How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

[otseng]

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:

How can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?

The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.

For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

----------

Thread Milestones

• Case study of Hezekiah
• Start discussing global flood / Flood Model summary
• Recap arguments of authority of the Bible
• Start discussing Tower of Babel / Tower of Babel summary
• Start discussing archaeology / Philosophy of science / Origin of alphabet / End of discussion on archaeology
• Start discussing cosmology / Concluding cosmology
• Start discussing Shroud of Turin / Summary top TS imaging theories / Created DefendingChristianity.com and TS subforums / Shroud of Turin summary
• Start discussing Bible and resurrection
• Start discussing the Messiahship of Jesus / Messiahship of Jesus wrap up
• Start discussing Old Testament ethics
• Summary argument of atheism and morality / God basis for objective morality
• Start discussing genocide / Genocide summary argument
• Start discussing slavery / Slavery summary argument
• Start discussing homosexuality / Homosexuality summary argument
• Old Testament ethics summary argument

[otseng]

Otseng, I (and it seems others) have decided to let this stay off the topic, and become Otseng's Bible -study thread. But I have to repeat that this is No evidence for the Exodus the Conquest or anything else in the Bible.

Stating it is "no evidence" has no weight. Instead, you need to present valid counterarguments and evidence.

Which is not what this forum should be for.

As the creator of this forum, I think I should know better than anyone else what this forum is for.

I just feel obliged to say so as you no doubt think you won this debate. In fact you spammed anyone out of wanting to expend time on you.

I suspect it's because few wants to do the hard work of research and study.

So, to get it back on topic, please present evidence the Canaanites did not practice child sacrifice.

[otseng]

The first city attacked in Canaan was Jericho.

Joshua 4:19 (KJV)
19 And the people came up out of Jordan on the tenth [day] of the first month, and encamped in Gilgal, in the east border of Jericho.

Jericho is located north of the Dead Sea in the Jordan valley west of the Jordan river. It is in the State of Palestine in the West Bank.


https://leonmauldin.blog/2014/02/15/jer ... of-canaan/

Jericho is one of the oldest inhabited cities in the world.

"Archaeologists have unearthed the remains of more than 20 successive settlements in Jericho, the first of which dates back 11,000 years (to 9000 BCE)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho

Jericho is also the lowest city in the world, located 258 metres (846 ft) below sea level.

The low altitude allows it to be close to the underground water and to be quite fertile.


https://www.archatlas.org/atlas/visuali ... s/jericho/

"The people who settled here so long ago would have done so to take advantage of the freshwater which is such a scarcity in the harsh desert environment just north of the Dead Sea."
https://www.beinharimtours.com/elishas-spring/

The Bible called Jericho the "city of palm trees".

Deuteronomy 34:3
And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, to Zoar.

Greek geograher, Strabo, described Jericho:

Jericho is a plain surrounded by a kind of mountainous country, which in a way, slopes toward it like a theatre. Here is the Phoenicon, which is mixed also with all kinds of cultivated and fruitful trees, though it consists mostly of palm trees. It is 100 stadia in length and is everywhere watered with streams.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho

"Jericho, which literally means "fragrant place," boasts a pleasant climate with plenty of sunshine and a lush oasis watered by Elisha's Spring."
https://www.thattheworldmayknow.com/jericho

In 35 BC the Roman politician Mark Antony made a gift of Jericho to his lover Cleopatra of Egypt. Cleopatra had coveted the oasis because she wanted to control the plantations of persimmon (now extinct), which produced a perfume that reputedly “drove men wild”.

https://www.seetheholyland.net/tag/cleopatra/

[otseng]

Tell es-Sultan is the site of ancient Jericho. And it was there the infamous wall of Jericho was found.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tell_es-sultan.jpg

3D reconstruction of ancient Jericho:

https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/a ... in-history

"Ernst Sellin and Carl Watzinger excavated Tell es-Sultan and Tulul Abu el-'Alayiq between 1907–1909 and in 1911, finding the remains of two walls which they initially suggested supported the biblical account of the Battle of Jericho."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_es-Sultan

It is the earliest walled city and had a surrounding wall as early as 8000 BC.

"the proto-city of Jericho in the West Bank had a wall surrounding it as early as the 8th millennium BC."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_wal

"The Walls of Jericho are the oldest known city walls in the world and date back to at least 8000 BCE, but were most likely built much earlier."
https://www.oldest.org/structures/walls/

There have been several excavations of Jericho. One of the early excavators, Sellin and Watzinger, dug from 1907 to 1909. They found remains of a wall and suggested it was the wall of Jericho in the Bible.

