Why was a sacrifice needed at all?

[nobspeople]

It's said Jesus came as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. But to whom did the sacrifice matter? God? If Jesus was also god, in a way (like some claim), he was sacrificing himself to himself...? That doesn't make a lot of sense.
If Jesus is not god, then Jesus sacrificed himself to god. Why does god need a sacrifice at all? Some would say 'god can't be with sin' or the like. But why not? Surely, if god is the god it's said it is, god could change any 'rule' set up (as god itself had to set up the 'rule') and not require such a painful, terrible sacrifice? Isn't god 'enough' that being in its presence would, for lack of a better term, vaporize or negate all sin? God is greater than all sin (as some claim) then why is a sacrifice needed)
For discussion:
Why would god need a sacrifice if god created everything that is and had the ability not to need a sacrifice at all?

[1213]

It's said Jesus came as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. But to whom did the sacrifice matter? God? If Jesus was also god, in a way (like some claim), he was sacrificing himself to himself...? That doesn't make a lot of sense.
...

Jesus forgave sins before his death, and gave the same right for his disciples. Therefore his death was not required for forgiveness.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Jesus came to declare that message to people and was killed because of that. It is similar to when soldier defends his country and is killed, it can be said he sacrificed his life for his country. Similarly, Jesus sacrifices his life for us because he used his life for our benefit and was killed because of that.

[cms]

nobspeople, Jesus offered a sacrifice that is pleasing to God. He fulfilled Isaiah 58:6-14.

[nobspeople]

nobspeople, Jesus offered a sacrifice that is pleasing to God. He fulfilled Isaiah 58:6-14.

But why was that necessary, is the point? Why did god need a sacrifice at all? Why couldn't god simply annihilate sin without the need to cause god's son/self to die?
Why does god need a physical sacrifice?

[Miles]

It's said Jesus came as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. But to whom did the sacrifice matter? God? If Jesus was also god, in a way (like some claim), he was sacrificing himself to himself...? That doesn't make a lot of sense.
...

Jesus forgave sins before his death, and gave the same right for his disciples. Therefore his death was not required for forgiveness.

So, what was it required for?

Well, there's "12 Verses to Remember the Sacrifice Christ Made for You," of which I especially liked #7: It satisfied god's wrath. Can't have god going along day after day filled with wrath, now can we, and what better way to stop it than to have a human sacrifice.


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[TRANSPONDER]

It's said Jesus came as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. But to whom did the sacrifice matter? God? If Jesus was also god, in a way (like some claim), he was sacrificing himself to himself...? That doesn't make a lot of sense.
...

Jesus forgave sins before his death, and gave the same right for his disciples. Therefore his death was not required for forgiveness.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Jesus came to declare that message to people and was killed because of that. It is similar to when soldier defends his country and is killed, it can be said he sacrificed his life for his country. Similarly, Jesus sacrifices his life for us because he used his life for our benefit and was killed because of that.

Interesting. Then what is thee implication for Christianity in your view? The crucifixion -death itself is not the Loophole in the law of sin -death (which can be accessed only by Faith, not Works) but simply Jesus saying (effectively) that God has Just Forgiven us? So Original sin is now gone? We are not sinful from Birth? Can you identify the creed of Christianity that has such a Dogma, or is this some understanding of your own?

[TRANSPONDER]

nobspeople, Jesus offered a sacrifice that is pleasing to God. He fulfilled Isaiah 58:6-14.

That wouldn't appear to be the case. That sacrifice (according to the Bible) would be a blood sacrifice, from the one that Noah made after the flood, and affirmed in Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac though God never intended human sacrifice but the continuation of animal sacrifice. The idea being no doubt that the willingness to sacrifice one's own (at need) was taken for the deed.

Thus I'd agree that a human sacrifice (which is what it would have been) would Not be pleasing to God, and assuming that human salvation was accomplished at all it was not actually Jesus' blood that did it. It has to be of course that Belief in Jesus is what makes the loophole in sin - death and the blood accomplishes nothing in itself, unless you would agree with my reading of Paul that Jesus was not God, a a reincarnated spirit (effectively) undoing (by extreme obedience) the disobedience that the original man had committed thus making mankind sinful.

This means that the obedience to death of Jesus was a pleasing enough atonement (rather than sacrifice) that God abolished sin - death.... but only for those who believed in Jesus. Sinlessness can't just be dished out to everyone, whether they believed in Jesus or not. Good heavens, no.

[Purple Knight]

Personally I think it's a scam. Especially if it's true.

