A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
POI
Prodigy
Posts: 3278
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
Has thanked: 1545 times
Been thanked: 1051 times

A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #1

Post by POI »

Taken from "1213" --> http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Owning_slaves.html

Notably, the quote below:

Owning slaves?

According to the Old Testament, peoples at least had right to own slaves. Many wonder, is that same right also valid for today’s disciples of Jesus.

1)
Jesus didn’t directly deny owning slaves. So maybe it can be taught that it is valid right today also. However Jesus taught to do same to others that you want others to do to you. Therefore, if you don’t want yourself to be slave, don’t keep others in that position.

2) Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat. 7:12


3) It is also good to notice that disciples of Jesus shouldn’t consider themselves superior to others. If we are all brothers and sisters, how could we keep other as a slave? Rather we should be servants to each other.


*************************

My response, thus far:

1) You are right, Jesus never tells humans that slavery is wrong. Instead, He looks to endorse the following two Bible passages A) and B):

A) Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Col. 3:22-24)

B) All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves. (1 Tim. 6:1-2)

A) This massage tells the slave to remain subservient, work as hard as one can; even when the master is away. This way, God will be proud of you, via the slave.

B) Respect your slave master. If the master happens to be a Christian, respect them even more.

As you can see, Jesus appears not to be against slavery at all. In fact, He condones such practices.

2) If this were the case for all humans, (the free and the enslaved), then Jesus would not have endorsed instructions for slavery.

3) Please remember the 'golden rule' was already expressed in the OT (i.e.) "you shall love your neighbor as yourself"(Lev. 19:18). Either never speak about the topic of slavery at all, or, tell the Bible readers that slavery is 'wrong'. Instead, the OT already instructs on how you may obtain slaves, how you may beat your slaves, and informs the reader that the slave master can own the slave for life, and also treat them as their property for life. The NT then merely reinforces such OT instruction.

Question(s) for debate:

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Answer (post #401)

I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a no- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Last edited by POI on Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:20 pm
Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? ....
Because it was not his place to; Jesus was not a secular ruler and Jesus did not preach revolution or social reform. Jesus rather taught his followers not to mistreat others and announced a heavenly kingdom where the faithful would be rewarded for their endurance of any hardship.


ABOLITION
Is all slavery not wrong because most people hold that it is?
viewtopic.php?p=1079923#p1079923

Did Jesus call for his disciples to sell themselves into slavery?
viewtopic.php?p=1081853#p1081853

Why didn't Jesus simply abolish slavery practices?
viewtopic.php?p=1078415#p1078415

Why does Christian scripture not call for the abolition of Slavery?
viewtopic.php?p=1020929#p1020929

Why is there no blanket condemnation of ALL forms if slavery when there are absolute prohibitions for other things?
viewtopic.php?p=1079935#p1079935

What would Jesus attitude have been towards slavery?
viewtopic.php?p=1078494#p1078494
LAW OF LOVE

What is God's attitude to present human systems of slavery?
viewtopic.php?p=368781#p36878

Does the bible indicate how God would have felt about slaveowners beatings their slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1078599#p1078599

Did the principle of loving one's neighbour EXCLUDE foreign slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1079896#p1079896
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY , SLAVE BEATING and ...ABOLITION
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:00 pm, edited 11 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7960
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 932 times
Been thanked: 3486 times

Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #12

Post by TRANSPONDER »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 4:46 pm
POI wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:20 pm
Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? ....
Because it was not his place to; Jesus was not a secular ruler and Jesus did not preach revolution or social reform. Jesus rather taught his followers not to mistreat others and announced a heavenly kingdom where the faithful would be rewarded for their endurance of any hardship.



Why does Christian scripture not call for the abolition of Slavery?
viewtopic.php?p=1020929#p1020929

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, CHILD ABUSE and ...THE MOSAIC LAW

There you go. It is not about politics, but about how you treat your fellows. That is where the Bible fails. It does not see slavery as an issue that matters. Even the OT merely tried to lay down some rules on how to treat slaves. The Nt ignores it other than to regard it as the way things were. Which it was to the people who wrote it.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 5:58 pm ... That is where the Bible fails. It does not see slavery as an issue that matters. Even the OT merely tried to lay down some rules on how to treat slaves.
I wouldnt say it doesn't matter, only that ultimately in the Christian narrative, its resolution lies not in political reform but in the kingdom of God. In the present system, Christianity should work from heart-to-heart ensuring that individuals learn to respect their fellowman.