Ernst Sellin and Carl Watzinger excavated Tell es-Sultan and Tulul Abu el-'Alayiq between 1907–1909 and in 1911, finding the remains of two walls which they initially suggested supported the biblical account of the Battle of Jericho.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_es-Sultan

Next major excavation was done by John Garstang between 1930 and 1936 and dated the wall to around 1400 BC.

The site was again excavated by John Garstang between 1930 and 1936, who again raised the suggestion that remains of the upper wall was that described in the Bible, and dated to around 1400 BCE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_es-Sultan

The next excavation was done by Kathleen Kenyon between 1952 and 1958. She dated the wall 150 years earlier to 1550 BC. Her dating was primarily based on the lack of any Cypriot bi-chrome pottery where she was excavating.

Kenyon’s date for the destruction of Jericho was not based on hard evidence that she uncovered in the destruction layer on the southwest slope or from her excavation trenches; rather, her date was primarily derived from the absence of a particular kind of imported pottery from the island of Cyprus in the Mediteranean Sea.

https://biblearchaeology.org/research/c ... t-conquest

Josh 6:24 (KJV)
24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that [was] therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

The burn layer excavation included Egyptian artifacts from the early Exodus date.

Garstang found local Canaanite pottery from the time of Joshua and evidence for a massive destruction of the city by a fierce fire which left ash deposits up to 3 feet thick. In addition to this, he discovered Egyptian scarabs in pit tombs outside of Jericho that also indicated the city was occupied down into the Late Bronze I period. This included a rare scarab of the much maligned Hatshepsut (ca. 1506/4-1488 B.C.), and a rare seal from the reign of Thutmosis III (1506-1452 BC).

https://biblearchaeology.org/research/c ... t-conquest

In Garstang's excavation, he had discovered imitation Cypriot pottery.

Inexplicably, Kenyon seems to have failed to consider the pottery discovered by Garstang. He had unearthed numerous examples of a locally made, imitation bichrome “Cypriot” pottery from the destruction layer of the final Canaanite city of Jericho. Garstang called it “red ware” and several of the pieces he published have classic Cypriot bichrome motifs.

https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2019 ... t-jericho/

Both Garstang and Kenyon had excavated in the poorer section of Jericho, so that could account for the lack of the presence of imported pottery.

Locally made imitation bichrome pottery came into use in the Late Bronze IB period and was no longer made in the Late Bronze IIA.20 Since both Garstang and Kenyon were digging in the poorer sections of Jericho, it’s hardly surprising that only locally made bichrome pottery was found, and that the real, fancy, Cypriot bichrome pottery was absent.

https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2019 ... t-jericho/

Another factor was the technique that Kenyon used. She excavated as deep as she could, but this meant she could only dig at a small area.

From the beginning, her scientific methods attracted sharp criticism. Her methods were so time-consuming that she could only excavate small areas; some pointed out that Kenyon had not excavated a single complete house at Jericho. Her focus on thousands of soil layers and hundreds of thousands of small potsherds often kept her from seeing the big picture. Kenyon was also unable to produce the final publications of her excavations before her death in 1978. But her methods are still used and for many she is still the “Great Sitt”: the grand lady of archaeology in Palestine.

https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/places/ ... nd-jericho

Further, she was not known for her techniques in pottery dating.

"her pottery sequence for Samaria was considered questionable by her peers"
https://www.encyclopedia.com/women/ency ... -1906-1978

Here is a diagram of the remains of the wall (mud brink wall shown in red).

Excavations at the outer (lower) fortification wall by the three major expeditions to Jericho. At the north end (numbers 1-5), a portion of the mud brick wall (red) atop the stone retaining wall survived, demonstrating that the city wall did not fall in this area. Nothing remains of the mud brick city wall at other points investigated, showing that it had collapsed everywhere else (numbers 6-13).
- Remnants of the collapsed city wall (red) were actually found still in place in three places at Jericho: number 11 (German excavation), number 12 (Kenyon's excavation), and the 1997 Italian-Palestinian excavation extending Kenyon's south trench at number 8.

https://biblearchaeology.org/research/c ... of-jericho

The entire wall had fallen except for a small section on the northern end. This most likely was where Rahab lived.

Josh 2:15 (ESV)
Then she let them down by a rope through the window, for her house was built into the city wall, so that she lived in the wall.

They were commanded not to take anything for themselves from Jericho.

Josh 6:17 (ESV)
And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the LORD for destruction.

And it was discovered in the burn layer jars full of grain. And as far as I can tell, this is the first time anyone has discovered jars full of grain in any burn layer in any excavated city.

