Predestination and justice
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Guru
- Posts: 1020
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:56 pm
- Has thanked: 770 times
- Been thanked: 135 times
Predestination and justice
Post #1https://reformedwiki.com/verses/predestination If God predestined the lives of humans, how can it be just for God to send some to heaven and some to hell?
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14187
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 912 times
- Been thanked: 1644 times
- Contact:
Re: Predestination and justice
Post #21Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:34 pm [Replying to William in post #19]
Thank you for the interesting ideas.
"Soul" "Sprit" "Eternal Entity" are reductions of data accumulation. On a personal level [as in "how do I know"] since experiencing "OOB" I have no option [if I am to remain honest] but to consider that data of experience as relative to my 'self-identity' so I am in the skin of an ape, but the personality being developed as "me" is done so directly through my nervous system [see here for more about that] and so underneath the flesh and bone of my human form, is the heart of a system which allows for me to even contemplate self-identification.How do you know there is such a thing called the soul or spirit or eternal entity or heaven or hell or God?
Coupling that data [my personal data of experience] with the stories humans tell of their subjective experiences, I can form a picture of the most likely overall picture of what is occurring - what we are all involved within.
For reasons of simplicity [re the complexity] I refer to the whole as a kind of Simulation Game-Play, because that is what it appears to be.
So it is not so much a matter of 'knowing' as it is a matter of guessing. I could be wrong, I could be right. The death of the body will show me I am right OR I will simply cease to exist/experience data.
The bible is just one of many theist books and in that, the contradictions are about individual authors relaying their ideas based upon their particular beliefs, which - combined - are what produce the contradictions. Like with all theistic writings, it is wise to take the stories on the understanding that the individuals are relaying their experiences as the experiences were created through their beliefs and in correlation with their personal attitudes etc...it is unwise to think of such as reliable source re 'facts about reality' - as to do so means one is having to believe and in that, shaping ones beliefs and attitudes and [should there be more to experience after the death of the body] those beliefs and attitudes will have an effect on what it is the individual will create and experience for themselves.The Bible is full of contradictions and inaccuracies. How can I possibly rely on the Bible to give me facts about reality?
My perspective [re logic] is that it is better to be somewhat prepared for the possibility that there is more to experience after the death of the body, than to believe that there will be nothing more to experience and be way less prepared as a consequence.
If I am wrong, then 'no problem' but if I am right, then 'no problem'...
-
- Guru
- Posts: 1020
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:56 pm
- Has thanked: 770 times
- Been thanked: 135 times
Re: Predestination and justice
Post #22[Replying to William in post #21]
Please tell me more about your out-of-body experience. How do you know that it was not a hallucination?
Please tell me more about your out-of-body experience. How do you know that it was not a hallucination?
- JoeyKnothead
- Banned
- Posts: 20879
- Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
- Location: Here
- Has thanked: 4093 times
- Been thanked: 2572 times
Re: Predestination and justice
Post #23I've writ it before, and I'll writ it again - yours is a very unique and intelligent voice that needs to be heard. Not just here, but everywhere.William wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 3:57 pmCompassionist wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:34 pm [Replying to William in post #19]
Thank you for the interesting ideas."Soul" "Sprit" "Eternal Entity" are reductions of data accumulation. On a personal level [as in "how do I know"] since experiencing "OOB" I have no option [if I am to remain honest] but to consider that data of experience as relative to my 'self-identity' so I am in the skin of an ape, but the personality being developed as "me" is done so directly through my nervous system [see here for more about that] and so underneath the flesh and bone of my human form, is the heart of a system which allows for me to even contemplate self-identification.How do you know there is such a thing called the soul or spirit or eternal entity or heaven or hell or God?
Coupling that data [my personal data of experience] with the stories humans tell of their subjective experiences, I can form a picture of the most likely overall picture of what is occurring - what we are all involved within.