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7960
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 932 times
Been thanked: 3486 times

Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #14

Post by TRANSPONDER »

As a non -believer, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any reforms through Christianity let alone a promised Kingdom of God, which should have come while some of the disciples were still alive. For my money, reforms have come through humanist processes, pushed through against the blocking attempts of religion and which we are seeing up to the present day.

User avatar
POI
Prodigy
Posts: 3278
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
Has thanked: 1545 times
Been thanked: 1051 times

Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #15

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 4:46 pm
POI wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:20 pm
Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? ....
Because it was not his place to; Jesus was not a secular ruler and Jesus did not preach revolution or social reform. Jesus rather taught his followers not to mistreat others and announced a heavenly kingdom where the faithful would be rewarded for their endurance of any hardship.



Why does Christian scripture not call for the abolition of Slavery?
viewtopic.php?p=1020929#p1020929

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, CHILD ABUSE and ...THE MOSAIC LAW
The link you provided states the following:

"Because such slavery, even opporessive slavery, is a part of human rulership and God has authorised humans to self govern"

News flash... Jesus has no problem telling folks what He does not like (i.e. small sample) "Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.".

What was Jesus's stance on slavery practices, as they pertain to OT instruction --- (via Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25)? And please remember, as mentioned in the OP, the OT has already established the 'golden rule". And yet, slavery was allowed. Hence, was He for it, against it, or indifferent? Judging from the NT writings, He does not appear to be against such practices. Which means He is either for such slavery, or indifferent.

It's one thing for you to argue that Jesus was powerless to make any changes, but it seems Jesus did not disagree anyways. Hence, even if He had the power and/or desire to change/abolish such existing 'policy', seems as though, in regards to slavery instruction, Jesus was A-OKAY with how such instruction was laid out, via the OT.

Would you agree?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #16

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:20 pm ...
Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?
But, were they not Christians who ended slavery? I think the end of slavery is the result of people living by what Jesus said, for example because:

For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments, and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men. But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Mat. 23:4-12

I don't think it is possible to keep someone as slave (servant against his will) and live by what Jesus said.

Also, I think it is good to notice also this:

The word that came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, after that the king Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people who were at Jerusalem, to proclaim liberty to them; that every man should let his man-servant, and every man his maid-servant, who is a Hebrew or a Hebrewess, go free; that none should make bondservants of them, to wit, of a Jew his brother. All the princes and all the people obeyed, who had entered into the covenant, that everyone should let his man-servant, and everyone his maid-servant, go free, that none should make bondservants of them any more; they obeyed, and let them go: but afterwards they turned, and caused the servants and the handmaids, whom they had let go free, to return, and brought them into subjection for servants and for handmaids. Therefore the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, At the end of seven years you shall let go every man his brother who is a Hebrew, who has been sold to you, and has served you six years, you shall let him go free from you: but your fathers didn't listen to me, neither inclined their ear. You were now turned, and had done that which is right in my eyes, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbor; and you had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name: but you turned and profaned my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom you had let go free at their pleasure, to return; and you brought them into subjection, to be to you for servants and for handmaids. Therefore thus says Yahweh: you have not listened to me, to proclaim liberty, every man to his brother, and every man to his neighbor: behold, I proclaim to you a liberty, says Yahweh, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth.
Jeremiah 34:8-17

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7960
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 932 times
Been thanked: 3486 times

Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #17

Post by TRANSPONDER »

To tell the truth I'm not sure. The Word is that slavery ended when Christianity became the Roman state religion, but I keep seeing hints that it carried on. However, If the policy of the Christian Roman state was No Slavery I suspect it might be because Christianity had recruited many members from the disenfranchised classes, like slaves. The fact is (however) that all nations freely engaged in slavery, including Christian nations until the abolitionist move started in the 18th c. And (as we know) some of the worst Bible -punchers in the world were the most in favour of slavery, and still are, it seems. Point being that they found nothing in the Bible to say bthat it was wrong and plenty to say that it was ok.

I know that Christians like to claim that abolitionists were Christians. So they were; everybody was. But their reasons were not based on the Bible, but on human empathy and reason. Humans were all equal and fellows was the rationale. It was the slavers who could use the Bible to support their position.

