The Central Problem with Christianity

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The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

Jesus (and Paul) thought the world was going to end soon. This is why Jesus told people to give away their possessions, and Paul taught people should not marry. Jesus spoke very specifically about the world ending in the lifetime of those he preached to. [I won't go into the verses, because it will spawn the usual verbal gymnastics about how he did not mean what he said]

Christians, for the most part, ignore the idea of not attaining wealth. They also ignore the admonition not to marry. They ignore these basic Christian teachings because they don't like them. Instead, they claim Jesus didn't really mean what he said about the end coming soon. This provides cover for getting married and accumulating wealth.

The question for debate is, "Why do most Christians marry and try to accumulate wealth despite the very clear New Testament admonitions to do the opposite?
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.
__ Matthew 6:19-20
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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #201

Post by oldbadger »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:59 am
Ah,,,, :D That was where I was a decade or so ago. I took the gospels as basically reliable and one could construct a Real Jesus' story by cherry -picking the bits that fitted. The fact is that 'the disciples stole the body' theory fits the narrative better than the Christian hypothesis. Pilate was clearly disposed to let Jesus off. When Arimathea approached him he was glad to have his Auxiliaries help Joseph to facepalm Jesus with a Spunge of puggle, knock him out then ferry him out of the tomb as soon as the coast was clear. The tomb was empty before the tomb guard was posted and they were working for Pilate anyway.
Ah..... I reversed the above technique and binned the bits that (I thought) didn't fit.
That body....... I don't think there was one. I see two possibilities, 1. The stab cleared a lung of blood and fluid and that Joseph of A got Jesus down, to a tomb, then clear away, possibly on Pilate's orders and wishes. 2.Some other poor person got stuck up and Jesus Son of the Father was released, again, Pilate was pleased with his actions in the temple. BarAbba was probable the one welcomed in to Jersualem, the one that checked out and recced the Temple on Sunday, that wrecked Anna's bazaar and the sacrificial sales dept on Monday and picketed the Temple Courts (wow!) and then did it all again on Tuesday (why are doing these things? etc ).
Then the faked miracles: the healing of the servant or boy where nobody saw it but heard the claim 'he got better at exactly the time!" Like they'd sychrionised watches. Or the girl pretending to be at death's door. Jesus only let a few trusted disciples see that one. Bar Timaeus (They know his name :) ) posted outside Jericho primed to pretend to be cured to make Jesus look good and finally the whole plot around Lazarus, message sent where Martha knew Jesus would be - at John's healing -place in Paraea - Jesus waiting two days before setting out and Lazarus popped in the tomb just in time for Jesus to arrive and have him walk out, legs individually wrapped so he could walk. And there you have a dry run for Arimathea's plot to save Jesus.
Miracles..... if there's no natural explanation then I bin 'em. Some of them could have been brilliant, of course. The blind man....maybe he had faked it all his life for higher chaities? Folks knew him so it couldn't have been a one-off fake. If Jesus was as canny as I think he might have been, and sussed him, the pushing of mud and spit in to the bloke's eyes....!!! :D Oh! Oh! I can see a bit now! I can see people looking like trees! (like he knew what either looked like?) and then more spit n muck.....Wonderful! You've saved me! (Anything, only please don't do that again!)

I do love the miracles, if there are natural possibilities. :)
It makes more sense than the Christian belief that these are real miracles. And I credited it for a long while. I still think that any Historical Jesus had to be a Zealot Pharisee and the Temple business the start of an insurrection (Yes, of course, Jesus Son of God and Jesus Bar Abba are of course the same person) and Christianity overpainted the zealot to look like a Pauline Greek gentile -- friendly Christian.
BarAbba........ So he was Northern speaking (Galilean?) worker who could pull a crowd and build a revolt..... in a way which probably pleased Pilate because all the embarrassment was thrown down upon the priesthood. That coin? Caesar's inscription and what looked like Caesar features? Nobody close enough to actually see it clear? I reckon it was a Temple 'shekel' with the features of Baal, the initials in Greek of Caesar and a Graven image, all disgusting to Jews yet been in the Temple coin for about 50 years and not a squeak from the priesthood, they didn't give a hoot. No wonder that priest shut up quick.
It could still be true, at least in part, but I now have to reject so much of the gospels as invented. Still, at base where they all agree really fits the 'disguised insurrectionist' story better than the Risen messiah story.
Yes, I feel sure there was a Baptist, think there was a Jesus and that his little campaign fizzled out after 12 months with that Temple riot and stuff. Why do I keep on trawling through everything for more tidbits? I don't know...... it's better than spending my pension down the pub....... hang on....... !

