Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[tam]

Peace to you,

The world was different before the fall, before the world and all in it was made subject to Death. Not sure how that would have looked (or how long before sin and death entered the world affecting the evolution of creatures that now had to compete for survival, with limited resources).

Assumes facts not in evidence. All you have presented is nothing more than speculation. The only way death became a natural part of this world from a biblical point of view would have been through the direct intervention of God.

But that is not accurate.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—



From a biblical point of view, death entered the world through sin, which entered the world through the one man (Adam).

It is also from a biblical point of view that the world was different BEFORE Adam ate of the tree of knowing good(life) and bad(death).

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.


This was not true previous to that time.

He did not behave as a loving and caring parent in any part of the garden of Eden scenario.

Sure He did:

1 - gave them life
2 - gave them life without sickness, mourning, death, injury
3 - gave them (adam and eve) one another for love and companionship
4 - gave them dominion over the earth (what they chose to do with that is on them, not God)
5 - provided a home for them and food to eat
6 - warned them against what would cause them harm (told them what not to do... and why not to do it)
7 - after said warning, trusted them to make their own choice
8 - allowed them to suffer the consequences of their actions (discipline/teaching) - which is never easy, but is designed to refine a person, to bring out good - though even then He showed mercy and ensured that they did not die on that very day, and could in fact yet receive eternal life.
9 - already had a plan in place to ensure that their children (even Adam and Eve) could one day return and receive eternal life
10 - He still maintained a relationship with them and their children, even though they could no longer be in the spiritual realm.

That's ten just off the top of my head.

And 11 (though this does not happen in the Garden of Eden story, God had already intended it)... God sacrificed His own son to redeem/save them (and their children) from the very Death they subjected the world (and all in the world) TO.



Peace again.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

No problem at all. God may have morally sufficient reasons for permitting ANY suffering. Now, if you feel as if God's reasons aren't sufficient, then you and God simply disagree...and the one with the gold makes the rules .

God is the one with the gold.

Next..

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #41]

In other words, it was just an opinion with nothing to back it.

Why would you say that when you, yourself, offer opinions as 'truth' and 'fact'?

Are you agreeing or disagreeing that it was just an opinion with nothing to back it?

If I have offered an opinion (with nothing to back it), by all means, point it out. I will at least attempt to back it. I do not offer my opinions as 'truth' or 'fact' though.

This is the world god allowed simply by being god and all knowing - nobspeople

I responded to that.

I never said you didn't respond to that.
Do you not see I simply stated that that's the opinion of many, not fact, and that some don't agree with it?

I'm not sure you stated that, but I do understand. It does not change the fact that my response was based on what you had said.

It does mean that He knows what is needed (and when) to bring about His promise (which is no more suffering, or mourning, or death).

If it's all knowing, yes.

And that was my point.

But that doesn't mean it's not stopping suffering when it could AND still get the end result it wants. Or or or... change the end result to benefit those suffering - the innocent suffering that it allows in its world RIGHT NOW, not 'in his time'.
Making that claim (in his time) is excusing god for what it can change RIGHT NOW. Do you not see that? Or do you not want to see that because it flies in the face of your dogma?

See below (re: cause and effect).

I think when people say this they are speaking more of a fantasy genie in a bottle,

Great that you have that opinion, which you've shown all too often your eager to chastise others of having.

I don't chastise people for having opinions. But if there is nothing to back those opinions, then they might be fairly meaningless.

I think when people say this they are speaking more of a fantasy genie in a bottle, where nothing is connected to anything else, there is no such thing as 'cause and effect' or 'action and reaction'.

Can you point to anyone making such a claim (nothing is connected and there's no such thins as 'cause and effect'? Or is this simply another opinion?

This goes directly to your claim that God could change something... and still have the exact same outcome. You can't know that.

That is not the reality that we live in. In fact, who would want to live in that reality? There would be no order, no security, no reason, even God's promises and covenants could not be trusted.

Many things to address here:
Do you know what reality we live in? Prove it. We will all wait.

We live in a reality with cause and effect; action and reaction. These are laws of our reality. Do you disagree?

In the meantime:
Why would there be no order, security or reason? Prove that to be true. We will all wait.

There would be no order, security, or reason, because nothing would be trustworthy, we would have no idea what would happen in response to what we do. God could say one thing and then not do it. How could we then trust His word, His promises? Showing mercy is one thing - that is part of His nature. But if God promised that there would be no more mourning or suffering or death, then later changed His mind... how could we trust anything? God does not renege on His word. He does not break His promises. So we can trust His word.

In the meantime:
Why would someone who doesn't believe in god want or expect its promises (which some argue are still 'pending') and covenants to be trusted?

I suspect someone who doesn't believe in God would not expect His promises (even those still pending) and covenants to be trusted. They might still want or hope for it though, if ever thinking about the subject.

