WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

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POI
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WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #1

Post by POI »

I've been debating apologists, pastors, ministers, theists, and others, for a few years now. As I had already suspected, and continue to confirm for myself, is that no amount of logical argumentation later sways one's decision to the opponent's "side". This goes for both theists and atheists alike...

I've delved into the 'psychology of believe', in the passed. However, these topics below look to be my biggest 'findings' thus far, as to why so many believe....

- Most are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to the topic of (type 1 errors). We all commit them BTW.
- Many are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to the topic of geography.
- Many are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to early indoctrination. - It later becomes difficult to shake this early indoctrinated core belief, even if the evidence later suggests otherwise to this recipient.
- Many are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to the notion of 'experiencing god speaking to them' at one point or many.
- (Please add your reason(s) here if you feel I've missed some key topics)

I feel it's safe to assume that we will always have more god believers, verses 'atheists'. Apologetics, though fun to debate, hardly ever IS the reason someone becomes a 'god believer'. "It's been said that logic and reason is not what brought someone to 'god'. Hence, why would you suspect logic and reason could sway such away from god?"

One last thing, before I pose the question(s) for examination...

I was in a heated debate, with a church pastor, about all things... slavery. In the middle, he stopped and asked me.... "Have you ever felt the Holy Spirit?" For which I answered in honesty.... "Though I have had experiences in the passed, for which I cannot fully explain, I do not know whether or not it was me speaking to myself, or if there was the presence of something else, for which was not me." He paused, looked at me, as if he felt sorry for me, and stated... "Okay, this conversation is over." I asked why. He stated that God exists, and He attempts to speak to all of us. If you do not hear Him, this is your fault. I then pointed out that many, around the globe, feel they have communicated with god(s), but also differing god(s) than (yours). He was already done, and just continued to no longer engage, as if he just felt pity for me.

Again, seems all roads, with Christians, seemingly often times leads to Romans 1. Anywho, moving along... Question(s) for debate:

1. Would you mind giving us the MAIN reason you believe? Is it one of the topics above, or other? If you need elaboration on any above, please ask...
2. Is your current belief open for actual debate? Meaning, could ANYTHING shake your faith? If not, why not?
3. Why are you here, hanging out in the apologetics forums? Are you here to convert atheists, or other? On a side note, I suspect apologetics is not what brings Christians to Christianity; so why would you expect different for others?

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #151

Post by POI »

Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am [Replying to POI in post #145]
As I already asked you many responses ago. Is the resurrection claim falsifiable? I kind of do not think it is falsifiable? How could it be demonstrated that Jesus did not rise from the grave? If it was falsifiable, it would have already either been 'demonstrated' to be 'true or false'.
Again, before I get started here, allow me to point out, this is another argument you have not come up with on your own. Rather, it is an old worn-out argument which sounds good to the ears, but has no real substance. Whether something would be falsifiable or not, would have nothing to do with whether it would be true. Moreover, it would have nothing to do with if one should believe a claim. You continue to demonstrate one who grabs ahold of these "sound bite" arguments without thinking through these things yourself. The "unfalsifiable claim" concept came from the philosopher, Karl Popper. His idea was, (and btw I believe it was a good one) the field of SCIENCE (not any other field, nor us as individuals) should only deal with theories which would be falsifiable. In other words, science is in the business of demonstrating. Therefore, Popper rightly concluded, science should only deal with those things which can be falsified. Popper was not in any way suggesting, there would be no facts, evidence, or reasons to believe unfalsifiable claims. Rather, there very well may be very good facts, evidence, and reasons to believe unfalsifiable claims, but these sorts of things would be outside the realm of science.

Can you see it now? Popper had no intention whatsoever, attempting to make the case there would be no reason to believe unfalsifiable claims. In fact, if there are sufficient facts, and evidence in support of unfalsifiable claims, then there may be very good reasons to believe the claims. Popper's point was, science has no business dealing with unfalsifiable claims, since these sorts of things would be outside the realm of science. And yet, even though Popper intended this idea to be confined to science, there have been those who attempt to take it outside the realm of science, and there are others who seem to be willing to take the bait, hook, line, and sinker.
Nice try.

Well, is a resurrection claim, from 2K years ago, falsifiable? I'd say no. How about you? Thus, you get to continue, 'unchallenged', in your 'confidence' that you are right ;)

Further, you asked "what reason do I have to doubt the reports?"

Well, are these reports falsifiable? Meaning, did they really see what they think they saw? Were they thoroughly questioned about what they saw? If so, by who? And how exactly were they cross examined, if any? Can us skeptics pull up the court case, or adjacent transcripts, to determine the alleged claims for ourselves - (via public record)?

Please remember, we are now investigating the biggest claim in human history. Do we at least have sufficient records to investigate, and why they are not disputed by the ones who have further questions?
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am
How could it be demonstrated that Jesus did not rise from the grave?
I am not suggesting it can be "demonstrated that Jesus did not rise from the dead". I am also not suggesting that it can be "demonstrated" that he did indeed rise from the dead. Rather, I am insisting, there are very good reasons for one to believe Jesus did rise from the dead. If you tell me you do not believe that Jesus was raised from the dead, I have no problem with that in the least. I also have no problem if you tell me, you simply doubt Jesus rose from the dead. The only problem I would have, is if you would go on to insist, I have no reason to believe as I do.
I am not saying have 'no reason' to believe. I'm asking you for the "reason(s)." And you already had no problem supplying 'the reason' in another thread. So why didn't you do so in this thread, when I asked you directly?
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am
If these (4) 'demonstrated' eyewitnesses were to be debunked, to your own personal satisfaction, would you still be a Christian?
Absolutely not! Just as Paul said, "if Christ has not been raised, we are to be pitied above all people". In other words, Paul seemed to understand the stakes involved, as do I.
Great, was this so hard? We could have saved many exchanged, and just went straight to this.... Because please remember what the title of this thread is, for which you volunteered to participate "WHY Do You REALLY Believe?"
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am
If not, then I guess we can explore these claims.
I have been waiting for you to explain to me, what reasons I would have to doubt the claims? Is that ever going to occur?
Prior to now, I was not sure if it is going to be a mere talking point, or your reason. Now I know. And yes, it has already started.
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am
I think you have already given the reason you believe, but have yet to reveal it in this thread. Unless you have now changed your mind, which is fine too.
Please do reveal.

(you) --> "you made the claim, that you could "debunk" (expose the falseness) of the reports we have in the NT. When you made this claim, I conceded that if you could hold up your end of the bargain, I would be done with Christianity."