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #202

Post by TRANSPONDER »

oldbadger wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:27 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:59 am
Ah,,,, :D That was where I was a decade or so ago. I took the gospels as basically reliable and one could construct a Real Jesus' story by cherry -picking the bits that fitted. The fact is that 'the disciples stole the body' theory fits the narrative better than the Christian hypothesis. Pilate was clearly disposed to let Jesus off. When Arimathea approached him he was glad to have his Auxiliaries help Joseph to facepalm Jesus with a Spunge of puggle, knock him out then ferry him out of the tomb as soon as the coast was clear. The tomb was empty before the tomb guard was posted and they were working for Pilate anyway.
Ah..... I reversed the above technique and binned the bits that (I thought) didn't fit.
That body....... I don't think there was one. I see two possibilities, 1. The stab cleared a lung of blood and fluid and that Joseph of A got Jesus down, to a tomb, then clear away, possibly on Pilate's orders and wishes. 2.Some other poor person got stuck up and Jesus Son of the Father was released, again, Pilate was pleased with his actions in the temple. BarAbba was probable the one welcomed in to Jersualem, the one that checked out and recced the Temple on Sunday, that wrecked Anna's bazaar and the sacrificial sales dept on Monday and picketed the Temple Courts (wow!) and then did it all again on Tuesday (why are doing these things? etc ).
Then the faked miracles: the healing of the servant or boy where nobody saw it but heard the claim 'he got better at exactly the time!" Like they'd sychrionised watches. Or the girl pretending to be at death's door. Jesus only let a few trusted disciples see that one. Bar Timaeus (They know his name :) ) posted outside Jericho primed to pretend to be cured to make Jesus look good and finally the whole plot around Lazarus, message sent where Martha knew Jesus would be - at John's healing -place in Paraea - Jesus waiting two days before setting out and Lazarus popped in the tomb just in time for Jesus to arrive and have him walk out, legs individually wrapped so he could walk. And there you have a dry run for Arimathea's plot to save Jesus.
Miracles..... if there's no natural explanation then I bin 'em. Some of them could have been brilliant, of course. The blind man....maybe he had faked it all his life for higher chaities? Folks knew him so it couldn't have been a one-off fake. If Jesus was as canny as I think he might have been, and sussed him, the pushing of mud and spit in to the bloke's eyes....!!! :D Oh! Oh! I can see a bit now! I can see people looking like trees! (like he knew what either looked like?) and then more spit n muck.....Wonderful! You've saved me! (Anything, only please don't do that again!)

I do love the miracles, if there are natural possibilities. :)
It makes more sense than the Christian belief that these are real miracles. And I credited it for a long while. I still think that any Historical Jesus had to be a Zealot Pharisee and the Temple business the start of an insurrection (Yes, of course, Jesus Son of God and Jesus Bar Abba are of course the same person) and Christianity overpainted the zealot to look like a Pauline Greek gentile -- friendly Christian.
BarAbba........ So he was Northern speaking (Galilean?) worker who could pull a crowd and build a revolt..... in a way which probably pleased Pilate because all the embarrassment was thrown down upon the priesthood. That coin? Caesar's inscription and what looked like Caesar features? Nobody close enough to actually see it clear? I reckon it was a Temple 'shekel' with the features of Baal, the initials in Greek of Caesar and a Graven image, all disgusting to Jews yet been in the Temple coin for about 50 years and not a squeak from the priesthood, they didn't give a hoot. No wonder that priest shut up quick.
It could still be true, at least in part, but I now have to reject so much of the gospels as invented. Still, at base where they all agree really fits the 'disguised insurrectionist' story better than the Risen messiah story.
Yes, I feel sure there was a Baptist, think there was a Jesus and that his little campaign fizzled out after 12 months with that Temple riot and stuff. Why do I keep on trawling through everything for more tidbits? I don't know...... it's better than spending my pension down the pub....... hang on....... !
Josephus appears to attest to the Baptist and reveals that the Jews thought Antipas lost the war with Aretas of Nabatea because he killed the baptist. However (if one rejects the Flavian testament as a forgery - which I do) he says nothing of Jesus, either because he is a fiction or because the Church didn't like what Josephus wrote and took it out. I'm not sure. But I am sure that it makes sense of nonsense to see Jesus split in two and a choice offered - Jesus the Pauline Christian or Jesus Bar Abba the inrurrectionist zealot. The Jews reject the Christian and choose the zealot and see what they get. Whether Jesus really was a zealot causing a ruckus in the temple as the start of a revolt or whether this is a complete invention the Christians created based on the Jewish war, I'm sure the 'choice' of Jesuses is the explanation.

