A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

[POI]

Taken from "1213" --> http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Owning_slaves.html

Notably, the quote below:

Owning slaves?

According to the Old Testament, peoples at least had right to own slaves. Many wonder, is that same right also valid for today’s disciples of Jesus.

1) Jesus didn’t directly deny owning slaves. So maybe it can be taught that it is valid right today also. However Jesus taught to do same to others that you want others to do to you. Therefore, if you don’t want yourself to be slave, don’t keep others in that position.

2) Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat. 7:12

3) It is also good to notice that disciples of Jesus shouldn’t consider themselves superior to others. If we are all brothers and sisters, how could we keep other as a slave? Rather we should be servants to each other.

*************************

My response, thus far:

1) You are right, Jesus never tells humans that slavery is wrong. Instead, He looks to endorse the following two Bible passages A) and B):

A) Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Col. 3:22-24)

B) All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves. (1 Tim. 6:1-2)

A) This massage tells the slave to remain subservient, work as hard as one can; even when the master is away. This way, God will be proud of you, via the slave.

B) Respect your slave master. If the master happens to be a Christian, respect them even more.

As you can see, Jesus appears not to be against slavery at all. In fact, He condones such practices.

2) If this were the case for all humans, (the free and the enslaved), then Jesus would not have endorsed instructions for slavery.

3) Please remember the 'golden rule' was already expressed in the OT (i.e.) "you shall love your neighbor as yourself"(Lev. 19:18). Either never speak about the topic of slavery at all, or, tell the Bible readers that slavery is 'wrong'. Instead, the OT already instructs on how you may obtain slaves, how you may beat your slaves, and informs the reader that the slave master can own the slave for life, and also treat them as their property for life. The NT then merely reinforces such OT instruction.

Question(s) for debate:

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Answer (post #401)

I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a no- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[TRANSPONDER]

This is just playing with words. You can say that we are slaves to our need to eat, gravity and being unable to fly. But that does not alter the fact that Chattel slavery - owning another person as property - is something we all know is different from being subject to environmental conditions, and we know it's wrong and God, Jesus and Paul know at least that people don't want to be another's property, and yet they never say that slavery is wrong, not even as a principle, let alone as an exhortation.

This is just one more clue that we are dealing with the opinions of men of the time, not the opinions of any divine, or even particularly wise or ethical beings. The Bible is the Book of religious myths, for this and many other reasons. You seem unable to find reasons that would persuade we skeptics otherwise on the present showing, even if you prefer to practice semantic legerdemain rather than face facts.

Thank you... Also see post 145

I had that in mind while writing my post. I borrow most of my ideas from others

[Wootah]

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Come to Me, and I Will Give You Rest

25 hAt that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, iLord of heaven and earth, that jyou have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and krevealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your lgracious will.7 27 mAll things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son nexcept the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone oto whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 pCome to qme, all who labor and are rheavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and slearn from me, for I am tgentle and lowly in heart, and uyou will find rest for your souls. 30 For vmy yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Jesus says his yoke is lightest, not that there is no yoke.

My view is that we are all slaves: to nature, to our bodies, to physics, to other peoples, to our families. It is endless and pretending to not be a slave is illusory. If we recognise that then we can better choose what to be a slave to. As a Christian, I claim to be a slave to Christ and so as my master washed the feet of his disciples then I know what standard God expects of me as his Slave. No slave is greater than his master. It's when we all become slaves of each other, loving God and loving others as we love ourselves, that we will all be most free.

* all matter is a slave to causality btw, so unless you believe in free will, any views on slavery is moot.

This type of response has already been addressed, ad nauseam. To save your search, I will give you a brief recap...

In the matter of Leviticus 25:44-46 and Exodus 21:20-21, you are defined as a very specific type of "slave". You are a "slave" to a human master. You are deemed property/money, for life.

So sure, we are all 'slaves' to something. But are all 'slaves' equal? I doubt it.... Here, again, is the pecking order, as established by the Bible:

God>Jesus>free man>free woman>slave

The "slave" is the lowest on the totem pole, or pecking order.

So I ask you now... If you were born into slavery, via Exodus 21:4, would you think your brand of 'slavery' equals that of the 'free male human Christian slave master' who owns you?