A god that (for those that believe) created everything, allowed sin to enter into this 'everything', 'mess it up', then march back in the garden like a spoiled child mad at what happened, when it knew it was going to happen (or it's not all knowing)?

That is your take, not mine.

Why would anyone want to trust that thing unless they need to have something bigger than them in which they can rely on while ignoring all common sense? You expect people to trust such a thing?

I don't have any expectations of anyone.

I'm just responding to a question about God.

Remember, I was a practicing christian for decades (longer than some on this site have been alive). I once bought into all that bunk, but wised up and saw it as a 'man made myth' that is used to control people and dupe them out of their money, lives and control. Christianity even says 'give up all and follow' me. How is that not insisting on control?

As stated in my previous post, that is religion (which is very often about control through fear).

Obviously God has given people the freedom to do (or not) as they choose, and what in the world would God need with money?

People can choose to serve Him and His Son out of love, though, just as His Son served out of love for us, just as God continues to work for our benefit, again out of love. Because He is a God of service, same as Christ, same as we who are called to be in Him, are also called to serve.

Now, we can argue over if god really said that or if it's the religion that says that or if it's teachers of the religion that says that until the fat cows come home and sing while cooking brunch for your in-laws. But we won't get anywhere.
Why?
Because this religion and belief in a magic, bearded, cloud riding man in the sky has 'faith' and 'belief' involved with it (no truth or facts that can be tested and verified). Faith actively denounces knowledge. With knowledge, faith is dead. Gone. Unneeded. Superfluous.

Faith is not dead with knowledge. You need to know who or what you are placing your faith in. Faith is just not based upon what is beheld with the eyes, here and now. Faith instead is based upon what is heard (such as a promise from God, through His Son).

But if you recognize that we do exist in a world that does have order, that actions do have reactions, that there is such a thing as cause and effect, that our actions do affect others, and theirs affect us... and you add in that God is all-knowing, then as stated at the start, God knows what needs to be done (and when) to bring about His plan, His promises, including bringing us to be mature and empathetic and wise beings.

Knowing and doing are two totally different concepts which you seem to be 'forgetting'.

Not at all. Many things have already been done. The return of Christ and the establishment of His Kingdom (in which there is no sorrow, mourning, suffering, death) upon the earth, that has not yet happened.

That does not mean it (parent/god analog) is not valid. Someone not liking it also does not mean it is not valid.

Liking it or not has nothing to do with it. I explained why this isn't valid (more than once).

You explained why you think it is not valid. I must disagree. I mean, if even we know things that must be done as parents (such as allow our children to suffer consequences to bad behavior), and we are imperfect, then God certainly knows those things.



Peace again to you.

[JehovahsWitness]

... why would God allow His Creation to be destroyed along with humans just because of what a couple of humans did?

Destoyed? Are you referring to the flood ?



JW



FURTHER READING : Does God Care About Animals?
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... t-Animals/

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

.THE PURPOSE OF LIFE, ANIMALS and ... CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

[Tcg]

No problem at all. God may have morally sufficient reasons for permitting ANY suffering. Now, if you feel as if God's reasons aren't sufficient, then you and God simply disagree...and the one with the gold makes the rules .

God is the one with the gold.

Next..

There's another saying, The one who has the meanest dog in the neighborhood doesn't worry about getting bit by it.



Believers are the ones with that dog.



Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

... why would God allow His Creation to be destroyed along with humans just because of what a couple of humans did?

Destoyed? Are you referring to the flood ?



JW

Of course.

[brunumb]

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Just what does "sin entered the world" actually entail? It's not a thing that can come and go. If it "entered the world" where did it come from? Let's face it, it's really just a meaningless phrase used to shift the blame for all the punishment inflicted on humans away from God. Battered wife syndrome comes to mind here. "I'm only beating you because I love you" or, "If I'm beating you it's because you made me do it".

How could death come to all people because all sinned apply when only Adam and Eve sinned? It's just nonsense. And, despite what you quoted as a list of things supposedly showing a loving God, that does not diminish the appalling way he treated Adam and Eve for their disobedience. The penalties that he decided to inflict on them, plus all of humanity that followed, is far from loving. You are defending a barbarian tyrant, not a loving parent.

[We_Are_VENOM]

[Replying to Tcg in post #115]

In order to have a mean dog, the dog must exist, right?

Hmm.

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to Tcg in post #115]

In order to have a mean dog, the dog must exist, right?

Hmm.

Like how the Easter Bunny's actually hiding all them eggs

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to Tcg in post #115]

In order to have a mean dog, the dog must exist, right?

Hmm.

So true. That's why we non believers keep asking to see this dog that will bite us. Yet all we get are threats about the dog and continual pointing to a book about a dog.

By the way, I'm loving the anagram sitting deliciously inside this little sub thread