For reasons of simplicity [re the complexity] I refer to the whole as a kind of Simulation Game-Play, because that is what it appears to be.
So it is not so much a matter of 'knowing' as it is a matter of guessing. I could be wrong, I could be right. The death of the body will show me I am right OR I will simply cease to exist/experience data.
The bible is just one of many theist books and in that, the contradictions are about individual authors relaying their ideas based upon their particular beliefs, which - combined - are what produce the contradictions. Like with all theistic writings, it is wise to take the stories on the understanding that the individuals are relaying their experiences as the experiences were created through their beliefs and in correlation with their personal attitudes etc...it is unwise to think of such as reliable source re 'facts about reality' - as to do so means one is having to believe and in that, shaping ones beliefs and attitudes and [should there be more to experience after the death of the body] those beliefs and attitudes will have an effect on what it is the individual will create and experience for themselves.The Bible is full of contradictions and inaccuracies. How can I possibly rely on the Bible to give me facts about reality?
My perspective [re logic] is that it is better to be somewhat prepared for the possibility that there is more to experience after the death of the body, than to believe that there will be nothing more to experience and be way less prepared as a consequence.
If I am wrong, then 'no problem' but if I am right, then 'no problem'...
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
-Punkinhead Martin
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14187
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 912 times
- Been thanked: 1644 times
- Contact:
Re: Predestination and justice
Post #24Do you mean as in, drug induced, or something else?Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 4:29 pm [Replying to William in post #21]
Please tell me more about your out-of-body experience. How do you know that it was not a hallucination?
- oldbadger
- Guru
- Posts: 1868
- Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:11 am
- Has thanked: 321 times
- Been thanked: 238 times
Re: Predestination and justice
Post #25The bible is just one of many theist books and in that, the contradictions are about individual authors relaying their ideas based upon their particular beliefs, which - combined - are what produce the contradictions. Like with all theistic writings, it is wise to take the stories on the understanding that the individuals are relaying their experiences as the experiences were created through their beliefs and in correlation with their personal attitudes etc...it is unwise to think of such as reliable source re 'facts about reality' - as to do so means one is having to believe and in that, shaping ones beliefs and attitudes and [should there be more to experience after the death of the body] those beliefs and attitudes will have an effect on what it is the individual will create and experience for themselves.
My perspective [re logic] is that it is better to be somewhat prepared for the possibility that there is more to experience after the death of the body, than to believe that there will be nothing more to experience and be way less prepared as a consequence.
If I am wrong, then 'no problem' but if I am right, then 'no problem'...
[/quote]
Could I ask some questions?
1. Do you believe in Spirits, mediums and spiritual healers?
2. Do animals have spirits and souls?
3. Is there any historical evidence of value in, say, the Gospel of Mark, or is it all theistic belief?
- Miles
- Savant
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
- Has thanked: 434 times
- Been thanked: 1614 times
Re: Predestination and justice
Post #26....... EASY.. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE:Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:34 pm [Replying to William in post #19]
Thank you for the interesting ideas. How do you know there is such a thing called the soul or spirit or eternal entity or heaven or hell or God? The Bible is full of contradictions and inaccuracies. How can I possibly rely on the Bible to give me facts about reality?
...........................
.
-
- Guru
- Posts: 1020
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:56 pm
- Has thanked: 770 times
- Been thanked: 135 times
Re: Predestination and justice
Post #27I don't mean drug-induced or anything else. Some people have out-of-body experience when they have a heart attack. What triggered yours? Some people claim to be able to have out-of-body experiences at will. I don't know if they just hallucinate or if their consciousness actually leaves their bodies.William wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 10:22 pmDo you mean as in, drug induced, or something else?Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 4:29 pm [Replying to William in post #21]
Please tell me more about your out-of-body experience. How do you know that it was not a hallucination?
