The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

[Compassionist]

I read the following:

Source: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ... dened.html

Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6

Then I read the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden ... heart.html

Also read: Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)

“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’

I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

[JehovahsWitness]

In the context of the passage where God hardens the pharaoh's heart, what does the expression, and hence the passage, mean?

Did you not see my earlier explanation?

In what sense did God "harden" Pharoah's heart (Ex. 7:3, 4) ?
viewtopic.php?p=838159#p838159

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm with brunumb. The passage seems pretty straight forward, even if metaphor.

Well then may I remind you ...

When we metaphor, we allow a potential multitude of interpretations...

[brunumb]

In the context of the passage where God hardens the pharaoh's heart, what does the expression, and hence the passage, mean?

Did you not see my earlier explanation?

All that said was that God didn't harden the pharaoh's heart and changes the meaning into something like allowing time for his stubborn character to come through. One doesn't get that meaning from "God hardened the pharaoh's heart".

God did not actually harden the heart of Pharaoh so that Pharaoh lost his free will making change impossible and his fate unavoidable. The bible often speaks about God "doing" things that he in fact allows or permits (1 Sam 4:3). Jehovah "hardened" the Egyptian kings heart in that he [YHWH] allowed Pharoah's stubborn character enough time to be revealed. Note the following commentaries on the subject:

Benson Commentary
Exodus 9:12. And the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart ” Before he had hardened his own heart, and resisted the grace of God; and now God justly gave him up to his own heart's lusts, to strong delusions, permitting Satan to blind and harden him.

I'm guessing that last bit means something like Satan allowing the pharaoh's stubborn character enough time to be revealed.

Anyone for pretzels?

[brunumb]

I'm with brunumb. The passage seems pretty straight forward, even if metaphor.

Well then may I remind you ...

When we metaphor, we allow a potential multitude of interpretations...

Seems like the Bible is one giant omnibus of metaphor. Interpret at one's leisure and create one's own Christian sect to match.

[JoeyKnothead]

I'm with brunumb. The passage seems pretty straight forward, even if metaphor.

Well then may I remind you ...

When we metaphor, we allow a potential multitude of interpretations...

And so we see, we're down to, "Naw, they meant this other thing".

[TRANSPONDER]

... It was God who hardened his heart in order to keep this business of plagues going. ...

There is nothing in the Bible that supports your version of the story.

O Rly Exodus 9. 12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.

Up to then Pharaoh's heart was hardened,...

I don't think that means God hardened his heart for that He could continue to cause plagues. Also, when it was good times that hardened pharaohs heart, to demand that God does not harden pharaohs heart would mean that God must make them eternal plagues. Only way to keep pharaohs heart soft was to keep the plagues going forever.

Well, not just that, but the whole plan to get the Israelites out of Egypt. But one has to wonder at why, when Pharaoh said 'Ok, I give in, you can go', God overrode Pharaoh's free will to make him say: 'I changed my mind; you can't go' and God tells Moses that he is doing this and he'll have to inflict more plagues. And, as I say, it looks like when Pharaoh's heart was hardened, it was God doing it there, too.

I'm seeing (in the posting since my last) an awful lot of wriggling, evasion, red -herrings and trying to alter what the Bible actually says. Which tells me that the believers can see there is something wrong with God's conduct here and they wish the Bible didn't say what it does say. Just the same as with the slavery issue.

I'm not having to struggle because it's just a book of old myths to me, but I reckon we atheists show more respect for the Bible in taking what it says as said, while the believers have to try to rewrite it to say what they want it to say. And it's not just this; it goes all the way through the book.

[JehovahsWitness]

When we metaphor, we allow a potential multitude of interpretations...

And so we see, we're down to, "Naw, they meant this other thing".

You said it not me, have you changed your mind? Either metaphor is open to more than one interpretation as YOU said or it is not. The multiple other possibilities don't brother me in the slightest, if you find them problematic may I suggest ... golf.

[1213]

...But one has to wonder at why, when Pharaoh said 'Ok, I give in, you can go', God overrode Pharaoh's free will to make him say: 'I changed my mind; you can't go' ...

I don't think God overrode pharaohs mind in some evil way. I think that is a bad interpretation when Bible clearly shows that pharaohs mind changed every time the plague ended. If God influenced to pharaoh, it was by ending the plagues, not by some evil mind altering trick.

[1213]

...One can't be all-knowing and all-powerful without being guilty of everything that is wrong with all that exists. ...

Sorry, I disagree with that.

What is the basis of your disagreeing, please?

Because person should be guilty only for his own actions. God has given us life and freedom, if we use it for evil, we are guilty for that evil, not God, especially when God has given good rules how to live correctly.

But, what do you think, should gun manufacturers be held guilty for all murder committed by their guns?

[JoeyKnothead]

"May I suggest... golf".

Great response. You owe me a monitor.

When we metaphor, we allow a potential multitude of interpretations...

And so we see, we're down to, "Naw, they meant this other thing".

You said it not me, have you changed your mind? Either metaphor is open to more than one interpretation as YOU said or it is not. The multiple other possibilities don't brother me in the slightest, if you find them problematic may I suggest ... golf.

I'm just pointing out an example of how a metaphor that seems so straightforward can be misconstrued. Either by a straightforward reading, or by more 'convoluted' reading.

I don't much care how folks wanna explain bible passages, cept to note an omniscient god done put his trust in humans to get his message told.

I propose it'd be easier to just show up as a human- god hybri... wait, that didn't work out so well.