We are all slaves. How is that not an answer? I would far prefer to live under the laws of slavery in the OT if I were a slave as opposed to the various forms of slavery in the ancient and modern world today.

In many places and times in the world where there is slavery - to free a slave would condemn them to death. Imagine a black man set free in the 'south' during the slavery times there.

Also slavery is not necessarily evil. If a person legitimately owes a debt they should pay for example. Another example is homeless on the streets in America. I bet if someone could take them in (enslave them) if you will, then feed, cloth, house them, give them something useful to do over time you might even see that slave have a family and a home of their own. It's blindness to not see the slavery endemic in the modern world.

[Wootah]

Also from a Christian perspective the theme of slavery in the Bible and in the world is because we are slaves to sin.

https://reformedwiki.com/verses/slaves-to-sin

The Bible would truly respond that you are either a slave to Christ or a slave to Sin.

[TRANSPONDER]

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Come to Me, and I Will Give You Rest

25 hAt that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, iLord of heaven and earth, that jyou have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and krevealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your lgracious will.7 27 mAll things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son nexcept the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone oto whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 pCome to qme, all who labor and are rheavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and slearn from me, for I am tgentle and lowly in heart, and uyou will find rest for your souls. 30 For vmy yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Jesus says his yoke is lightest, not that there is no yoke.

My view is that we are all slaves: to nature, to our bodies, to physics, to other peoples, to our families. It is endless and pretending to not be a slave is illusory. If we recognise that then we can better choose what to be a slave to. As a Christian, I claim to be a slave to Christ and so as my master washed the feet of his disciples then I know what standard God expects of me as his Slave. No slave is greater than his master. It's when we all become slaves of each other, loving God and loving others as we love ourselves, that we will all be most free.

* all matter is a slave to causality btw, so unless you believe in free will, any views on slavery is moot.

This type of response has already been addressed, ad nauseam. To save your search, I will give you a brief recap...

In the matter of Leviticus 25:44-46 and Exodus 21:20-21, you are defined as a very specific type of "slave". You are a "slave" to a human master. You are deemed property/money, for life.

So sure, we are all 'slaves' to something. But are all 'slaves' equal? I doubt it.... Here, again, is the pecking order, as established by the Bible:

God>Jesus>free man>free woman>slave

The "slave" is the lowest on the totem pole, or pecking order.

So I ask you now... If you were born into slavery, via Exodus 21:4, would you think your brand of 'slavery' equals that of the 'free male human Christian slave master' who owns you?

We are all slaves. How is that not an answer? I would far prefer to live under the laws of slavery in the OT if I were a slave as opposed to the various forms of slavery in the ancient and modern world today.

In many places and times in the world where there is slavery - to free a slave would condemn them to death. Imagine a black man set free in the 'south' during the slavery times there.

Also slavery is not necessarily evil. If a person legitimately owes a debt they should pay for example. Another example is homeless on the streets in America. I bet if someone could take them in (enslave them) if you will, then feed, cloth, house them, give them something useful to do over time you might even see that slave have a family and a home of their own. It's blindness to not see the slavery endemic in the modern world.

my goodness The posts your responded to answered you. I answered you. Being 'slaves' to our condition and circumstances is not at all the same thing as being the property of another person. The OT and Paul understands that people do not like to be slaves. There is no excuse for the Bible not denouncing it - other than it is work of men of the time, and that's all that it is.

During the civil war (and before) slaves would risk a lot to flee to the North. They joined to Northern army to fight for an end to slavery. They did not agree with you that they were better off as property of their cotton -pickin' masters. And what has 'debt' to do with it? These people did not own anybody anything; they were traded as property without their own wishes being considered.

I sometimes would agree with you that offenders against the Law should be put to productive work rather than live at taxpayers' expense, Also the same with street dwellers. Until they get on their feet. Indentured servitude, it's called. This is intended to pay a debt and help these people get on their feet. Lifetime slavery with no out and no payment usually, is quite another thing. And that's what Slavery (for foreign slaves) is in the Bible.

I truly do not know whether you really think those are valid arguments you made and really reflects your own views or whether you are just saying whatever you need to save the Bible. You tell me. I'd be fascinated to know.