I keep two theories in mind- like the resurrections. They appear to be invented because of contradictions. But IF true, they work better as faked miracles to impress the followers. We even know why Bar Timaeus hails Jesus as Son of David - because Jesus needs that authority for his messianic takeover of the Temple. If it's all a myth, then an odd coincidence, but if true (but disguised) it means something. Just as the anointing at Bethany - Head altered to feet (makes no sense to alter feet to head) makes sense as a Messianic ritual and that's why Luke shifted it to Galilee and dressed it up as a penitent woman. They knew it looked zealot though they tried to make King of the Jews some religious title. I don't know but this 'zealot' line goes all through the Gospels like the repeated passacaglia of the Pachelbel canon.

Let me risk some more off topic and give you another Titbit. Luke 13. Though this is supposedly told to Jesus. Some Galileans are cut up in front of the Temple. Pilate attacked Galilean zealots in the temple. There's an insurrection where murder was done if you like. And who but Barrabas, whom Pilate had in Jail until released with this Custom that Jews say doesn't exist. To release the zealot and Jesus gets executed for sedition. Just sayin', I know it's a conspiracy theory, but don't it fit like a glove? And Luke knows about this event. Why don't we? is this the Josephus on Jesus that was cut out?-

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #203

Post by Candle »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

Neither Paul, nor Jesus, said "the world is going to end soon."

Both of them did cite the specific event in human history that will mark the "beginning of the end." Identifying that event is not the same as saying "the end is near," which is something they did not teach.

The lesson in Matthew 6:19-20 is that only spiritual things are eternal, not "the world is going to end soon, so don't bother enjoying this life."

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #204

Post by Diogenes »

Candle wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:33 am [Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

Neither Paul, nor Jesus, said "the world is going to end soon."

Both of them did cite the specific event in human history that will mark the "beginning of the end." Identifying that event is not the same as saying "the end is near," which is something they did not teach.

The lesson in Matthew 6:19-20 is that only spiritual things are eternal, not "the world is going to end soon, so don't bother enjoying this life."
You might want to scroll thru this thread before regurgitating the anti-scriptural orthodoxy of blind evangelicalism. Then you might actually address some of the more obvious verses:

"I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes" (Matt. 10:23).

"Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" (Matt. 16:28).

"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Matt. 24:34).

"I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:27).

As for Paul and other early Christians, although the Christians were quite insistent that no one knew the exact time when this second coming would take place, they felt sure that it would occur during the lifetime of those who were then members of the Christian community. This is reflected very clearly in 1st Thessalonians, so much so, that a forgery in Paul's name was published by the Church [2d Thessalonians] to soften what was becoming a very embarrassing message.
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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #205

Post by Candle »

Diogenes wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:59 pm
Candle wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:33 am [Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

Neither Paul, nor Jesus, said "the world is going to end soon."

Both of them did cite the specific event in human history that will mark the "beginning of the end." Identifying that event is not the same as saying "the end is near," which is something they did not teach.

The lesson in Matthew 6:19-20 is that only spiritual things are eternal, not "the world is going to end soon, so don't bother enjoying this life."
You might want to scroll thru this thread before regurgitating the anti-scriptural orthodoxy of blind evangelicalism. Then you might actually address some of the more obvious verses:

"I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes" (Matt. 10:23).

"Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" (Matt. 16:28).

"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Matt. 24:34).

"I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:27).

As for Paul and other early Christians, although the Christians were quite insistent that no one knew the exact time when this second coming would take place, they felt sure that it would occur during the lifetime of those who were then members of the Christian community. This is reflected very clearly in 1st Thessalonians, so much so, that a forgery in Paul's name was published by the Church [2d Thessalonians] to soften what was becoming a very embarrassing message.
Ah! One-verse-at-a-time theology. My favorite!

Matthew 10:23 Did His disciples go through all the towns of Israel? Let me know what you find out.