Would you mind telling me what this is all about? The statement above pertains to NT claims. Does your 4 eyewitness claims also pertain to within the NT, or outside the NT? Not really sure, just asking for clarification, because quite frankly, I have yet to dive into your claims here; as I was not sure if this even lends any real credence to your belief?.?.?
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am
You missed my point. WLC was able to offer the linchpin topic/reason for his belief. I think you have one too. What is it?
I can assure you that I have no "linchpin topic/reason" for what I believe concerning Christianity, because I understand it would be a lot more involved.
Your statement above has now been falsified. The reason you are a Christian, is because you lend credence to some alleged 'eyewitnesses'.
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am
Remember when I told you, many responses back, there is nothing new under the sun? Congratulations, you have just given me a re-worked (Lord Liar Lunatic) trilemma argument.
The "Lord liar lunatic" argument never crossed my mind. The argument you are referring to would have to do with the claims Jesus made about himself, and I have not even mentioned this in the least. Maybe because there are those who continue to demonstrate they rely heavily upon others, by giving us these clever little sayings, sound bites, and talking points which did not originate with them, this causes one to believe the rest of us cannot think for ourselves? However, I did not mention Jesus, nor the claims he made about himself. Rather, I have pointed to the facts, and evidence we have, and came up with the only options I could think of. The options I come up with would all be extraordinary themselves. Therefore, I am asking you to come up with some sort of explanation I may not have thought of, which would not include the extraordinary? In the end my argument was, there are those who seem to simply exchange one extraordinary explanation, in order to except another extraordinary explanation? The main point here is, we have these facts, and evidence for a reason. I am asking you to supply a reason, which would not include the extraordinary? I really do not see how this would compare to the "Lord liar lunatic" argument?
I said 're-worked'. Please read carefully before you again decide to go an a tangent. You are trying to get me to discard the "liar" option, via to deceive a crowd. Once I discard this option, then you present accordingly... Well, I never said they are trying to deceive.
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am
Where in this case, you are attempting to get me to discount the "Liar" option.
Well, no! You do not have to deal with the "liar option" in the least! Rather, what I am asking you to do, is to supply me with another option which would not include the extraordinary. You really need to stop thinking I am relying upon the arguments of others, and actually read what I am saying, because my point had nothing to do with "Lord, liar, lunatic." It had to do with those who exchange one extraordinary explanation for another extraordinary explanation, and if there have been others who have made this argument, I am not aware of it.
Yes I do seem to have to defend the "liar" option, because you stated:

"The way I see it is, there must have been those who orchestrated all the facts, in some sort of way in order to deceive, and it was a tremendous success, in that it fooled a good number of folks who would have been alive at the time, along with millions, upon millions of folks down through the years, even to this day."

Thus, I informed you that I do not accuse them of being liars. Thus, I had to waste time telling you this, when I never claimed it to begin with...

Further, it really is not MY responsibility to provide you with alternative options for a claim. It's YOUR job to 'demonstrate' that (your option) is likely the correct one for your belief. Have you already done this? If so, please recap. These threads are starting to get long and it;s becoming tough to stay focused on why this thread actually exists.
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am
I don't think virtually any man made collection of writings, about their god's, were written in such a way to deceive an audience.
Okay? Well, let us take a look at just one passage of many I could use, and you give me the options. One NT author has this to say to his audience at the time,

"For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses"

The author is clearly claiming to have been an "eyewitness" who would have been with Jesus. I am going to have to assume, you doubt this report. Since you have eliminated deception as an option, what other option would there be? Because you see, there is a tremendous difference between one who is simply writing about their god, telling us what they believe god would want us to hear, (which could involve the author truly believing what they are saying) as opposed to one reporting upon what they claim to be historical events. The point is, Christianity does not simply involve folks explaining to us what they believe about God, which could involve truly believing what they say. Rather, the claims of Christianity rests upon, claimed historical events. So again, if we eliminate deception in the passage above, what other option do we have?
Um, maybe he's mistaken, other, other, other,...?

Not 'mistaken' in that there indeed existed a homeless preacher whom introduced sermons to all which chose to listen, but that "He is the Messiah". Please remember, I have no problem blindly accepting that a man named Jesus was born, worked as a carpenter, preached stuff, and was executed for blasphemy by way of 'cross'. Why? I'm actually indifferent, as to whether or not any of these trivial ordinary facts took place; until one wishes to then piggyback that He was also 'miraculous' and a 'Messiah'. These are extraordinary claims -- (the supernatural stuff).
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am
Let's assume we have (4) bonafide eyewitnesses to a 'supernatural' event. Where these witnesses properly deposed/cross examined, or was there any reall follow up at all?
Again, this sort of question sort of demonstrates one who has a lack of knowledge about what we have contained in the NT. As I have already said, the overwhelming majority of the NT can be demonstrated to have been letters addressed to audiences at the time, who would have already been believers. With this being fact, it may in fact be the case, that all we have in the NT would be addressed to those who were already believers. Therefore, the audience at the time would have no reason to cross examine the author.
Oh, you didn't already get that my question was asked for a specific reason? I asked because we do not have documented cross examination. Or at least any which would be deemed suitable for such an important claim in the court of law.

Kool. So you admit it's merely a case of "preaching to the choir". Got it. Sounds completely 'verified' to me. Where do I sign up?
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am But let us see what we do in fact have in these reports? One of the authors of what we now refer to as the gospels, tells his audience at the time, whom he referred to as Theophilus, the apostles were going around preaching, and were facing severe persecution for doing so. I think it would be safe to say this would have been the case, since these men would have been preaching that the Jews were responsible for crucifying the long-awaited Messiah. In fact, the life of Paul would demonstrate this to be the case, since he was going around persecuting Christians himself. However, these folks continued to preach these things, even in the face of such persecution. In fact, we can know beyond any reasonable doubt, Paul continued preaching well into his old age, and was in prison for years for his preaching. Moreover, we have strong evidence to suggest, the author of the letters to Theophilus would have been a traveling companion of Paul for decades, and would have been with Paul, in Paul's old age while he was in prison. In fact, we have a letter in which the author certainly claims to be Paul, and this letter is addressed to Timothy. Also, it is clear from this letter, the author would have been in prison. At any rate, this author just so happens to tell Timothy, "only Luke is with me". You see, in other letters in which the author identifies as Paul, the author mentions the name of Luke as being with him. Then, in his old age, while in prison for his preaching, Paul tells his audience at the time, Luke is with him. Now, I do not know if you would consider this to be any sort of cross examination, but I do not believe it is something which can be ignored.

It is these things, and many, many more, which call for some sort of explanation. If you do not believe these things point to a resurrection, and there must be some other explanation, I have no problem with that in the least. The problem comes in, when, and if one goes on to insist, there would be no reason to believe the reports.
So the fact that (Paul and co.) were matyred "demonstrates" that his belief is 'verified' for you?

I trust you are also aware that many are willing to suffer, and even die for their beliefs, (which oppose the Christian doctrine), right?

And no, I see no real formal cross examination, which would count as sufficient evidence to justify the "claim". Especially since were are speaking about the largest claim in history. Am I doubting Paul believed? No. I'm doubting that what he believed is real. Is there a way to 'verify' that what he believed is indeed factual? Again, we go right back to that fact that this claim, (the resurrection), is indeed unfalsifiable. Agreed?

