Predestination and justice

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Predestination and justice

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Post by Compassionist »

https://reformedwiki.com/verses/predestination If God predestined the lives of humans, how can it be just for God to send some to heaven and some to hell?

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Re: Predestination and justice

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Post by POI »

Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:42 pm https://reformedwiki.com/verses/predestination If God predestined the lives of humans, how can it be just for God to send some to heaven and some to hell?
Define God's "justice"?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Predestination and justice

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Post by Compassionist »

I define justice as the administration of deserved punishment or reward.

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Re: Predestination and justice

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Post by POI »

Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 2:01 pm I define justice as the administration of deserved punishment or reward.
I asked you to define God's "justice", not yours? :)
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Predestination and justice

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Post by Miles »

Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:42 pm https://reformedwiki.com/verses/predestination If God predestined the lives of humans, how can it be just for God to send some to heaven and some to hell?
It can't be. But who says god has to be just? For someone who creates evil, being unjust seems quite in tune with the character of someone who also sends fallible humans to eternal damnation for mistakes they made during a comparatively infinitesimally short stay on earth.


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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #6

Post by Compassionist »

POI wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 2:12 pm
Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 2:01 pm I define justice as the administration of deserved punishment or reward.
I asked you to define God's "justice", not yours? :)
Justice is justice. I don't see why there would be a separation of the term justice into God's justice and non-God's justice. I don't even know if God exists.

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #7

Post by POI »

Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 2:39 pm
POI wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 2:12 pm
Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 2:01 pm I define justice as the administration of deserved punishment or reward.
I asked you to define God's "justice", not yours? :)
Justice is justice. I don't see why there would be a separation of the term justice into God's justice and non-God's justice. I don't even know if God exists.
FYI... I agree, mostly, with your brand of 'justice'. I too doubt, that not only a god (in general) exists, but more-so that a "Christian-flavored" god exists.

I too started to ask similar questions, during my early days of doubt. Such as:

If God already knows where you are going to end up, before He creates you, then why not just 'auto-send' you to where you 'belong' or not create the ones which will not chose Him?

Or, if God causes some to be inexorably drawn to Him, and not others, then free will is not a thing, and god picks your destiny, not you.

I get it... The entire concept seems corrupted, if God has perfect foreknowledge. I guess this is why some Christians will argue that the whole idea of being 'omniscient' was a later idea?.?.?.?

Or, the theist may argue that just because you have foreknowledge, does not mean that the ones He is watching still do not have free will? Which then opens up another can of worms...?

So, what IS God's justice? I'd first wager to say that if God does indeed exist, He can do whatever the heck He wants. Whatever He says, goes. It would not matter if we agree or not. Hence, if it should turn out that God predestines where you are going to end up, then you can't stop Him. You can disagree, but He is not going to change His tactics. And if He does, because you pray to Him, or ask Him, then I guess that means humans have the ability to change God's predetermined will?

I'll stop here...
'
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #8

Post by Compassionist »

[Replying to POI in post #7]

You have raised excellent issues. I don't know the answers to your questions. I don't know the answers to my questions either. That's why I am searching for answers.

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #9

Post by Tcg »

Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:42 pm https://reformedwiki.com/verses/predestination If God predestined the lives of humans, how can it be just for God to send some to heaven and some to hell?
If you're looking for a biblical answer it can be found in Romans 9:
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
It is not very satisfying I'm afraid. It more or less boils down to God does whatever he wants and since it is God doing it, it is just.

I think that the real answer is that there is no justice, at least no final and fair justice. Humans tend to not like this answer though, so most if not all religions have developed some kind of scheme to convince their followers there will be in the next life. Of course, if there is no next life none of these schemes are valid.


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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #10

Post by oldbadger »

POI wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:52 pm Define God's "justice"?
For Jesus and the Jews?
The Old Laws of Moses, all 613 of them, back then.

But that was the God of the Israelites...... Jesus wanted a return of the poor laws (most).

But the idea of Predestination is ......... very strange. My second son predestined to die after a few weeks?
Pointless stuff imo.

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