Matthew 16:28 The next event was the appearance of Moses, on behalf of the Law, and Elijah, on behalf of the prophets. A voice from out of a "bright cloud" says, "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased." This vision, witnessed by 3 men from the previous chapter, is the confirmation of Jesus as The Prophet spoken of by Moses in Deuteronomy 18. It is the confirmation of His Office. It is the endorsement by the 2 greatest figures in Israel's history and all the power of YHVH. So, yeah, He is coming in His Kingdom in this moment.

Matthew 24:34 Gosh! Just ONE MORE VERSE would have helped you so much! The PREVIOUS verse says, "So likewise, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." And THEN, "This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." What generation? The generation that sees ALL THESE THINGS.

What are those things?

Well, there's the old wars, and rumors of wars. But, after mentioning them, Jesus says, "But the end is not yet!"

He lists a bunch of other stuff. Then we have a bizarre linguistic issue. The text in the KJV reads, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

The punctuation turns verse 15 into a phrase, not a sentence. "When you see this thing Daniel spoke of standing there,"

It should be punctuated; "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations. And then shall the end come when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place." (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This is confirmed by Paul's statement in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

The abomination that causes desolation of which Jesus spoke is the erecting of an idol in the Holy Place, and a man declaring he is God. That is exactly what Antiochus Epiphanes did on December 16, 156BC. Everything in the Bible happens in cycles. A shadow of the event to come occurs. That is what the feasts of Leviticus 23 are. They are shadows of the ministry of Jesus and the end of the age. Jesus is the Passover Lamb. On His first visit, He fulfilled the Spring feasts. When He returns, He will fulfill the Fall feasts. That's why you have to know the feasts to understand the book of Revelation. But, that's another issue.

Jesus and Paul are telling us that He will not return until the Temple is desecrated by the Son of Perdition.

When the Ark of the Covenant is found, a tent like the one used in the wilderness will be erected in a single day. (I personally think there are some that know where it is.) The Temple Treasures Institute already has ALL the stuff ready to go. That will be the third Temple. That is where this event will happen. That is the sign that the end is only 3.5 years away.

Conveniently numbered sound bites only get you so far.

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #206

Post by Diogenes »

Candle wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:24 pm Ah! One-verse-at-a-time theology. My favorite!

Matthew 10:23 Did His disciples go through all the towns of Israel? Let me know what you find out.
This flippant response avoids dealing with the verse itself. This is typical of the 'scripture avoidant' evangelical response that prizes doctrine over scripture. But then, perhaps it is English comprehension you are lacking.

"I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes" (Matt. 10:23).
This means Jesus will come again BEFORE his disciples travel even thru Israel. 2000 years and counting and 'He' still hasn't come back. 2000 years is plenty of time for them to go "through all the towns of Israel. Some are still waiting. I am not. You'll have to do better to get my attention.

As C. S. Lewis wrote:
“... the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false.
It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime."
Last edited by Diogenes on Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #207

Post by Candle »

Diogenes wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:35 pm
Candle wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:24 pm
Diogenes wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:59 pm
Candle wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:33 am [Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

Neither Paul, nor Jesus, said "the world is going to end soon."

Both of them did cite the specific event in human history that will mark the "beginning of the end." Identifying that event is not the same as saying "the end is near," which is something they did not teach.

The lesson in Matthew 6:19-20 is that only spiritual things are eternal, not "the world is going to end soon, so don't bother enjoying this life."
You might want to scroll thru this thread before regurgitating the anti-scriptural orthodoxy of blind evangelicalism. Then you might actually address some of the more obvious verses:

"I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes" (Matt. 10:23).

"Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" (Matt. 16:28).

"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Matt. 24:34).

"I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:27).

As for Paul and other early Christians, although the Christians were quite insistent that no one knew the exact time when this second coming would take place, they felt sure that it would occur during the lifetime of those who were then members of the Christian community. This is reflected very clearly in 1st Thessalonians, so much so, that a forgery in Paul's name was published by the Church [2d Thessalonians] to soften what was becoming a very embarrassing message.
Ah! One-verse-at-a-time theology. My favorite!