Forgiveness, but only if I punish someone else? Forgiven means no punishment is exacted. If Jesus really died to pay for my sins, then if we accept that as valid, the debt is paid, there is no debt anymore, why do I have to accept anything?

If I go to Taco Bell and find you've already paid for my food, they're just going to give me the food. I don't have to know you, accept you or what you've done, though I can, if I want to, refuse the free food. According to Christianity I have a debt that's caused by people I never knew and I don't have to accept them, but I do have to accept Jesus so he can pay my tab? Why? Why is there a hard prevent in the debt being paid unless I accept the person paying, but no hard prevent because I reject Adam and Eve? Eve, you suck, I don't accept you and your taking candy from slithering strangers. Adam, I don't accept you either, if she really thinks it's a good idea then she'd be eating it first, so have an ounce of maybe-this-is-not-a-good-idea.

But if you examine deeper, even more ancient ideas about what gods are, this starts to make sense.

And I'm not saying it's wrong to do this, but to me it plays out like a big trick to get all gentiles to go to Hell by accepting a religion - agreeing to be judged by a religion - where they are sinful and the wages of sin are hell and death.

Just imagine for a moment that there really is an afterlife, and judgment is simple: If you lived rightly by your own ideals, you at least continue to exist in some fashion or get a reward or are reborn or something. So you die, and the afterlife comes, and you are asked which spiritual figure you believe in, who do you accept? So you say, I am a Christian, I accept Jesus. So now you have accepted, wanted to be judged by, the Christian religion, and you have selected a game you cannot win. You have selected a set of rules where you cannot get the reward unless someone saves you from the rules because you're guilty of breaking them. And only now you find out that nobody can save you from the rules you impose upon yourself.

I can't imagine a more perfect set-up to make sure gentiles go to Hell if this really was what judgment was like.

Now it all makes perfect sense why everyone is sinful. Now it all makes sense why everyone has to accept Jesus. It makes a lot more sense than God letting his own son be tortured to death for people he's never cared about when he could just forgive them, only he doesn't want to do that because he likes the rules about sacrifices.

The Christian religion is not real. Gods don't change their tunes and go from highly racial to being for everybody. They do, however, try to help their own and trick others.

[cms]

It has to be of course that Belief in Jesus is what makes the loophole in sin - death and the blood accomplishes nothing in itself, unless you would agree with my reading of Paul that Jesus was not God, a a reincarnated spirit (effectively) undoing (by extreme obedience) the disobedience that the original man had committed thus making mankind sinful.

Transponder, I don't believe in original sin. I think what God wanted all along was for man to be fruitful-meaning produce good spiritual fruit. As He says to Cain, "Do well and it will be well with you." And according to Isaiah, animal sacrifices and rituals are worthless. What was necessary was for man to put away his evil ways and learn to do good "and your sins will be as white as snow." I think these people were living in world steeped in superstition, pagan rituals, etc. and it takes time to change such beliefs. Like Isaiah, Jesus was killed for denouncing all of these things.

[1213]

Interesting. Then what is thee implication for Christianity in your view? The crucifixion -death itself is not the Loophole in the law of sin -death (which can be accessed only by Faith, not Works) but simply Jesus saying (effectively) that God has Just Forgiven us? So Original sin is now gone? We are not sinful from Birth? Can you identify the creed of Christianity that has such a Dogma, or is this some understanding of your own?

I think modern Christianity has too much human doctrines that are not well based to the Bible. In my opinion it would be best, if Christians would simply return directly to the teachings of Jesus. After all, Christian meant originally a disciple of Jesus. And if person is truly his disciple, it means:

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

I think Paul and others have also good teachings, but the problem with them is that they can be easily twisted to doctrines that are not well supported by what Jesus said in the Bible, but they are useful for to establish religious sects that can be used to exploit people.

And in the case of original sin. If it means the first sin that people did, that Adam and Eve rejected God in the paradise, then it is ok and Biblical. They were expelled from the paradise and for us that means, we are born to this “first death” in separation from God. And because sin can be understood as rejecting God, or being separated from God, it can be said we are born in sin, in sinful state. Luckily that is not a problem, because we have for example Jesus to show way back to God, to restore the lost connection. In this case original sin is not something that must be forgiven for us, because it is not something we did. It means only that because we bare the consequence, there is a solution to counter that, we have way back to God.

Forgiveness of sins is for our own wrong doings. If we have done something wrong, it can be forgiven. However, as Jesus said:

“Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more.”
John 8:11

By what Jesus said, there must happen change in us, we should be born anew and become righteous, which I think is the opposite of sinful. In Bible, eternal life is promised only for those who are righteous.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Newborn.html
http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Righteous.html