Maybe this is why the NT mentions 'faith' over and over again? Maybe Jesus did not really care to assure his resurrection left behind sufficient 'evidence'? Thoughts?
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am
You seem to want to continually bring the courts into this conversation
Oh really? Exactly how many times have I brought this up in "this conversation"?
I'm not gonna trek back to the exact quotes, because I do not have the time. But you mentioned that your friend was a lawyer and also went on to write about how he performs jury selection. I ignored it because we must also consider that many try their darndest to get out of jury duty. Thus, character analysis may often be quite askew here, (being that many may say whatever is necessary to get out of jury duty). You then mentioned, later, that eyewitness testimony is what they is used the most in court. Which is also ironic, being that we can look up what the definition of an eyewitness is, and see that, in regards to the Bible, we may have very few to even start with... And when we do get to these eyewitnesses, we also realize these eyewitnesses were not really cross-examined by the courts, or anyone really?
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am
Informally, I'm cross examining "Venom" regarding him "being a direct witness to the Holy Spirit" right now. Does this mean we have a genuine witness to the Holy Spirit? Or is he lying to me? Or other? You tell me? Your current argument is 'interesting', quite frankly.
I have no way to determine, or examine, if what one thinks they are feeling inside themselves, is actually what they are feeling. However, when we are dealing with the NT, we are not dealing with what the authors claimed they were "feeling inside". Rather, they were proclaiming what they claim to be, real historical events, which they claim occurred in real time, in real space, and in real history, outside themselves. Can you see the difference? The authors, of the letters contained in the NT were not pointing to any sort of internal witness as evidence. Nor were they asking the audience at the time to rely upon an internal witness. Rather, these authors were pointing to facts, and evidence which would be external (outside themselves) such as the empty tomb. You continue to deal with these things, such as whether a person is actually "feeling the Holy Spirit", as if you were to be able to determine what they were saying would be false, would have some sort of impact upon the claims of Christianity, instead of actually dealing with the real facts, and evidence we have. I myself, am not going to waste my time, attempting to determine if what one thinks they feel, is actually what they feel, because it would have nothing to do with it.
Sure, I see the different, but you missed my point. I'm not claiming Venom is a liar. Not in the least. However, I'm a skeptic and am now providing followup (informal cross examination); which is apparently much more than one can say about any attestations from the later written Gospels.

And in your case, who wrote about the "empty tomb"? Was this author even alive when "Mark" was written? Maybe the author got their information from oral tradition? Which again, does not mean it's a deceptive lie. The author could be quite sincere in what they are writing about, via what was heard in oral tradition, or instead what they were told to write by the church, other, other, other?
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am
Kind of like what I do now with specific science topics for which I do not fully understand.
What you say here does not shock me in the least. Rather, it is something I expected all along. It should be shocking to me, but sadly it is not. What this seems to demonstrate to me is, the mind may have changed, but the thinking has not changed at all. In other words, when you were a Christian, you simply took the word of others, and now that you are no longer a Christian you simply continue to take the word of others. This is evident to me in some of the arguments you make, which is simply a repeating of an argument which you have heard, which sounds good to the ears, but has nothing to do with reasons to doubt.
Please allow me to elaborate. I do not have time to investigate each and every claim. Or, maybe sometimes I cannot wrap my head around certain 'scientific theories' (for example); even if I investigate them further. Thus, I sometimes, have no choice but to accept the scientific theory, as it stands, as I trust that "peer review" works.

In your case, you claim you strongly believe the resurrection is a sound conclusion. And yet, we have virtually no cross examination of the alleged eyewitnesses and also that these alleged eyewitnesses were martyred.
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am It is absolutely true, that we all may have to take the word of others, from time to time, when we do not fully understand, and this would involve more than just science. As an example, one may be having a problem with their car, and if they do not fully understand how a car operates, they may have to rely on the word of the mechanic in order for the car to be repaired. In other words, in this position, one will have to decide if they want to take the word of the mechanic, and get the car repaired? Or, do they take the time in order to attempt to understand how the car operates in order to determine if the mechanic is being truthful?
Sure, but I at least know my car exists. So we already have a starting point. I can also test it. I can also ask for the part(s) (s)he replaced. I can also ask for the diagnostic report. Etc.. My blind trust would be that this shop does not want bad Yelp reviews, and wants repeat business, and/or does not want me to later come back angry if I find out (s)he did not actually fix the problem, etc...........

If I should so decide to trust that Jesus rose from the grave, how do I perform any follow up for some alleged dead eyewitnesses?

Also, what are the stakes if I'm mistaken, and He didn't rise? Seems to be nada. He didn't rise, and when you die, your are dead. Fin.
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am
As I already asked you... Are well read Bible believers pulling this specific conclusion out of their keister? Other?
you need to stop attempting to determine if one is really feeling what they think they are feeling inside themselves, which would have nothing to do with a reason to doubt the claims contained in the Bible, and begin to examine the real facts, and evidence, which would be external.
So I should stop engaging you then?

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #152

Post by brunumb »

Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am Again, before I get started here, allow me to point out, this is another argument you have not come up with on your own. Rather, it is an old worn-out argument which sounds good to the ears, but has no real substance.
That sounds like just about every apologist I've ever encountered.
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #153

Post by POI »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:41 pm
POI wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:07 pm
If you are not in disagreement, regarding the topics of slavery allowances, women being instructed not to lead in church, or that you only love your children if you whip them when disobedient, what exactly is it that you disagree with regarding the "Holy Spirit"?
Reading comprehension, amigo. I didn't say that I disagree with the Holy Spirit.

I said that the Holy Spirit disagrees with me...which is obviously when I sin.
This is not about 'reading comprehension', amigo. At least where I'm concerned.

(Me) Did you always agree with the Bible's position on slavery, women in church, whipping your kids, and the gays, (or) did you need to be persuaded about any of these topics by the Holy Spirit?
(You) I have no personal issues with the Bible's position of slavery, women in church, whipping your kids, or slavery. So I need not be persuaded about any of these topics by the Holy Spirit.
(Me) So the 'Holy Spirit' never disagrees with you?
(You) The Holy Spirit disagrees with me more times that I'd like to admit.

Now allow me to first explain, and then rephrase what I asked above, so you no longer misunderstand exactly what I am asking of you...

Are there any written laws for which you disagree with? This does not mean you may or may not always obey these laws, but I'm asking that you fundamentally disagree with the law itself (i.e.):

(Rhetorical question, as an example) -- Do you agree that trespassing is wrong, even though you may knowingly sometimes break this law for various reasons?

Trusting we are now on the same page, I ask you the same question anew....