Both John Garstang, who excavated at Jericho in the 1930’s and Kathleen Kenyon, who excavated there in the 1950’s found storage jars filled with burnt grain. In fact, Kenyon found over six bushels of grain in one season alone.

https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2019 ... t-jericho/

The jars were full of grain because it was the harvest season and it was in preparation for a long siege.

"With a plentiful food supply and ample water, the inhabitants of Jericho could have held out for several years."
https://www.tesocollegealoet.sc.ug/news ... f-jericho/

Since the siege was only seven days, the grain jars would've been full.

[otseng]

After the destruction by fire at Jericho, the city was uninhabited for a long period of time.

"Tell es-Sultan remained unoccupied from the end of the 15th to the 10th-9th centuries BCE, when the city was rebuilt."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_es-Sultan

After its destruction by the Israelites it was, according to the biblical account, abandoned until Hiel the Bethelite established himself there in the 9th century BC (1 Kings 16:34).

https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/a ... in-history

Josh 6:26 (KJV)
26 And Joshua adjured [them] at that time, saying, Cursed [be] the man before the LORD, that riseth up and buildeth this city Jericho: he shall lay the foundation thereof in his firstborn, and in his youngest [son] shall he set up the gates of it.

During the reign of Ahab, Jericho was rebuilt by Hiel. And his sons died while building the foundations and gates.

1Kgs 16:34 (NET)
34 During Ahab’s reign, Hiel the Bethelite rebuilt Jericho. Abiram, his firstborn son, died when he laid the foundation; Segub, his youngest son, died when he erected its gates, in keeping with the Lord’s message that he had spoken through Joshua son of Nun.

The existence of Ahab is historically supported outside the Bible. Shalmaneser III of Assyria documented in 853 BC that he defeated an alliance of a dozen kings in the Battle of Qarqar; one of these was Ahab. He is also mentioned on the inscriptions of the Mesha Stele.

Ahab became king of Israel in the thirty-eighth year of King Asa of Judah, and reigned for twenty-two years, according to 1 Kings.[1 Kings 16:29] William F. Albright dated his reign to 869–850 BC, while Edwin R. Thiele offered the dates 874–853 BC.[2] Most recently, Michael Coogan has dated Ahab's reign to 871–852 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahab

So, the Biblical account of the rebuilding of Jericho aligns with archaeology and historical records and the early date of the Exodus.

[otseng]

Recreation of the Khirbet el-Maqatir fortress
https://biblearchaeology.org/current-ev ... us-ephraim

After the destruction of Jericho, the next city they attacked was Ai.

Josh 7:2-5 (NIV)
2 Now Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai, which is near Beth Aven to the east of Bethel, and told them, “Go up and spy out the region.” So the men went up and spied out Ai. 3 When they returned to Joshua, they said, “Not all the army will have to go up against Ai. Send two or three thousand men to take it and do not weary the whole army, for only a few people live there.” 4 So about three thousand went up; but they were routed by the men of Ai, 5 who killed about thirty-six of them. They chased the Israelites from the city gate as far as the stone quarries and struck them down on the slopes. At this the hearts of the people melted in fear and became like water.

Most likely, Ai is at present day Khirbet el-Maqatir, which is just west of Jericho along the Joppa-Amman road.


https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2019 ... -sites-ai/

Based on its strategic location and archaeological findings there, Khirbet el-Maqatir appears to have been a northern border fortress for the Jerusalem city-state at the time of the Conquest.

https://biblearchaeology.org/current-ev ... us-ephraim

The location matches the geographic description of the Bible.

Joshua 7 says it was near Beth Aven and east of Bethel.

Josh 7:2 (KJV)
2 And Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai, which [is] beside Beth-aven, on the east side of Bethel, and spoke unto them, saying, Go up and view the country. And the men went up and viewed Ai.

Have an ambush site on the west side of Ai.

Josh 8:9 (KJV)
9 Joshua therefore sent them forth: and they went to lie in ambush, and abode between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of Ai: but Joshua lodged that night among the people.

Have a valley north of Ai.

Josh 8:11 (KJV)
And all the people, [even the people] of war that [were] with him, went up, and drew nigh, and came before the city, and pitched on the north side of Ai: now [there was] a valley between them and Ai.

If Kh. el-Maqatir were to prove to be Ai archaeologically, its location fits the biblical record well. The deep Wadi Sheban to the west provides a perfect location for the ambush forces of the Israelites to hide. Joshua’s command post was on the hill just east (left) of the modern road and he fled east away from the wadi allowing the ambush force to attack from behind.

Aerial view from north:


https://www.bibleplaces.com/maqatir/

It should be a relatively small city.