Matthew 10:23 Did His disciples go through all the towns of Israel? Let me know what you find out.
This flippant response avoids dealing with the verse itself. This is typical of the 'scripture avoidant' evangelical response that prizes doctrine over scripture. But then, perhaps it is English comprehension you are lacking. b]"I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes" (Matt. 10:23).
This means Jesus will come again BEFORE his disciples travel even thru Israel. He didn't. 2000 years and counting and 'He' hasn't come back. 2000 years is plenty of time for them to go "gone through all the towns of Israel. Some are still waiting. I am not. You'll have to do better to get my attention again.
What about the rest? You are going to take your ball and go home?

Let's not forget, you started with, "You might want to scroll thru this thread before regurgitating the anti-scriptural orthodoxy of blind evangelicalism."

Really?

Had I been disrespectful to you, or anyone else, for that matter?

You want to address one line I wrote and forget the things you can't handle.

Why am I not surprised?

You'll have to do better to get my attention again.

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #208

Post by brunumb »

Candle wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:48 pm What about the rest? You are going to take your ball and go home?
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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #209

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diogenes wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:35 pm.

"I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes" (Matt. 10:23).
This means Jesus will come again BEFORE his disciples travel even thru Israel.
Jesus did not say the word again so primarily he was speaking about the work of his disciples, innannouncingnhis visit to the territories of Israel. That said, the context indicated Jesus was using the preaching campaign at hand to illustrate the wider future campaign his disciples at the end of the system which would take in preaching to many nations (compar Matt. 10:17, 18 ; 28:19, 20)
FIRST CENTURY : Jesus sent his disciples ahead of him to the towns and villages to announce his arrival (Jesus' coming) to their area

TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY: Jesus modern day disciples would announce a different sort of arrival, namely Jesus return coming to judge humanity.
CONCLUSION When Jesus said to his first century disciples they would not finish an entire circuit before he arrivés he meant arrives as announced as a human during that campaign. His words however indicate there would be another different campaign in the future however, one that would announce a different "appearance"
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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #210

Post by TRANSPONDER »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:51 am
Diogenes wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:35 pm.

"I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes" (Matt. 10:23).
This means Jesus will come again BEFORE his disciples travel even thru Israel.
Jesus was indeed speaking about the work of his disciples, but the question is WHICH disciples. The context indicated Jesus was using the preaching campaign at hand to illustrate the wider future campaign his disciples at the end of the system which would take in preaching to many nations (compar Matt. 10:17, 18 ; 28:19, 20)
FIRST CENTURY : Jesus sent his disciples ahead of him to the towns and villages to announce his arrival (Jesus' coming) to their area

TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY: Jesus modern day disciples would announce a different sort of arrival, namely Jesus return coming to judge humanity.
CONCLUSION When Jesus said to his first century disciples they would not finish an entire circuit before he arrivés he meant arrives as announced as a human during that campaign. His words however indicate there would be another different campaign in the future however, one that would announce a different "appearance"
There is an ongoing problem or confusion in the Bible debate - the eschatology. There appears to be a Pharisee based idea (derived from the Hasmonean zealotry of the Daniel -document) that the Messiah would come and make life on earth perfect, with the Jews ruling the world as God intended. And we have the Greek Christian idea of people going to heaven And the two conflict with people getting judged after death and being put ion heaven or Hell right away, and also this idea of a 2nd coming...any day now... with a last trump and people coming out of graves.

These two contrasting ideas come out of a conflict between the Jewish Last Days and the Christian version.

The point being that it affects how we see the Bible references to all this. It is utterly clear to me at any rate, that in Paul's time, the view of the disciples was that Jesus would be coming back in their lifetimes and would usher in the last days with the evildoers tossed on the fire and the Righteous would rule. I see Paul consumed with urgency as he thought these days were coming in the next few years. I think the synoptic original had the idea that the destruction of the Temple signalled the Last days, but by the time Matthew and Luke were editing their versions, they were wondering 'just how long do we have to wait?' Luke, who I think was the latest (other than the very late Gospel of Peter) was already beginning to see the Kingdom as not a global government ruled by Jesus, but as the Church. The 'prophecy' that John pushed (absurdly) into Caiphas' mouth (John 11.50) referred to the coming occupation of Judea and Galilee by Rome with all Jewish rule eliminated, after the Jewish war and the High Priests' unwitting prediction for the spread of the Christian church. And as I recall, that and not Jesus coming on the clouds, with the gaping Sanhedrin still alive to see it, is what it was all about.

I would argue that even before the collated Bible was approved by Rome, they were wondering why the 2nd coming was taking so long and 2,000 years later, we are still waiting.

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