If you are not in disagreement, regarding the topics of slavery allowances, women being instructed not to lead in church, or that you only love your children if you whip them when disobedient, what exactly is it that you disagree with regarding the "Holy Spirit"? Anything at all?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:41 pm
POI wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:07 pm
Okay? Can you give me a little more here? What about your conscious makes you presume 'heat wave sensation' is the Holy Spirit?
I can't explain it any better than I already did. Again, I attribute it to the Holy Spirit, and I certainly can't prove it..which is why I said I presume.
Seems you do not want to even contest what I stated prior (i.e.):

If such feelings can just as easily be attributed to false claims, as it can be for true claims, then I would not use as my 'truth barometer' --> "very sudden, deep, euphoric feelings which seep into and THROUGH your body", as a gauge or a basis for my conclusion(s).

In conclusion, if 'heat wave sensations' is essentially no better than a coin toss, in regards to the inference that a claim is actually true, then why STILL continue to use 'heat wave sensation' as your guide for meriting a true claim?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:41 pm
POI wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:07 pm
I disagree. We do not need to determine if God really exists. We can still go another direction entirely here.
Well, it depends on what is the intended purpose of the conversation. If the conversation is just to satisfy your curiosity (nothing more, nothing less, then I guess we don't need to determine if God really exists.

But if you are a genuine truth seeker about whether or not God exists and are using this convo as a small vehicle to that regard, then this is putting the cart before the horse.

Just my opinion. We can agree to disagree.
I'm trying to determine how you know the "Holy Spirit" speaks to you. Thus far, your methodology looks to be no more validating than a coin toss.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:41 pm
POI wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:07 pm If your God exists, does He use one method of communication, or many? How do you know? What does God tell you? Can you ask Him? Does He tell you?
Based on inference...the background info I have in Christianity/Bible being true. So certain things I experience, I attribute it to divinie revelation/orchestration.
Thus far, your inference to the divine is no better than a coin toss (at best). Meaning, this would assume that you only have two options available. Meaning, not only does the Holy Spirit really exist, but 'heat wave sensation" either (is or is not) the method by which "the Holy Spirit" communicates with you.

Care to now reassess your evaluation process? If not, why not?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:41 pm
POI wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:07 pm Is every 'heat wave sensation' you receive a sign from the Holy Spirit, or just some of the time, or none of the time? And what about others, and their differing felt sensations - (i.e.) noticeable intrusions, 6th sense, audible voices, or speaking in tongues? If the Holy Spirit communicates with you, via "heat wave" communication, does He give you a sensation every time you ask Him a direct question and the answer is "yes"? If so, please ask Him for me and let me know?
All of that good stuff. It isn't limited to one approach...and each approach is something the person receiving it will appreciate.
I'm going to ignore this response above, as it would appear you really have no answer here so far....? Remember we are speaking about a very important topic for you. I doubt credulity is deemed the way to determine a truth, is it?

Let's just assume the 'Holy Spirit' not only exists, but also communicates by multiple means. Meaning, for some He applies noticeable intrusions, for others it is a 6th sense, for others He provides audible voices, and for others it's by speaking in tongues. It's still a coin toss, (at best). Right?

Case/point: I have attended Pentecostal churches, where virtually every congregate in there starts speaking in tongues. Are they all communicating with the Holy Spirit, or just some of them, or maybe none of them? Assuming many of them are genuine in their actions, and not just faking it to fit in with the crowd, how might one know if the 'Holy Spirit" is actually communicating or not? Let's even say they all feel a 'heat wave sensation' while speaking in tongues. Does one coin toss verify another coin toss?

Further, is 'tongue language' one universal language? If so, why do they all sound different when doing so? If there is more than one tongue language, then how many are there and why? And more importantly, does the Bible speak about any of this topic, in regards to how it is to be dome properly? And if so, what does the Bible say exactly?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:41 pm
POI wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:07 pm What about the nature of the dream? The dream was about one of your core beliefs; the topic of religion. Just like you might or might not have a core belief, as it pertains to other hot topics, such as politics for example. Core beliefs can stir up emotion(s). Have you thought about this critically?
I always get a feeling of satisfaction when I do things related to the Kingdom. But that was different. Something very special about it. I dont have a history of getting a feeling when talking about religion, not like THAT one.
As I stated prior, I'm sure many people experience warm sensations, while doing something else entirely; (even outside of your deemed example). How would they know if the 'Holy Spirit' is or is not the source?

Does an overwhelming sensation mean something is true?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:41 pm
POI wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:07 pm Where does the Bible say so, regarding the 'Holy Spirit'?
Well, one sign and the most obvious sign is (Biblically speaking) is for the person receiving the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues. That is not what happened in my case, but I attribute it to the Holy Spirit.
If you admit the Bible has no mention of your methodology of a 'heat wave' sensation, then why the heck would you even consider your methodology as validated?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:41 pm
POI wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:07 pm Exactly what background information leads you to believe the Bible is credible and true?
I am tempted to create a thread on this topic. Or you start a thread "Why do you believe the Bible is credible and true" and I will see you there. Much to discuss there.
No need to divert here. I trust we both have read the Bible. At this point, I can ask you questions without you having to give me a large preamble or background. Just get to the point(s). Why do you believe the Bible is credible and true? You can start by providing bullet points maybe...
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:41 pm
POI wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:07 pm Where does the Bible tell you any of this? 'Realworldjack' might also be interested to know, since he may disagree as well -- (but maybe for differing reasons than I)...
Is Realworldjack a Christian?
He says he is apparently... And he states you are essentially full of beans where this topic is concerned.

(This is what you stated) --> "The Lord can make a person feel good and when the Holy Spirit moves you, it has a physical effect that you can only describe to others, but you can't make them feel it."

Where does the Bible tell you the following, as you stated above? And why should I not only believe it, but how would I assess when it is actually happening, verses not?
Last edited by POI on Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #154

Post by POI »

brunumb wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:09 am
Realworldjack wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:49 am Again, before I get started here, allow me to point out, this is another argument you have not come up with on your own. Rather, it is an old worn-out argument which sounds good to the ears, but has no real substance.
That sounds like just about every apologist I've ever encountered.
Let me know if you've experienced this too....? Once in a while, you will come across an apologist who, on the surface, sounds very well read, claims to have tons of logic, will state they have been doing this for years, and will also claim to be a deep critical thinker. But ultimately, when you press them for their reason(s) for their belief in Christ, the whole thing just kinda falls apart.

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #155

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm
This is not about 'reading comprehension', amigo. At least where I'm concerned.

(Me) Did you always agree with the Bible's position on slavery, women in church, whipping your kids, and the gays, (or) did you need to be persuaded about any of these topics by the Holy Spirit?
(You) I have no personal issues with the Bible's position of slavery, women in church, whipping your kids, or slavery. So I need not be persuaded about any of these topics by the Holy Spirit.
(Me) So the 'Holy Spirit' never disagrees with you?
(You) The Holy Spirit disagrees with me more times that I'd like to admit.

Now allow me to first explain, and then rephrase what I asked above, so you no longer misunderstand exactly what I am asking of you...
Sir, you are being disingenuous, which is shameful.

In post 148, you incorrectly implied that I disagree with the Holy Spirit (which is why you asked "what exactly is it that you disagree with regarding the "Holy Spirit"?). See post 148.