[POI]

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Come to Me, and I Will Give You Rest

25 hAt that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, iLord of heaven and earth, that jyou have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and krevealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your lgracious will.7 27 mAll things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son nexcept the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone oto whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 pCome to qme, all who labor and are rheavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and slearn from me, for I am tgentle and lowly in heart, and uyou will find rest for your souls. 30 For vmy yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Jesus says his yoke is lightest, not that there is no yoke.

My view is that we are all slaves: to nature, to our bodies, to physics, to other peoples, to our families. It is endless and pretending to not be a slave is illusory. If we recognise that then we can better choose what to be a slave to. As a Christian, I claim to be a slave to Christ and so as my master washed the feet of his disciples then I know what standard God expects of me as his Slave. No slave is greater than his master. It's when we all become slaves of each other, loving God and loving others as we love ourselves, that we will all be most free.

* all matter is a slave to causality btw, so unless you believe in free will, any views on slavery is moot.

This type of response has already been addressed, ad nauseam. To save your search, I will give you a brief recap...

In the matter of Leviticus 25:44-46 and Exodus 21:20-21, you are defined as a very specific type of "slave". You are a "slave" to a human master. You are deemed property/money, for life.

So sure, we are all 'slaves' to something. But are all 'slaves' equal? I doubt it.... Here, again, is the pecking order, as established by the Bible:

God>Jesus>free man>free woman>slave

The "slave" is the lowest on the totem pole, or pecking order.

So I ask you now... If you were born into slavery, via Exodus 21:4, would you think your brand of 'slavery' equals that of the 'free male human Christian slave master' who owns you?

We are all slaves. How is that not an answer?

I never said it wasn't 'an answer'. I stated this response has already been addressed, many times.

I would far prefer to live under the laws of slavery in the OT if I were a slave as opposed to the various forms of slavery in the ancient and modern world today.

I bet you would far prefer not to be a 'slave' at all. And by 'slave', I mean the kind in which God is A-okay with, by providing a guide in Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25.

Your response would be like saying.... "I would much rather be in this concentration camp for life, verses that one." As a Christian, you are now forced to rationalize "Biblical slavery". And just think, this entire topic would never had been created, if God did not condone such practices, which many nations have now completely abolished. Also see post #145, in it's entirety. It's a short post. It explains what you are now forced to do, as a believer.

In many places and times in the world where there is slavery - to free a slave would condemn them to death. Imagine a black man set free in the 'south' during the slavery times there.

A 19th century Christian chattel slave master, from the south, could use/rationalize the Bible to justify their practices. Again, just address Ex. 21 and Lev. 25.

Also slavery is not necessarily evil. If a person legitimately owes a debt they should pay for example. Another example is homeless on the streets in America. I bet if someone could take them in (enslave them) if you will, then feed, cloth, house them, give them something useful to do over time you might even see that slave have a family and a home of their own. It's blindness to not see the slavery endemic in the modern world.

You are again gravely watering down the term 'slave'. Transponder stated this already. Meaning, you are merely using 'word play'. As I stated from the jump, we are all 'slaves'. I'm speaking about the kind of slavery in which God is okay with.... Ex. 21 and Lev. 25.

And yes, in a perfect society, we would have better solutions for the homeless, or people who owe debt. But enslaving them for life, as property, and allowances for beatings with virtual impunity, prolly ain't it

[POI]

The Bible would truly respond that you are either a slave to Christ or a slave to Sin.

You can be both a slave to Christ and a slave to sin, while NOT also being a slave to a human slave master

[TRANSPONDER]

It's remarkable that a Bible -apologist (which I guess is what we have here) of the kind that excuses the inexcusable, contradictory or dead wrong in the Bible by appealing to 'metaphor' cannot see here that 'Slave to Christ/Slave to sin' is metaphorical and does not at all equate to the ownership without rights, freedom or will (other than what your master says) that chattel slavery is.

[Wootah]

You are again gravely watering down the term 'slave'. Transponder stated this already. Meaning, you are merely using 'word play'. As I stated from the jump, we are all 'slaves'. I'm speaking about the kind of slavery in which God is okay with.... Ex. 21 and Lev. 25.

