The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

[Compassionist]

I read the following:

Source: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ... dened.html

Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6

Then I read the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden ... heart.html

Also read: Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)

“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’

I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

[Compassionist]

Things I want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:
1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering and death and injustice...

By killing everything? I think what you say would mean that evil people would not have even this life.

I am clearly not a free agent with a free will.

That is sad. In that case it would be best, if I would speak directly to the one who determines what you say.

...All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. ...

I have free will and I am guilty for all of my own actions and choices.

We live in a reality full of suffering, injustice and deaths. If the Biblical God made this reality then he is guilty of failing to prevent all the suffering, injustice and deaths. It's possible that the Biblical God is imaginary and evil instead of being real and evil.

Interesting thing is that by what the Bible tells, everything was good when God created it. Then people decided to reject God, and God allowed it and we were expelled to this godless world. I think people have chosen own suffering.

...What is more, God even makes evil: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7, The Bible (KJV). ...

Evil is actually nothing, it is like darkness or emptiness, lack of good. When God creates evil, it happens by letting people to be without Him (good). And I think it is what people want. Would it be good, if God would force you to be good?

...I define free will as a will that is free to do anything ...

I think that is wrong and stupid definition. Free will means person is free to want what ever he wants. It does not mean everything also goes as he wants. Free will is not the same as omnipotence.

My plan to prevent all suffering, injustice and deaths does not involve killing anything. It involves making all living things omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and giving every living thing an infinite number of universes each.

Just because you claim that you have free will, it does not mean you do. Your choices are determined by your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.

Omniscience and omnipotence are pre-requisites for free will as I defined it.

What is your definition of free will? What makes your definition more accurate than my definition of free will? Please see https://www.britannica.com/topic/free-will We don't have free will. We have constrained will. It is an evidence-based conclusion.

You claimed that everything was good when God created it. I understand your statement comes from the Bible. I don't know if the Bible is true or false. How can it be true when it is so full of contradictions and inaccuracies? The Bible is full of horrific acts by the Biblical God. If the Bible is true, then the Biblical God is real and evil. Please see http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html and https://evilbible.com

[TRANSPONDER]

I agree with 1213. We have Free Will (that is the faculty of choice, even if there are determining reasons for them down to Nano - level. The mechanic of choice are what they are and enable the instinct of compassion and empathy. He and I share this and that is free will as distinct from having none.

The definition of free will being the ability to do anything and having no constraints is not the same thing - having some free will does not require having total free will.

[Compassionist]

I agree with 1213. We have Free Will (that is the faculty of choice, even if there are determining reasons for them down to Nano - level. The mechanic of choice are what they are and enable the instinct of compassion and empathy. He and I share this and that is free will as distinct from having none.

The definition of free will being the ability to do anything and having no constraints is not the same thing - having some free will does not require having total free will.

We have constrained will, not free will.

[TRANSPONDER]

Yes, but it is still under the free will heading rather than no free will. It is still free will even if not total free will. Making it a subset (constrained free will) does not make it No free will.

[William]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #65]

Yes, you are a victim.

According to my connect with the "Cosmic Mind", I am informed that I am 'nobodies victim - ever." I agree with the assessment, even while understanding your own propensity to think of yourself [and everyone else] as victims.

Even the fact that you are in denial about being a victim is inevitable.

Given the information I receive, I agree - it is inevitable - I deny it, because it is not true. So far you have shown me no evidence to the contrary.

Did you choose to conceive yourself?

According to the information I have received, yes - I did choose to enter this experiential reality - even knowing prior to doing so, that I would lose all memory of my prior existence as a result.

Did you choose your genes?

Yes. I chose everything.

Can you do any of the tasks I asked you to do? No. You are a victim from conception to death. As are all living things.

I chose to be part of this experiential reality, even knowing that I would not be able to do the tasks you asked me to do, and that this experiential reality would be short-lived.

I define free will as a will that is free to do anything and is not determined by any variables. Such free will does not exist in biological organisms. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will.

Please explain the reason behind your belief that an omniscient and omnipotent being has free will.

[William]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #69]

Compassionist: I have never wanted to be alive. I think about suicide every few minutes. I hate all the suffering, injustice and deaths but I can't go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice and deaths. I want to make all living things forever happy but I can't. My lack of omnniscience and omnipotence makes me so sad. I want live without consuming any oxygen, water and food but I can't. I am a vegan but I want to me much more ethical then just being a vegan. I want to be a total non-consumer who consumes nothing and has zero ecological footprint. I feel terrible that my existence has made climate change worse. Every time I exhale, fart, burp, cough and sneeze I expel carbon dioxide which makes climate change worse. I am ashamed of my existence and the harm my existence has caused to other living things. I wish I was never conceived.

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #72]

TRANSPONDER: I feel for you and (while I have had my problems) I can't put myself in your position. I do hope that you can get help to attain a better frame of mind. But while I understand where you are coming from, that does not make it an empirical verity for anyone else. Let alone any kind of argument for God or against humanism.

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #70]

TRANSPONDER: Firstly, I am distressed to hear that you are in a delicate state of mind. I think you are missing out on a lot and I might suggest that you get some advice. A lot of depression can be helped by a pill or two.

I understand what it is like to be in the deep hole in which feeling ashamed for being human and wishing to be dead [and contemplating killing myself to make it so] has me thinking.

However, once I sourced the reason for why I had such feelings, I was able to climb from said deep hole and have no logical reason to be dragged back into it whilst attempting to help another out of it.

The rope one is offered can either be used to climb out of the situation, or hang oneself with. However, it is pertinent to point out that killing oneself does not automatically guarantee one will be free of oneself.