I corrected you by saying that it is not I who disagrees with the Holy Spirit, it is the Holy Spirit who disagrees with me.

So I don't know what you are attempting to prove here, besides take away from the fact that you were WRONG.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Are there any written laws for which you disagree with?
No.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm This does not mean you may or may not always obey these laws, but I'm asking that you fundamentally disagree with the law itself (i.e.):

(Rhetorical question, as an example) -- Do you agree that trespassing is wrong, even though you may knowingly sometimes break this law for various reasons?

Trusting we are now on the same page, I ask you the same question anew....
No, I do not disagree with any of God's laws.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm If you are not in disagreement, regarding the topics of slavery allowances, women being instructed not to lead in church, or that you only love your children if you whip them when disobedient, what exactly is it that you disagree with regarding the "Holy Spirit"? Anything at all?
*Ignoring the question that I've answered at least 4 times*.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Seems you do not want to even contest what I stated prior (i.e.):

If such feelings can just as easily be attributed to false claims, as it can be for true claims, then I would not use as my 'truth barometer' --> "very sudden, deep, euphoric feelings which seep into and THROUGH your body", as a gauge or a basis for my conclusion(s).

In conclusion, if 'heat wave sensations' is essentially no better than a coin toss, in regards to the inference that a claim is actually true, then why STILL continue to use 'heat wave sensation' as your guide for meriting a true claim?
I actually agree with you. Again, I base it all on inference, and if I am wrong, I'm wrong, and If im right, I'm right.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm I'm trying to determine how you know the "Holy Spirit" speaks to you.
And what did I say? I said that I don't "know", right? It is what I assume based on inference.

Now, what part of that you don't understand, I don't know.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Thus far, your methodology looks to be no more validating than a coin toss.
That's fine...but my methodology isn't meant to convince you, is it? It is more self validation and maybe I am wrong.

But, maybe I am right.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Thus far, your inference to the divine is no better than a coin toss (at best).
Sure, in the sense that either Christianity is true, or it is false. I guess that would be a coin toss.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Meaning, this would assume that you only have two options available. Meaning, not only does the Holy Spirit really exist, but 'heat wave sensation" either (is or is not) the method by which "the Holy Spirit" communicates with you.

Care to now reassess your evaluation process? If not, why not?
I do not follow.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm I'm going to ignore this response above, as it would appear you really have no answer here so far....?
Wait a minute...you asked..

"Is every 'heat wave sensation' you receive a sign from the Holy Spirit, or just some of the time, or none of the time? And what about others, and their differing felt sensations - (i.e.) noticeable intrusions, 6th sense, audible voices, or speaking in tongues? If the Holy Spirit communicates with you, via "heat wave" communication, does He give you a sensation every time you ask Him a direct question and the answer is "yes"? If so, please ask Him for me and let me know?

And I replied, it isn't limited to just one approach, so in other words, the answer is "all of the above".

Maybe my answer isn't as grand as you like it to be...but it was an answer to your question, nevertheless.

As far as your other question about does he give me a sensation every time...no, he doesn't.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Remember we are speaking about a very important topic for you. I doubt credulity is deemed the way to determine a truth, is it?

Let's just assume the 'Holy Spirit' not only exists, but also communicates by multiple means. Meaning, for some He applies noticeable intrusions, for others it is a 6th sense, for others He provides audible voices, and for others it's by speaking in tongues. It's still a coin toss, (at best). Right?

Case/point: I have attended Pentecostal churches, where virtually every congregate in there starts speaking in tongues. Are they all communicating with the Holy Spirit, or just some of them, or maybe none of them? Assuming many of them are genuine in their actions, and not just faking it to fit in with the crowd, how might one know if the 'Holy Spirit" is actually communicating or not? Let's even say they all feel a 'heat wave sensation' while speaking in tongues. Does one coin toss verify another coin toss?
The Bible is clear that speaking in tongues is a clear and DIRECT sign that the X person speaking in tongues has the Holy Spirt.

So, if a person(s) is genuinely speaking in tongues, then that person genuinely has the Holy Spirt.

That being said, the answer to your question is; the fact that they are speaking in tongues is how one "might know if the Holy Spirit is actually communicating or not".
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Further, is 'tongue language' one universal language? If so, why do they all sound different when doing so? If there is more than one tongue language, then how many are there and why? And more importantly, does the Bible speak about any of this topic, in regards to how it is to be dome properly? And if so, what does the Bible say exactly?
I haven't done much research on speaking in tongues, so I cannot adequately answer this.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm As I stated prior, I'm sure many people experience warm sensations, while doing something else entirely; (even outside of your deemed example). How would they know if the 'Holy Spirit' is or is not the source?
That is why it is important not to generalize and consider everything on a case by case basis, because all situations aren't equal.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Does an overwhelming sensation mean something is true?
No, but I already acknowledged that the overwhelming sensation and my attributing it to the Holy Spirit is not based upon what I know to be true, but rather what I believe to be true...thus, "I presume".

This is just one of many times you've taken what I said and misconstrued it.

I ask that you stop doing so.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm If you admit the Bible has no mention of your methodology of a 'heat wave' sensation, then why the heck would you even consider your methodology as validated?
Because I am under the belief that God can make you feel good, if he desires to make you feel good.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm
No need to divert here. I trust we both have read the Bible. At this point, I can ask you questions without you having to give me a large preamble or background. Just get to the point(s). Why do you believe the Bible is credible and true? You can start by providing bullet points maybe...
No diverting. You are asking about the credibility of the Bible and why I believe it to be credible, that is an entirely different topic than we've been discussing, and I simply invited you to have a debate/conversation as it pertains to that subject.

If you don't want to do so, then fine...just like I don't want to have a discussion about the Bible's credibility on this thread.

So we are even.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm He says he is apparently... And he states you are essentially full of beans where this topic is concerned.
If he wants some, then he can get it.
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm (This is what you stated) --> "The Lord can make a person feel good and when the Holy Spirit moves you, it has a physical effect that you can only describe to others, but you can't make them feel it."

Where does the Bible tell you the following, as you stated above?
Where does the Bible say that you won't feel good once you receive the Holy Spirit? Alright then.

Like I said..

"I presume".
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm And why should I not only believe it, but how would I assess when it is actually happening, verses not?
Again, you are putting the cart before the horse. Until you accept Jesus, you shouldn't be concerning yourself about anything pertaining to Christianity, much less the Holy Spirit.
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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #156

Post by POI »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm
This is not about 'reading comprehension', amigo. At least where I'm concerned.

(Me) Did you always agree with the Bible's position on slavery, women in church, whipping your kids, and the gays, (or) did you need to be persuaded about any of these topics by the Holy Spirit?
(You) I have no personal issues with the Bible's position of slavery, women in church, whipping your kids, or slavery. So I need not be persuaded about any of these topics by the Holy Spirit.
(Me) So the 'Holy Spirit' never disagrees with you?
(You) The Holy Spirit disagrees with me more times that I'd like to admit.

