The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

[Compassionist]

I read the following:

Source: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ... dened.html

Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6

Then I read the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden ... heart.html

Also read: Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)

“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’

I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

[TRANSPONDER]

...But one has to wonder at why, when Pharaoh said 'Ok, I give in, you can go', God overrode Pharaoh's free will to make him say: 'I changed my mind; you can't go' ...

I don't think God overrode pharaohs mind in some evil way. I think that is a bad interpretation when Bible clearly shows that pharaohs mind changed every time the plague ended. If God influenced to pharaoh, it was by ending the plagues, not by some evil mind altering trick.

He most certainly did. Exodus 9.12, 10.20, 10. 27, 11.10, 14.8

In 14.4 he explains to Moses that he is going to do it.

9.7 Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.

The Pharaoh here hardens his heart himself and in 8 30, 9. 33

9.12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.

I've asked this sort of question before and never got an answer (I know what it is, but I'm still curious) Do you not know what's in your own Bible, or are you hoping I won't check or are you convinced that it says what you want it to say rather than what it does say? Tell me? I really want to know. I would hate to be in the position when I couldn't deal honestly with the material I was working with.

[William]

[Replying to 1213 in post #49]

Because person should be guilty only for his own actions.

I was watching a vid yesterday - this one;



and the Rabbi was saying the same thing in relation to how the Messiah isn't someone who dies for the sins of others...

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm just pointing out an example of how a metaphor that seems so straightforward can be misconstrued.

Indeed, but who can claim to have the monopoly on identifying who is guilty of doing the above ? You? I think not given your admission.

When we metaphor, we allow a potential multitude of interpretations...

You have your opinion, I have mine. We both no doubt see straightforward and I see misconstrued convolution, the only difference is we see it coming from a different directions.

No biggie,


JW

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #1]

I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

I think the overall problem isn't about the God of the bible, but about the idea of this experiential reality being mindfully created [inferring a creator of some kind] and that is why 'the problem of evil' was invented.

It appears that there is no problem of evil with being part of this experiential reality as long as one believes it is a purely mindless purposeless accident of a thing, but as soon as a creative mind is implied as the cause of it existing, 'the problem of evil' becomes an issue and a reason for why folk shy away from or vigorously oppose the notion of, which I find interesting.

As an argument, I find the "problem of evil" to being on par with the "problem of unicorns".

The Bible claims in Genesis that God made the world and all the living things within. What is more, God even makes evil: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7, The Bible (KJV). That's why if the Bible is true, the Biblical God is omniculpable and evil. If the allegedly omniscient and omnipotent Biblical God had made all created beings equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent then the Devil would not even have wanted to harm Adam and Eve and Adam. If Adam and Eve were all-knowing and all-powerful to begin with they would not have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. If the Bible is true, then it is all God's fault and God should be punished accordingly by God.

Are you therefore saying that if the idea that a creative mind is involved with why this experiential reality and we within it, happens to exist, that as long as that mind behind its existence is not the biblical idea of said Creator, that you can accept that there is no evil intent of the part of said mind, involved in creating this reality?

I am not saying that at all. Please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll

We live in a reality full of suffering, injustice and deaths. If the Biblical God made this reality then he is guilty of failing to prevent all the suffering, injustice and deaths. It's possible that the Biblical God is imaginary and evil instead of being real and evil.

There is an infinite gap between what I want to do and what I can do.

Things I want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:
1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering and death and injustice.
2. Make all living things equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and be the owner of an infinite number of universes each.
3. End all diseases, injuries, deaths, etc.
4. Prevent all natural disasters.
5. Prevent all accidents.
6. Prevent all violence, killings, rapes, kidnappings, tortures, crimes, persecutions, bullying, bigotry, hypocrisy, selfishness, cruelty, etc.
7. Prevent all malevolence and ignorance.
8. Give everyone the ability to teleport everywhere in an infinite number of universes across an infinite number of timelines.
9. Prevent all poverty.
10. Make all living things forever happy.

Things I do (or will do) even though I don't want to do them:
1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13. Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Die

I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power.

[Compassionist]

...One can't be all-knowing and all-powerful without being guilty of everything that is wrong with all that exists. ...

Sorry, I disagree with that.

What is the basis of your disagreeing, please?

Because person should be guilty only for his own actions. God has given us life and freedom, if we use it for evil, we are guilty for that evil, not God, especially when God has given good rules how to live correctly.

But, what do you think, should gun manufacturers be held guilty for all murder committed by their guns?

Things I want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:
1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering and death and injustice.
2. Make all living things equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and be the owner of an infinite number of universes each.
3. End all diseases, injuries, deaths, etc.
4. Prevent all natural disasters.
5. Prevent all accidents.
6. Prevent all violence, killings, rapes, kidnappings, tortures, crimes, persecutions, bullying, bigotry, hypocrisy, selfishness, cruelty, etc.
7. Prevent all malevolence and ignorance.
8. Give everyone the ability to teleport everywhere in an infinite number of universes across an infinite number of timelines.
9. Prevent all poverty.
10. Make all living things forever happy.

Things I do (or will do) even though I don't want to do them:
1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13. Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Die

I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power.