Josh 7:3 (KJV)
And they returned to Joshua, and said unto him, Let not all the people go up; but let about two or three thousand men go up and smite Ai; [and] make not all the people to labor thither; for they [are but] few.

Excavations at Khirbet el-Maqatir have revealed a small border fortress dating to the Middle and Late Bronze Ages. Although only about 2.5 acres in size the foundation of the fortification walls on the north and west side were found to be 13 feet wide. On the north side of the fortress, a four-chambered gate was unearthed.

https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2019 ... -sites-ai/

It was burned by fire.

Josh 8:8 When you have taken the city, set it on fire. Do what the LORD has commanded. See to it; you have my orders.”

Excavations at Khirbet el-Maqatir revealed ample pottery dating to the Late Bronze Age I, much of which had been refired in a site-wide conflagration.

https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2019 ... -sites-ai/

Artifacts found conform to the early date of the Exodus.

Three Egyptian scarabs were found at the site, including two from the period of the fortress: one dating to the the Middle Bronze III period (ca. 1650–1485 B.C.) and another rarer scarab dating to the 18th Dynasty, likely in the reign of Amenhotep II (ca. 1455-1418 B.C.).

https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2019 ... -sites-ai/

Whereas in Jericho they could not take any plunder, at Ai they could.

Josh 8:1-2 (NIV)
1 Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged. Take the whole army with you, and go up and attack Ai. For I have delivered into your hands the king of Ai, his people, his city and his land.
2 You shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king, except that you may carry off their plunder and livestock for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city.”

No jars of grain have been found unlike Jericho.

It was made a permanent heap of ruins.

Josh 8:28 (NIV)
28 So Joshua burned Ai and made it a permanent heap of ruins, a desolate place to this day.

Following the destruction of the Late Bronze I fortress it was abandoned and left exposed to the elements, later scavengers and the farmer’s plow. Much of the eastern half of the Late Bronze I fortress was robbed out by the later Hasmonean builders. The western half was similarly robbed out when the Byzantine church and monastery was constructed on the summit of the hill 220 yds to the northwest. Subsequent to the Byzantine period there has been additional looting of the site. The foundation of the west half of the gate and remnants of the fortress, however, have survived. These sparse remains are visible on the surface or can be found just below the surface.

https://biblearchaeology.org/current-ev ... us-ephraim

One thing that was built nearby was an ancient Byzantine monastery, as possibly a memorial to Ai.

While a church at Khirbet el-Maqatir north of Jerusalem has long been identified, only recently did it become known that the site included a full monastery.

https://www.galaxie.com/article/bspade12-3-05

Byzantine monks built a large monastery on the site in the 4th c. A.D. that may help in the identification of this site as Ai. The earliest reports by Edward Robinson in 1838 show that the local peoples thought Kh. el-Maqatir was Ai and it is possible that this church preserved the memory of this identification.

https://www.bibleplaces.com/maqatir/

[pjharrison57]

[Replying to otseng in post #1]

Give me an example of error in the bible?

[otseng]

Give me an example of error in the bible?

This thread assumes the Bible has errors. To debate if the Bible has errors, please go to On the Bible being inerrant.

[The Nice Centurion]

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:

How can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?

The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.

For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

By choosing to believe it is.
People can believe anything they want, no matter of the facts or lack of.
What to believe a seven headed, purple platypus lives at the core of the flat earth, and pays for baby teeth given to him by angels with gold pressed latinum on the seventeenth Thursday of every week, but only during Leap Years that end with an odd digit?
Good news:
You can!
Just ignore all the ignorant things stated above that you know are wrong, find a couple random verses of some text somewhere that you convince yourself applies, then have at it!
It's really very simple.

You are right, but I have to add that the average christian will never admit to have just chosen to believe.

Instead they will try to argue that they came to believe either through logical reasoning, or private holy revelation which they cant explain to unbelievers.

Cognitive Dissonance at its best!

[Bust Nak]

Cognitive Dissonance at its best!

Moderator Comment

No personal comment please.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[TRANSPONDER]

Well, there we are. We have to choose our battles and countering masses of essentially pointless Bible propaganda is a waste of my time, as well as risking getting 'personal'. What are we to say to the miles of stuff about Jericho other than 'Archaeology indicates it wasn't even inhabited around the conquest'. If that's so, everything that was posted here about it is a waste of everyone's time.

(Wiki)Iron Age
Tell es-Sultan remained unoccupied from the end of the 15th to the 10th–9th centuries BCE, when the city was rebuilt.[41][40][42] Of this new city not much more remains than a four-room house on the eastern slope.[43] By the 7th century, Jericho had become an extensive town, but this settlement was destroyed in the Babylonian conquest of Judah in the late 6th century.[41]