Now allow me to first explain, and then rephrase what I asked above, so you no longer misunderstand exactly what I am asking of you...
Sir, you are being disingenuous, which is shameful.

In post 148, you incorrectly implied that I disagree with the Holy Spirit (which is why you asked "what exactly is it that you disagree with regarding the "Holy Spirit"?). See post 148.

I corrected you by saying that it is not I who disagrees with the Holy Spirit, it is the Holy Spirit who disagrees with me.

So I don't know what you are attempting to prove here, besides take away from the fact that you were WRONG.
What is shameful, is that you did not actually answer my question, until this last response. You could had instead stated (paraphrased) "I always agree". ;) Then I would not need to keep following up.... And I'll get to what I'm attempting to "prove here", directly below, as I ask you follow up questions....
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Are there any written laws for which you disagree with?
No.
Do you always agree because you think these instructions come from YHWH, or because this is also your gut opinion when reading all of them?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Seems you do not want to even contest what I stated prior (i.e.):

If such feelings can just as easily be attributed to false claims, as it can be for true claims, then I would not use as my 'truth barometer' --> "very sudden, deep, euphoric feelings which seep into and THROUGH your body", as a gauge or a basis for my conclusion(s).

In conclusion, if 'heat wave sensations' is essentially no better than a coin toss, in regards to the inference that a claim is actually true, then why STILL continue to use 'heat wave sensation' as your guide for meriting a true claim?
I actually agree with you. Again, I base it all on inference, and if I am wrong, I'm wrong, and If im right, I'm right.
Is this how you evaluate all your conclusions, (by way of deep felt emotion), or just this one? Remember, this one seems to be a BIGGIE.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm I'm trying to determine how you know the "Holy Spirit" speaks to you.
And what did I say? I said that I don't "know", right? It is what I assume based on inference.

Now, what part of that you don't understand, I don't know.
Okay, please cut the nonsense. I'm aware that no one can KNOW anything with 100% certainty. We have differing levels of confidence about our conclusions. I'm 99.999% sure the sun will rise tomorrow. I'm 99.9999% sure the earth is not flat. Etc... Please do not continue to hide behind the word 'presume'. How sure are you that the 'Holy Spirit' communicates with you? And why is it that you connect deep personal feelings with truth, especially when you acknowledge that one can have deep personal feelings and be completely wrong?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Thus far, your methodology looks to be no more validating than a coin toss.
That's fine...but my methodology isn't meant to convince you, is it? It is more self validation and maybe I am wrong.

But, maybe I am right.
Well, if it was 50/50, you may be onto something. However, due to the topic of external world skepticism, your odds are much much lower. The is why I later stated "(at best)".
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Thus far, your inference to the divine is no better than a coin toss (at best).
Sure, in the sense that either Christianity is true, or it is false. I guess that would be a coin toss.
If there was only one alternative, you would be correct. However, we have an infinite number of alternative possibilities. Thus, you are placing all your eggs in one proverbial basket. Why is that?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Meaning, this would assume that you only have two options available. Meaning, not only does the Holy Spirit really exist, but 'heat wave sensation" either (is or is not) the method by which "the Holy Spirit" communicates with you.

Care to now reassess your evaluation process? If not, why not?
I do not follow.
I trust you may follow now?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm I'm going to ignore this response above, as it would appear you really have no answer here so far....?
Wait a minute...you asked..

"Is every 'heat wave sensation' you receive a sign from the Holy Spirit, or just some of the time, or none of the time? And what about others, and their differing felt sensations - (i.e.) noticeable intrusions, 6th sense, audible voices, or speaking in tongues? If the Holy Spirit communicates with you, via "heat wave" communication, does He give you a sensation every time you ask Him a direct question and the answer is "yes"? If so, please ask Him for me and let me know?

And I replied, it isn't limited to just one approach, so in other words, the answer is "all of the above".

Maybe my answer isn't as grand as you like it to be...but it was an answer to your question, nevertheless.

As far as your other question about does he give me a sensation every time...no, he doesn't.
How would you know what approache(s) God uses, if any? Especially when some of these are not listed in the Bible, (maybe even including yours)?

And if He does not give you a sensation every time, how are you still so sure, or 'presume', that He is there giving you anything at all?




We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Remember we are speaking about a very important topic for you. I doubt credulity is deemed the way to determine a truth, is it?

Let's just assume the 'Holy Spirit' not only exists, but also communicates by multiple means. Meaning, for some He applies noticeable intrusions, for others it is a 6th sense, for others He provides audible voices, and for others it's by speaking in tongues. It's still a coin toss, (at best). Right?

Case/point: I have attended Pentecostal churches, where virtually every congregate in there starts speaking in tongues. Are they all communicating with the Holy Spirit, or just some of them, or maybe none of them? Assuming many of them are genuine in their actions, and not just faking it to fit in with the crowd, how might one know if the 'Holy Spirit" is actually communicating or not? Let's even say they all feel a 'heat wave sensation' while speaking in tongues. Does one coin toss verify another coin toss?
The Bible is clear that speaking in tongues is a clear and DIRECT sign that the X person speaking in tongues has the Holy Spirt.

So, if a person(s) is genuinely speaking in tongues, then that person genuinely has the Holy Spirt.

That being said, the answer to your question is; the fact that they are speaking in tongues is how one "might know if the Holy Spirit is actually communicating or not".
Even though they all speak differently, and seem to only do so in specific types of churches? This would mean "tongue language" has multiple dialects, and usually only manifests in specific demominational churches?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm As I stated prior, I'm sure many people experience warm sensations, while doing something else entirely; (even outside of your deemed example). How would they know if the 'Holy Spirit' is or is not the source?
That is why it is important not to generalize and consider everything on a case by case basis, because all situations aren't equal.
So if one is to have any overwhelming euphoric feeling, and they 'presume' this euphoric feeling was from YHWH, then it likely is? What if they 'presume' this sensation if from an alternative source? How might one investigate?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm Does an overwhelming sensation mean something is true?
No, but I already acknowledged that the overwhelming sensation and my attributing it to the Holy Spirit is not based upon what I know to be true, but rather what I believe to be true...thus, "I presume".
Is there any way to investigate your 'presumption'?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm If you admit the Bible has no mention of your methodology of a 'heat wave' sensation, then why the heck would you even consider your methodology as validated?
Because I am under the belief that God can make you feel good, if he desires to make you feel good.
Okay? But if this methodology for communication by the Holy Spirit is not expressed in the Bible, why do you infer this conclusion on your own?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm (This is what you stated) --> "The Lord can make a person feel good and when the Holy Spirit moves you, it has a physical effect that you can only describe to others, but you can't make them feel it."

Where does the Bible tell you the following, as you stated above?
Where does the Bible say that you won't feel good once you receive the Holy Spirit? Alright then.

Like I said..