I started a thread in the chat section of the Message Board. I called it;

Is it pertinent to prepare for more experience upon death of the body?

In post #3 the subject is;

Distressing Near-Death Experiences:

One story [re suicide] is this;

A woman who attempted suicide felt her body sliding downward in a cold, dark, watery environment: “When I reached the bottom, it resembled the entrance to a cave, with what looked like webs hanging…. I heard cries, wails, moans, and the gnashing of teeth. I saw these beings that resembled humans, with the shape of a head and body, but they were ugly and grotesque…. They were frightening and sounded like they were tormented, in agony.”

and;

A woman who attempted suicide felt herself sucked into a void: “I was being drawn into this dark abyss, or tunnel, or void…. I was not aware of my body as I know it…. I was terrified. I felt terror. I had expected nothingness; I expected the big sleep; I expected oblivion; and I found now that I was going to another plane … and it frightened me. I wanted nothingness, but this force was pulling me somewhere I didn’t want to go, but I never got beyond the fog.”

Search the web and there will be a multitude of similar stories from those who attempted suicide and had a horrific experience of it - worse than anything they had previously experienced in their life which contributed to their decision to end it all.

What sane fellow would take the advice of someone who admits to hating the human experience and to having suicidal thoughts? In asking me to accept that I am a victim of circumstance, you are inviting me to risk being suicidal as such belief clearly takes the personality to such a place and how is that even helpful?

Since suicide cannot guarantee me relief from my beliefs and whirlpool thoughts, I would not risk leaving this experiential reality with a boot-load of unanswered questions which lead me to decide on such course of action, because taking that baggage on to a possible next-experiential reality might well amplify the despair, rather than deal a death-blow to it.

If the above appears to be in a non-empathic tone - please understand that it is not my intention to add to your despair, but it is my intention to let you know on no uncertain terms, that I am not going to buy into the despair you already own/clutch to yourself.

Seek help - take the meds - listen to the professionals - or find a way to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps but please to not insist that others see their own lives through the lens of your particular understanding.

And furthermore, be aware that I am passing your messages through my own connection with the "Cosmic Mind" -
Re: Generating Messages
Post #222

[brunumb]

I think that is a bad interpretation when Bible clearly shows that pharaohs mind changed every time the plague ended. If God influenced to pharaoh, it was by ending the plagues, not by some evil mind altering trick.

To me, it is clear that the intention of the plagues was to intimidate the pharaoh and make him capitulate. When it worked God, intervened to make the pharaoh change his mind thus causing God to unleash more devastation. Please quote the passages that clearly show that the pharaoh's mind changed as a result of a plague ending.

It is not directly told in the Bible how God hardened pharaohs heart. But, it is clear from the actions. First cause was obviously that God made Israelites to ask freedom (Exodus 7). Pharaoh didn't like that and made their work even harder from the previous. There is nothing indicating that God did something more or some evil way altered pharaoh's mind against his will.

I'm sorry but that doesn't address the issue at all. You made a clear statement:

.....pharaohs mind changed every time the plague ended. If God influenced to pharaoh, it was by ending the plagues, not by some evil mind altering trick.

Please justify that. This bit: "First cause was obviously that God made Israelites to ask freedom (Exodus 7)" has nothing to do with the issue at hand. You seem to be taking the approach of flinging mud at the barn and hoping some will stick. As it is, you are make less and less sense.

[brunumb]

Interesting thing is that by what the Bible tells, everything was good when God created it. Then people decided to reject God, and God allowed it and we were expelled to this godless world. I think people have chosen own suffering.

Not even close. Two humans allegedly committed the most heinous crime of disobedience that involved no harm to anyone, and as a consequence God rejected them and inflicted upon them and their descendants the worst possible retribution.

[1213]

My plan to prevent all suffering, injustice and deaths does not involve killing anything. It involves making all living things omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and giving every living thing an infinite number of universes each.

So, you would not give freedom. I think that is quite evil.

Just because you claim that you have free will, it does not mean you do. Your choices are determined by your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.

Can you prove that? What is the evidence for that my choices are determined by genes,...?

...
What is your definition of free will? What makes your definition more accurate than my definition of free will?

Free will means person can freely wish or desire anything he wants, because:

"...not determined by anything beyond its own nature or being : choosing or capable of choosing for itself..."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free

"...to have a wish or desire..."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/will

[1213]

I think that is a bad interpretation when Bible clearly shows that pharaohs mind changed every time the plague ended. If God influenced to pharaoh, it was by ending the plagues, not by some evil mind altering trick.

To me, it is clear that the intention of the plagues was to intimidate the pharaoh and make him capitulate. When it worked God, intervened to make the pharaoh change his mind thus causing God to unleash more devastation. Please quote the passages that clearly show that the pharaoh's mind changed as a result of a plague ending.

It is not directly told in the Bible how God hardened pharaohs heart. But, it is clear from the actions. First cause was obviously that God made Israelites to ask freedom (Exodus 7). Pharaoh didn't like that and made their work even harder from the previous. There is nothing indicating that God did something more or some evil way altered pharaoh's mind against his will.

I'm sorry but that doesn't address the issue at all. You made a clear statement:

.....pharaohs mind changed every time the plague ended. If God influenced to pharaoh, it was by ending the plagues, not by some evil mind altering trick.

Please justify that. This bit: "First cause was obviously that God made Israelites to ask freedom (Exodus 7)" has nothing to do with the issue at hand. You seem to be taking the approach of flinging mud at the barn and hoping some will stick. As it is, you are make less and less sense.

I think it comes clear if you read the whole text, but here is one example:

When Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. The heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he didn’t let the children of Israel go, just as Yahweh had spoken through Moses.
Ex. 9:34-35