And yes, in a perfect society, we would have better solutions for the homeless, or people who owe debt. But enslaving them for life, as property, and allowances for beatings with virtual impunity, prolly ain't it

I think I am taking the true nature of slavery far more seriously than you do and I think the Bible would be far more fallacious if it ignored the endemic nature of slavery. It deals with and in a real sinful fallen world and says, 'hey that is not how it is meant to be' but at the same time says 'hey since you are sinful humans here are a bunch of rules to mitigate your sinful nature'.

I should also add that resolving poverty, slavery, or anything else is not the main goal. Those things happen as we spread God's kingdom.

[POI]

You are again gravely watering down the term 'slave'. Transponder stated this already. Meaning, you are merely using 'word play'. As I stated from the jump, we are all 'slaves'. I'm speaking about the kind of slavery in which God is okay with.... Ex. 21 and Lev. 25.

And yes, in a perfect society, we would have better solutions for the homeless, or people who owe debt. But enslaving them for life, as property, and allowances for beatings with virtual impunity, prolly ain't it

I think I am taking the true nature of slavery far more seriously than you do

Since we are throwing around opinions, I have one as well. I think you are rationalizing 'Biblical slavery', because when you see what the Bible actually expresses, regarding the topic of humans slavery in Ex 21 and Lev 25, you are forced to somehow 'justify' it.

You take it seriously, because it is a part of the canon which raises uncomfortability. And now, we have a whole mess of dedicated apologists on the front line, in an attempt to spin what it says. Likely, because if one does a plain reading of these chapters, it probably does not align with the "moral compass" of the person reading it... Hence, the mental gymnastics to come, as seen here 150 posts deep and counting....

I think the Bible would be far more fallacious if it ignored the endemic nature of slavery.

Your response makes little sense. All the Bible would need to say, is "thou shall not own humans, as property, for life". Or something similar.... God has absolutely no problem telling readers what He does not like. But when it comes to (slavery), He seems to shrug His shoulders.

It deals with and in a real sinful fallen world and says, 'hey that is not how it is meant to be' but at the same time says 'hey since you are sinful humans here are a bunch of rules to mitigate your sinful nature'.

LOL. Does it do this with other 'sin'? Let's start with the topic of "theft". Should we water this topic down too? What does God say about "theft"? He says, "don't do it!" (i.e..) 28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need. (Eph. 4:28)

Now, let's replace what you said with 'theft' instead of 'slavery'. Does God say "here are a bunch of rules to mitigate your sinful nature'. And yet, "theft" could also certainly be 'justified'. And yet, God is pretty clear. "Don't steal". --- Even though we can conjure up all sorts of justifiable reasons to steal....

I should also add that resolving poverty, slavery, or anything else is not the main goal. Those things happen as we spread God's kingdom.

God's main goal is for you to worship him. However, God also seems to place his opinion on quite a few topics. And where 'slavery' is concerned, he seems, at best, indifferent. --> Ex. 21 and Lev. 25. Thus, God's goal does not seem to end slavery. He is either for it, or benign to it...

[TRANSPONDER]

You are again gravely watering down the term 'slave'. Transponder stated this already. Meaning, you are merely using 'word play'. As I stated from the jump, we are all 'slaves'. I'm speaking about the kind of slavery in which God is okay with.... Ex. 21 and Lev. 25.

And yes, in a perfect society, we would have better solutions for the homeless, or people who owe debt. But enslaving them for life, as property, and allowances for beatings with virtual impunity, prolly ain't it

I think I am taking the true nature of slavery far more seriously than you do and I think the Bible would be far more fallacious if it ignored the endemic nature of slavery. It deals with and in a real sinful fallen world and says, 'hey that is not how it is meant to be' but at the same time says 'hey since you are sinful humans here are a bunch of rules to mitigate your sinful nature'.

I should also add that resolving poverty, slavery, or anything else is not the main goal. Those things happen as we spread God's kingdom.

That's your best answer yet, and it does follow Paul who says that the Law does not save but was rather given because of 'hardness of heart'. Notwithstanding, the commandments do not say 'these are the rules for sinning, coveting, murdering or disrespecting parents' It says Do not do it. So why does it not say 'Do not own other humans as property' unless it isn't seen as something intrinsically to be forbidden - which, as argued throughout, is the Bible attitude to slavery throughout? It is either because God thinks that slavery is not so bad (in which case human morality is better) or it is nothing to do with God and is just the views of the human writers of the time.