"I presume".
Why do you 'presume'? We can feel really good all the time, does this mean God is invoking any of this?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm And why should I not only believe it, but how would I assess when it is actually happening, verses not?
Again, you are putting the cart before the horse. Until you accept Jesus, you shouldn't be concerning yourself about anything pertaining to Christianity, much less the Holy Spirit.
No. I'm curious as to how you have made your conclusion. Is it merely credulity? Seems so thus far... Do you base all your inferences, beliefs, and conclusions upon credulity, or just the most important one of all?

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #157

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
What is shameful, is that you did not actually answer my question, until this last response. You could had instead stated (paraphrased) "I always agree". ;) Then I would not need to keep following up.... And I'll get to what I'm attempting to "prove here", directly below, as I ask you follow up questions....
:blink:
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
Do you always agree because you think these instructions come from YHWH, or because this is also your gut opinion when reading all of them?
A little bit of both.
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
Is this how you evaluate all your conclusions, (by way of deep felt emotion), or just this one? Remember, this one seems to be a BIGGIE.
It is situational. Sometimes you have it, sometimes you don't.
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
Okay, please cut the nonsense. I'm aware that no one can KNOW anything with 100% certainty.
Speak for yourself. I know with 100% certainty that "a" God exists.
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm We have differing levels of confidence about our conclusions. I'm 99.999% sure the sun will rise tomorrow. I'm 99.9999% sure the earth is not flat. Etc... Please do not continue to hide behind the word 'presume'. How sure are you that the 'Holy Spirit' communicates with you? And why is it that you connect deep personal feelings with truth, especially when you acknowledge that one can have deep personal feelings and be completely wrong?
You are asking me how am I sure...and I answer that question multiple times by saying "based on inference". I don't know what more do you want.

Based on inference means; I have some background information that allows me to conclude that Christianity is true, and I take such a stance accordingly.

Since I believe Christianity is true, then I believe in God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, salvation, life after death...heaven, hell, angels, demons, all all sorts of other stuff that comes with Christianity, which is stuff like certain feelings.

Now of course, the question will then be "well, how do you know Christianity is true", and that is taking the conversation far beyond where I would like it to go, at least on this thread.
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm Well, if it was 50/50, you may be onto something. However, due to the topic of external world skepticism, your odds are much much lower. The is why I later stated "(at best)".
Ohhh, so you know the odds of Christianity being true? Please, tell me how you know this.
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
If there was only one alternative, you would be correct. However, we have an infinite number of alternative possibilities. Thus, you are placing all your eggs in one proverbial basket. Why is that?
Sir, I said Christianity is either true, or false...if any of those other infinite number of alternative possibilities are true, then that would mean that Christianity is false, which is no surprise to me, when I ALREADY STATED THAT CHRISTIANITY IS EITHER TRUE, OR FALSE.

So why are you making an argument out of something that we both agree on?


We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:27 pm
POI wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm I'm going to ignore this response above, as it would appear you really have no answer here so far....?
Wait a minute...you asked..
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm How would you know what approache(s) God uses, if any? Especially when some of these are not listed in the Bible, (maybe even including yours)?
Because God isn't limited to how he wants someone to feel his presence.
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm And if He does not give you a sensation every time, how are you still so sure, or 'presume', that He is there giving you anything at all?
So, if my wife doesn't give me a gift on my birthday every single year....how am I sure or "presume" she is gonna give me anything at all.

I don't know, that is why I am glad the word "presume" was created.

For situations just like this.
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm Even though they all speak differently, and seem to only do so in specific types of churches? This would mean "tongue language" has multiple dialects, and usually only manifests in specific demominational churches?
I have not researched the gift of speaking in tongues..so I don't know.
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
So if one is to have any overwhelming euphoric feeling, and they 'presume' this euphoric feeling was from YHWH, then it likely is? What if they 'presume' this sensation if from an alternative source? How might one investigate?
Not so fast. If you recall, my euphoric feeling was in the context of Christianity. We are not talking about going to the amusement park, getting on a ride, feeling an adrenaline rush, and attributing the feeling to the Holy Spirt.

No.

The feeling that I received was different than anything I've ever experienced, and it seemed to have a direct correlation with the activity I engaged in, which related to my faith...so that is what I attribute it to.
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
Is there any way to investigate your 'presumption'?
No. All I have is faith at this point.
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
Okay? But if this methodology for communication by the Holy Spirit is not expressed in the Bible, why do you infer this conclusion on your own?
What is in the Bible is people feeling good after having an experience that is God-related, and I believe that the feeling that I received is including, but not limited to, such an experience.
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
Why do you 'presume'? We can feel really good all the time, does this mean God is invoking any of this? No. I'm curious as to how you have made your conclusion. Is it merely credulity? Seems so thus far... Do you base all your inferences, beliefs, and conclusions upon credulity, or just the most important one of all?
Asking the same question in a different way, are we?

But since we are on this subject, I have another instance that you all can laugh at. So, one of my favorite movies all time is "The Prince of Egypt", and the Burning Bush scene is very, very touching...so much so that it brings tears to my eyes every single time I watch it.

The other day when I watched it, I literally cried and it brings tears to my eyes just just thinking about it.

If you read the comments, many believers were touched by this scene.

Hey, this is something that only believers will understand.

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #158

Post by POI »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:03 am
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm Do you always agree because you think these instructions come from YHWH, or because this is also your gut opinion when reading all of them?
A little bit of both.
What do you mean by a 'little bit of both'? For example, the aforementioned topics of slavery, whipping your children, women < men, and homosexuality come back to mind. Do you merely agree because you feel like you have to - (Via God says so), <or> when you come across these topics, your gut already 100% agrees with these assertions - (regardless of if they were God pronouncements or not)?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:03 am
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
Is this how you evaluate all your conclusions, (by way of deep felt emotion), or just this one? Remember, this one seems to be a BIGGIE.
It is situational. Sometimes you have it, sometimes you don't.
So in your situation, regarding the biggest surmised conclusion of them all, credulity is the way to go?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:03 am
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
Okay, please cut the nonsense. I'm aware that no one can KNOW anything with 100% certainty.
Speak for yourself. I know with 100% certainty that "a" God exists.
Thus far, looks as though you have reached this 100% certainty, based upon credulity.

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:03 am
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm We have differing levels of confidence about our conclusions. I'm 99.999% sure the sun will rise tomorrow. I'm 99.9999% sure the earth is not flat. Etc... Please do not continue to hide behind the word 'presume'. How sure are you that the 'Holy Spirit' communicates with you? And why is it that you connect deep personal feelings with truth, especially when you acknowledge that one can have deep personal feelings and be completely wrong?
You are asking me how am I sure...and I answer that question multiple times by saying "based on inference".
Thus far, in regards to the topic of the 'Holy Spirit', your conclusion has been made by way of credulity; and nothing more. If your search is for truth, especially about this topic, seems as though you would not hinge such a conclusion upon this methodology.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:03 am
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm Well, if it was 50/50, you may be onto something. However, due to the topic of external world skepticism, your odds are much much lower. The is why I later stated "(at best)".
Ohhh, so you know the odds of Christianity being true? Please, tell me how you know this.
I stated I know "your odds are much lower". I 'know' this because of the topic of external world skepticism. Until you can effectively rule out every other possible option, these options must still be left upon the table. Thus, when it comes to you feeling a 'heat wave sensation', how many other options have you effectively ruled out? And how were you able to do so?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:03 am
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm Even though they all speak differently, and seem to only do so in specific types of churches? This would mean "tongue language" has multiple dialects, and usually only manifests in specific demominational churches?
I have not researched the gift of speaking in tongues..so I don't know.
You don't need to. I just brought forth two observations, just for starters...

