- Did 'natural evil' exist before humans? If so, this also contradicts Genesis, unless you wish to ignore this part too?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

Post #65

Post by POI »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:22 pm [Replying to POI in post #59]
A) If the fall of man, is what brought evil into the world, then did natural evil exist prior to man?
I've always wondered if the fall create evil and 'jack up' god's perfect world (as many claim) how can humanity be this powerful? To 'jack up' a supreme being's/creator's world?
If humanity DIDN'T create evil with the fall, then god did. But some say that's not possible.
So we're left with humanity being powerful enough to create evil and interrupt (at the very least) god's plan, god allowed humanity to create evil and interrupt its plan, or god directly created evil.
In any option, this, to me, doesn't promote a worthy being to be worshipped in any way. Feared yes. Loved and worshipped? Not even remotely.
B) Since humans are the focus, via Gen 1:26-28, why only bring them into the mix billions of years later?
Some wouldn't likely say billion, but days or hours. That aside, I've always wondered if god is 'so great' (perfect, many would say) why did create animals first then people? Seems like its focus was, well, out of focus. Why not make people first? And then nothing after that? Especially if god knew suffering would eventually come thanks to humanity's fall. That is, assuming it knew. Which, if it didn't, doesn't make that as impressive of a deity as people would like it to be. God would be nothing but a more advanced, likely mortal, creature. Not a god.
Or maybe when you read the Bible, the authors for which one reads, demonstrates they might have merely interjected their own limited thoughts. Which would account for why one can come to the conclusion that 'God" is nothing more than a powerful mortal.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

Post #66

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:11 am I have another follow up question for 1213, Tam, JW, and any other theist interested....

Since humans are God's highest priority, verses all other living things on earth, why create 'creatures' to roam the earth for millions/billions of years, prior to humans being created?
Sorry, I have no reason to believe animals roamed billions of years. And the reason, Bible tells God saw it is good, what He created. That is all that I know about the reasons.

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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

Post #67

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:36 pm
POI wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:11 am I have another follow up question for 1213, Tam, JW, and any other theist interested....

Since humans are God's highest priority, verses all other living things on earth, why create 'creatures' to roam the earth for millions/billions of years, prior to humans being created?
Sorry, I have no reason to believe animals roamed billions of years. And the reason, Bible tells God saw it is good, what He created. That is all that I know about the reasons.
Would it be possible to pick up where we left off, in post #42 (i.e.):

So before "the fall', all carnivores were vegetarians, volcanoes did not erupt, no hurricanes, no forest fires, all animals only died peacefully in their sleep at a right old age or lived until the fall of man, none died from starvation, no animal ever injured themselves, male animals never physically competed with each other for mates, Adam and Eve would not have been scared of any predators - (because there weren't any), no extreme heat or cold temperatures existed, etc.......?

What did parasites eat?
What did dinosaurs eat?
What did large wild cats eat?
What did snakes eat?
What did insects eat?
Who created disease?

I'll stop here....
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

Post #68

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:47 pm

Would it be possible to pick up where we left off, in post #42 (i.e.):

So before "the fall', all carnivores were vegetarians ... all animals only died peacefully in their sleep at a right old age .. none died from starvation[/color], no animal ever injured themselves, male animals never physically competed with each other for mates, Adam and Eve would not have been scared of any predators - (because there weren't any ......?

If we for the sake of argument begin with the supposition of the existence of YHWH which I presume we are since his decisions are the basis for the original question, then I see no reason to doubt He was capable of originally putting in order a world where animals did not needlessly suffer due to sickness, disease or lack of resources.

As for what animals ate we can but speculate, but even today many wild animals are in fact herbores (as were a number of the huge dinasaurs). All kinds of species are capable of living togeter in harmony, and many species of animals we generally fear such as sharks and snakes are in fact quite harmless. Whatever the situation was in Eden the bible narrative has Adam and Eve showing no fear of any of the animals they came in contact with.

ISAIAH 11: 6-9

The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb, And with the young goat the leopard will lie down,And the calf and the lion* and the fattened animal will all be together; And a little boy will lead them. The cow and the bear will feed together, and their young will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the bull. The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra, and a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake. They will not cause any harm Or any ruin in all my holy mountain ....
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

Post #69

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:39 pm
POI wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:47 pm

Would it be possible to pick up where we left off, in post #42 (i.e.):

So before "the fall', all carnivores were vegetarians ... all animals only died peacefully in their sleep at a right old age .. none died from starvation[/color], no animal ever injured themselves, male animals never physically competed with each other for mates, Adam and Eve would not have been scared of any predators - (because there weren't any ......?

What did parasites eat?
What did dinosaurs eat?
What did large wild cats eat?
What did snakes eat?
What did insects eat?
Who created disease?

I'll stop here....
POI wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:54 pm
Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering?

If we for the saké of argument begin with the supposition of the existence of YHWH which I presume we are since his decisions are the basis for the original question, then I see no reason to doubt He was capable of originally putting in order a world where animals did not needlessly suffer through lack of provisions.

As for what animals ate we can but speculate, but the bible does promise future paradise where animals live in harmony and humans have no reason to fear them.
Thank you for your response, but you failed to address my prior question directed to you. Are you a YEC or an OEC? From there, I will then have a basis for a more suitable response.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

Post #70

Post by POI »

2nd response to JW:

In case you do not respond, regarding YEC/OEC, which I'm starting to notice you often do not; allow me to take the liberty in forwarding this discussion along:

http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses ... sm-belief/ (i.e.):

"Although Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in creation, we are not antiscience. We believe that true science and the Bible are compatible."

Hence, if you are not antiscience, then paleontology alone demonstrates that plenty of 'natural evil' prevailed, prior to the onset of humans. How would this be possible if the Bible tells us the 'fall of man' is what caused "evil" to enter into the world?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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