User avatar
POI
Prodigy
Posts: 3278
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
Has thanked: 1545 times
Been thanked: 1051 times

Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #18

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:13 am
POI wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:20 pm ...
Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?
But, were they not Christians who ended slavery? I think the end of slavery is the result of people living by what Jesus said, for example because:

For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments, and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men. But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Mat. 23:4-12
The Bible condones slavery practices. Not once, does Jesus mention his disagreement with the aforementioned "slavery" instruction given by the Bible. By "slavery", I mean (human master/human slave). The Verses you provided above speaks about Christ as "the master" - which is a different subject entirely. If you wish to reduce this argument to -- (paraphrased) "we are all slaves in one way or another", then you have lost. The Bible endorses 'slavery'. Jesus does not come and revoke such prior given instruction. Instead, He either remains silent on the topic, or/and allows NT Bible writers to further sanctify such practices.
1213 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:13 am I don't think it is possible to keep someone as slave (servant against his will) and live by what Jesus said.
Well, you and I agree. But Jesus disagrees with both of us. :) Ala Leviticus 25...
1213 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:13 am Also, I think it is good to notice also this:

The word that came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, after that the king Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people who were at Jerusalem, to proclaim liberty to them; that every man should let his man-servant, and every man his maid-servant, who is a Hebrew or a Hebrewess, go free; that none should make bondservants of them, to wit, of a Jew his brother. All the princes and all the people obeyed, who had entered into the covenant, that everyone should let his man-servant, and everyone his maid-servant, go free, that none should make bondservants of them any more; they obeyed, and let them go: but afterwards they turned, and caused the servants and the handmaids, whom they had let go free, to return, and brought them into subjection for servants and for handmaids. Therefore the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, At the end of seven years you shall let go every man his brother who is a Hebrew, who has been sold to you, and has served you six years, you shall let him go free from you: but your fathers didn't listen to me, neither inclined their ear. You were now turned, and had done that which is right in my eyes, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbor; and you had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name: but you turned and profaned my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom you had let go free at their pleasure, to return; and you brought them into subjection, to be to you for servants and for handmaids. Therefore thus says Yahweh: you have not listened to me, to proclaim liberty, every man to his brother, and every man to his neighbor: behold, I proclaim to you a liberty, says Yahweh, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth.
Jeremiah 34:8-17
At best, this instruction pertains to Hebrews alone. What if you are not Hebrew? Then again brush up on Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25 for further instruction.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:51 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 4:46 pm

News flash... Jesus has no problem telling folks what He does not like (i.e. small sample) "Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.".

Saying what one does or does not like does not negate another person's right to make their own decisions. Jesus provides guidelines for those who wish to please Him and his Father Jehovah. Anyone that wishes to ignore him is free to do so.
POI wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:51 am
What was Jesus's stance on slavery practices, as they pertain to OT instruction --- (via Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25)? ...
Jesus is recorded as fully supporting God's law which allowed for slavery so there is no reason to believe he was against anything (including biblical slavery) in the Hebrew scriptures. By the time Jesus walked the earth of course, the Jews lived under the Roman system which also allowed for slavery; he made no direct comment on this but indicated his followers should submit to their masters. Christian masters would naturally not mistreat their slaves.


POI wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:51 am... Hence, was He for it, against it, or indifferent?

Jesus is never depicted as being indifferent to the human condition and certainly expressed interest in various situations people faced, so no, I don't believe Jesus was "indifferent" about slavery. He would, I believe, be FOR the Hebrew system of slavery and AGAINST any abuses whether under the Hebrew or the Roman system ; the latter of which certainly allowed for abuses to occur.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun May 22, 2022 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #20

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:51 am.

It's one thing for you to argue that Jesus was powerless to make any changes, but it seems ...as though, in regards to slavery instruction, Jesus was A-OKAY with how such instruction was laid out, via the OT.

Would you agree?
Yes I do agree that Jesus fully supported the instructions was laid out, via the OT.

As for Jesus being "powerless", I do not believe that to have been the case. Jesus simply chose imo to submit to God's will that slavery whatever the form, be permitted to continue. I don't believe Jesus was happy slavery existed because slavery, even under the Hebrew system, does not represent the ideal. But all faithful people are happy to wait on God for true freedom.

Image

Jesus expressed his intention to return; he would destroy all wickedness, wipe out greed, war and poverty (which are key factors in the existence of slavery) and put an end to all human suffering, including that caused by slavery .
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Post Reply