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14187
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 912 times
- Been thanked: 1644 times
- Contact:
Re: Predestination and justice
Post #28That they are referred to as "Out of Body" is because the experience is this. Whether the experiences I had were hallucinations or not, I cannot say. I can only say that the experiences were had.Compassionist wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 4:33 amI don't mean drug-induced or anything else. Some people have out-of-body experience when they have a heart attack. What triggered yours? Some people claim to be able to have out-of-body experiences at will. I don't know if they just hallucinate or if their consciousness actually leaves their bodies.William wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 10:22 pmDo you mean as in, drug induced, or something else?Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 4:29 pm [Replying to William in post #21]
Please tell me more about your out-of-body experience. How do you know that it was not a hallucination?
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14187
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 912 times
- Been thanked: 1644 times
- Contact:
Re: Predestination and justice
Post #29[Replying to oldbadger in post #25]
In that, it is not so much a belief as a growing understanding of the nature of the experiential reality I am currently involved within.
2: I do not see it that I have a "Spirit" but that I AM a Spirit...I understand consciousness as being "Spirit" and the animal form [which includes the human form] as a receptacle/avatar which consciousness uses. I understand the "Soul" is an aspect of consciousness which stores the data of experience I have, while involved in the experiential reality.
3: viewtopic.php?p=1078016#p1078016
1: My understanding is that I [the human personality] am relating with vaster aspects of my self which I view as being 'subconscious' and I am practicing conscious interaction with rather than remaining unconscious of these aspects of self so in that sense my conscious self [the human personality] is the recipient and the medium is the experiential reality and the subconscious self is the healer.Could I ask some questions?
1. Do you believe in Spirits, mediums and spiritual healers?
2. Do animals have spirits and souls?
3. Is there any historical evidence of value in, say, the Gospel of Mark, or is it all theistic belief?
In that, it is not so much a belief as a growing understanding of the nature of the experiential reality I am currently involved within.
2: I do not see it that I have a "Spirit" but that I AM a Spirit...I understand consciousness as being "Spirit" and the animal form [which includes the human form] as a receptacle/avatar which consciousness uses. I understand the "Soul" is an aspect of consciousness which stores the data of experience I have, while involved in the experiential reality.
3: viewtopic.php?p=1078016#p1078016
- oldbadger
- Guru
- Posts: 1868
- Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:11 am
- Has thanked: 321 times
- Been thanked: 238 times
Re: Predestination and justice
Post #30OK. So you do believe in Spirits, mediums and healers. Well, that's what your answer looks like to me.William wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 4:18 pm [Replying to oldbadger in post #25]
1: My understanding is that I [the human personality] am relating with vaster aspects of my self which I view as being 'subconscious' and I am practicing conscious interaction with rather than remaining unconscious of these aspects of self so in that sense my conscious self [the human personality] is the recipient and the medium is the experiential reality and the subconscious self is the healer.Could I ask some questions?
1. Do you believe in Spirits, mediums and spiritual healers?
2. Do animals have spirits and souls?
3. Is there any historical evidence of value in, say, the Gospel of Mark, or is it all theistic belief?
In that, it is not so much a belief as a growing understanding of the nature of the experiential reality I am currently involved within.
2: I do not see it that I have a "Spirit" but that I AM a Spirit...I understand consciousness as being "Spirit" and the animal form [which includes the human form] as a receptacle/avatar which consciousness uses. I understand the "Soul" is an aspect of consciousness which stores the data of experience I have, while involved in the experiential reality.
: viewtopic.php?p=1078016#p1078016
And animals do have spirits and souls, same as yourself. Yes?
And the gospel of Mark doesn't have a lot of truth in it...mostly from bedside stories, is that your opinion?
I hope I got that about right.
Fair enough, but I tend to think that G-Mark is a real deposition from a disciple who was unhappy with Paul's stuff and wanted to set the record straight.....of course the insertions and other waffle does need to be redacted for a true story to surface. But as a Deist I cannot accept any divine interventions that are recorded in the gospels or anywhere else....... Nature only for me, which is pretty scary.......!