1. How many 'tongue languages' are there?
2. Why merely manifest in specific churches; where this practice is expected and/or encouraged?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:03 am
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
So if one is to have any overwhelming euphoric feeling, and they 'presume' this euphoric feeling was from YHWH, then it likely is? What if they 'presume' this sensation if from an alternative source? How might one investigate?
Not so fast. If you recall, my euphoric feeling was in the context of Christianity. We are not talking about going to the amusement park, getting on a ride, feeling an adrenaline rush, and attributing the feeling to the Holy Spirt.

No.

The feeling that I received was different than anything I've ever experienced, and it seemed to have a direct correlation with the activity I engaged in, which related to my faith...so that is what I attribute it to.
So if the feeling is (unique and/or exclusive) to one specific topic, you "presume" it is from the Holy Spirit? Why is that? Again, please remember we are dealing with the topic of external world skepticism.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:03 am
POI wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
Is there any way to investigate your 'presumption'?
No. All I have is faith at this point.
So again, it all boils down to credulity for the BIGGEST topic?

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #159

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

POI wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:47 pm What do you mean by a 'little bit of both'? For example, the aforementioned topics of slavery, whipping your children, women < men, and homosexuality come back to mind. Do you merely agree because you feel like you have to - (Via God says so), <or> when you come across these topics, your gut already 100% agrees with these assertions - (regardless of if they were God pronouncements or not)?
Because God says so. If God doesn't exist, then anything goes.
POI wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:47 pm
So in your situation, regarding the biggest surmised conclusion of them all, credulity is the way to go?
Belief based on reasonable faith is the way to go.
POI wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:47 pm Thus far, looks as though you have reached this 100% certainty, based upon credulity.
Take it how you want to take it, sir.
POI wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:47 pm Thus far, in regards to the topic of the 'Holy Spirit', your conclusion has been made by way of credulity; and nothing more. If your search is for truth, especially about this topic, seems as though you would not hinge such a conclusion upon this methodology.
Again, "I presume". If I wrong, I am wrong. If im right, then I'm right.
POI wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:47 pm
I stated I know "your odds are much lower". I 'know' this because of the topic of external world skepticism. Until you can effectively rule out every other possible option, these options must still be left upon the table. Thus, when it comes to you feeling a 'heat wave sensation', how many other options have you effectively ruled out? And how were you able to do so?
Then everything goes back to "I presume", doesn't it? If I admit that I may be wrong, then doesn't it follow that any of those other options may the cause?

Yes, it does.
POI wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:47 pm
You don't need to. I just brought forth two observations, just for starters...

1. How many 'tongue languages' are there?
I don't know.
POI wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:47 pm 2. Why merely manifest in specific churches; where this practice is expected and/or encouraged?
I don't know.
POI wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:47 pm
So if the feeling is (unique and/or exclusive) to one specific topic, you "presume" it is from the Holy Spirit? Why is that? Again, please remember we are dealing with the topic of external world skepticism.
Again, you are asking the same question and its been answered. I said, INFERENCE.
POI wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:47 pm
So again, it all boils down to credulity for the BIGGEST topic?
What you call credulity, I call reasonable faith.
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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #160

Post by Realworldjack »

[Replying to POI in post #151]

On this past Tuesday, I sat down to type out a response to your last post intending to respond to everything you had to say. While doing so, I began to feel ill, and on Wednesday I tested positive for covid, and have not felt well enough to continue. I feel somewhat better now, but while I was ill, I began to think that it may be far better to address one issue at a time, instead of taking on everything at once. In other words, maybe it will be better to see if we may be able to settle one issue before moving on to the next? With that being said, let us look at what you say first in order to see if we can come to some sort of resolution here, before moving on.
Nice try.

Well, is a resurrection claim, from 2K years ago, falsifiable? I'd say no. How about you?
My friend, I have addressed your complaint here, by demonstrating that an unfalsifiable claim would lend no reason for doubt. I have also demonstrated the unfalsifiable claim concept had nothing whatsoever to do with the idea that there would be reason to doubt a claim. This concept was intended to confine science to those things which can be falsified and keep science outside of those things which cannot be demonstrated. This has nothing whatsoever to do with claiming there would be no reason to believe unfalsifiable claims. And yet, although I have made this very plain, instead of you addressing these facts, you simply go on to repeat the same exact thing, even though I have successfully refuted the argument. The point is, the unfalsifiable concept is the idea that unfalsifiable claims should be doubted, (which is the way in which you are using it)? Or, it had nothing to do with it at all, and there are those who have used this argument, while there are others who simply seem to be more than willing to take the bait, hook, line, and sinker, without actually thinking it through? The question is, are you willing to take up the debate that a claim which would be unfalsifiable would be any cause for doubt at all? I say no, and that was never the intention. How about you?
Thus, you get to continue, 'unchallenged', in your 'confidence' that you are right
I could continue in my confidence unchallenged, if I were to simply stick with those who agree with me. However, what does it say, when I have spent far more time here on this site, with those who continue to challenge what I believe, than I have with those who happen to agree with me?
Further, you asked "what reason do I have to doubt the reports?"

Well, are these reports falsifiable?
Here we go again, simply repeating what you have already said? What you need to do now is to defend the idea that a claim which is unfalsifiable is a cause for doubt? Because you see, the question was, "what reason do I have to doubt the claims"? Your response seems to be, because the claim is unfalsifiable. The question is, how is this a reason for doubt? Is it your suggestion that we should doubt ALL unfalsifiable claims, simply because they are unfalsifiable?
Meaning, did they really see what they think they saw?
At this point you seem to be demonstrating one who clearly understands something did in fact occur some 2000 years ago? Whatever it was, it has had an enormous impact upon history. I am supposed to doubt the claims because they are unfalsifiable. I guess then, I should also doubt any other explanation which may explain all these things, since all these other explanations would be unfalsifiable as well? Therefore, it seems the best solution, is for all of us to simply come to the conclusion, although we can all agree, something extraordinary happen some 2000 years ago, any explanation would be unfalsifiable, and therefore we should all hold a neutral position? If this is the case, then I think you should also be opposing those such as Dawkins, who you seem to be championing? In other words, you seem to have no problem when Dawkins insists, he has great confidence in the position he holds, but somehow have a problem with those who may have the same confidence who may be opposed? Wonder why that would be?

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