Please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll

We live in a reality full of suffering, injustice and deaths. If the Biblical God made this reality then he is guilty of failing to prevent all the suffering, injustice and deaths. It's possible that the Biblical God is imaginary and evil instead of being real and evil.

The Bible claims in Genesis that God made the world and all the living things within. What is more, God even makes evil: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7, The Bible (KJV). That's why if the Bible is true, the Biblical God is omniculpable and evil. If the allegedly omniscient and omnipotent Biblical God had made all created beings equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent then the Devil would not even have wanted to harm Adam and Eve and Adam. If Adam and Eve were all-knowing and all-powerful to begin with they would not have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. If the Bible is true, then it is all God's fault and God should be punished accordingly by God.

Neither gun manufacturers, nor gun users have free will. Therefore, neither deserve any credit or blame for their choices. I define free will as a will that is free to do anything and is not determined by any variables. Such free will does not exist in biological organisms. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will and therefore deserves all the credits and blame for everything, everywhere and everywhen. I don't know if an all-knowing and all-powerful being exists or not. God could be real and evil or imaginary and evil. I can't decide which.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to 1213 in post #49]

Because person should be guilty only for his own actions.

I was watching a vid yesterday - this one;



and the Rabbi was saying the same thing in relation to how the Messiah isn't someone who dies for the sins of others...

Of course, the Christians will simply say the Jews were inadequate in their view of the messiah. If you take the Christian dogma of the Messiah, then the Jewish assessment simply is irrelevant. And of course they can "Prove" their view of the messiah in fiddling OT text to fit their view and claim that the OT confirms their view.

I might reiterate Matthew's Nativity where the wise men roll up at Herod's palace and ask where the new born King of the Jews was. Matthew has Herod immediately jump to the conclusion that it's the Messiah of scripture they are after, which is absurd when you think about it. Nevertheless, when the Sanhedrin is assembled, they tell Herod that the 'new born king' will be born in Bethlehem. As I say, this makes no sense, but it shows how the concept of King of the Jews (never mind 'Messiah') is twisted to fit the Christian view so what it would mean to the people of the time is never given consideration.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #56]

Yes - I was aware in watching the video that the Rabbi was as invested in his particular take on things as are the Christians he is critiquing.
Nevertheless, some of his points were truthful therein.

Both have hope in the coming of a Messiah - for differing and overlapping reasons.

[JoeyKnothead]

I'm just pointing out an example of how a metaphor that seems so straightforward can be misconstrued.

Indeed, but who can claim to have the monopoly on identifying who is guilty of doing the above ? You? I think not given your admission.

When we metaphor, we allow a potential multitude of interpretations...

You have your opinion, I have mine. We both no doubt see straightforward and I see misconstrued convolution, the only difference is we see it coming from a different directions.

Plenty fair

No biggie,

My concern here is folks who'd act on their interpretation of biblical metaphors (or other claims) in a way that restricts the rights and freedoms of others. Up to and including overt acts of bigotry and violence.

And don't get me started on em voting.

The Bible Belt alone has a horrible, wicked, violent history of oppressing others, while pointing to their Bible as a 'moral' guide.

[William]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #54]

I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power.

I disagree with victim mentality as it bases its station of position on assumptions which themselves are insufficient evidence to warrant being the victim of circumstance.

I suspect that in some, if not many cases where the supposed 'problem of evil' is forefront in the reasoning preventing individuals from entertaining the idea that there is a creative mind involved with this experiential reality, because being the victim is preferrable.

Fortunately I can empathize, as I am sure most folk can, as most folk have felt like victims of circumstance and I certainly have wished for a 'perfect world' or at least a better world than the one we currently occupy - but ultimately I saw no usefulness in retaining the victim role as it showed itself to be detrimental - not only to my mental health - but also to my finding any possibly meaning for being, amongst it all as it is rather than as I personally wished it could be, or thought it should be.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #54]

I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power.

I disagree with victim mentality as it bases its station of position on assumptions which themselves are insufficient evidence to warrant being the victim of circumstance.

I suspect that in some, if not many cases where the supposed 'problem of evil' is forefront in the reasoning preventing individuals from entertaining the idea that there is a creative mind involved with this experiential reality, because being the victim is preferrable.

Fortunately I can empathize, as I am sure most folk can, as most folk have felt like victims of circumstance and I certainly have wished for a 'perfect world' or at least a better world than the one we currently occupy - but ultimately I saw no usefulness in retaining the victim role as it showed itself to be detrimental - not only to my mental health - but also to my finding any possibly meaning for being, amongst it all as it is rather than as I personally wished it could be, or thought it should be.

Tardigrades https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... ater-bears can live without air, water and food. You can demonstrate that you are not a victim of determinism by doing what tardigrades do. Please document your years without oxygen, water and food by doing a livestream of it online. If you can do it, it will convince me that you are not a prisoner of causality. Also, please make all living things (past, present and future) forever happy with your alleged free will and grant all living things omnibenevolence, omniscience, omnipotence and an infinite number of universes each. I bet you will fail to do these tasks. It's not your fault. Your every choice is determined and constrained and empowered by your unique mix of genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. As is mine.