Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

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Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #1

Post by POI »

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #81

Post by POI »

tam wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:01 pm Peace to you,
brunumb wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:48 am
tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:40 pm If one is a Christian (truly), then one is a member of His Body (which is His Church, His Bride)... and so, one is in Christ.

Were you asking for more than that?
Why use the term "if one is in Christ" if it is just the same as saying "if one is a Christian"? Not sure what the modifier (truly) does.
I could just say Christian. Saying 'in Christ' just explains a bit more, but I did not mean to cause confusion. I'm glad you asked.
How is His Church different from a church-going Christian and what does being His Bride entail?
The Church is not a place... as in... a place that one goes to on Sundays or on religious holidays (or whatever other day people 'go to church'). The Church IS the Body of Christ, made of the people in Him (made of Christians). It is not a denomination or a building. There is no going TO Church (because one IS the Church)... just as there is no leaving Church (unless one were to leave Christ).

Church, Bride, Body <- these are synonyms.


Peace again to you.
Just curious... Are you planning on responding to post #78? If not, why not? If so, I'll be patiently waiting :)
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #82

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

I was not planning on continuing, because there are so many fundamental differences in understanding here (and that can just lead to continuing confusion), but since you have inquired, perhaps we could keep trying...
POI wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:57 am
<grace> = undeserved selection for salvation.
That is not how I would define grace. Grace is not a word that I use often (mercy and love, yes, forgiveness, yes)... but where did you get your definition of grace from?

I looked up synonyms, I looked up definitions, I also looked up the meaning (and interchangeable words) with the word translated into "grace", in the bible (which is where you're getting it from, right?)

Grace is sometimes interchanged with favor, but also carries a meaning of merciful kindness.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... lexResults

My Lord also told Paul "my grace is sufficient for you" meaning Paul was covered by Christ (despite whatever thorn or sin that Paul carried in his flesh, Christ had Paul covered, that sin fore-given).


So perhaps we can continue with something more like that in mind...


tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:56 pm I'm afraid you don't get to decide that. It was my analogy for my point.

Perhaps it is just does not fit with what you personally believe?
If you were to instead present "God's invitation" in parallel with a mafia's boss's presented invitation, I would be more inclined to agree. (i.e.):
Like I said, it just does not fit with what you personally believe. But my analogy was not wrong. You and I simply have a fundamental difference in our understanding of God and of His Son.

To continue with your analogy:
Mafia boss - accept my invitation/offer or you will be sorry.
"God" - accept my invitation/offer or you will be sorry.
See, the mafia boss is making a threat.

God is not making a threat. You're reading that into the situation. Perhaps that is how religion taught you to 'see' it - or maybe you grew up in a familia of mob bosses (j/k) - but that doesn't make this view right.
Both scenarios above support the one offering the invitation (also) determining your outcome.
Except that one is a threat (malevolent) and the mafia boss is going to punish the person who does not accept the "invitation".

The other is a warning to try and keep someone from harm (and/or a simple statement of fact). If you do not accept an invitation to something or someone, you do not reap the benefits that come with that invitation. If you don't drink the water of life (even eternal life), how are you supposed to get that life (even eternal life)?


**

But lets say someone is an atheist, or agnostic, or has been misled - and for whatever reason, did not accept the invitation to drink the 'water of life' during their lifetime. Even then, out of MERCY and LOVE, many non-Christians are invited into the Kingdom and will receive eternal life (drinking from the river of the water of life), on the basis of what they have done for Christ (such as with the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable, the sheep who unknowingly did those things for Christ); people who do the requirements of the law (love) NATURALLY, showing that the requirements of the law are written upon their hearts. Such ones are also invited into the Kingdom and given eternal life.

And of course as Christ said, "Be merciful and mercy will be shown you." "Forgiven and you will be forgiven."


In your example, the one offering the drink does not (also) determine your outcome, -- "nature" does.
All of us were made subject to death before we were even born. Not by God, but by the one who sold us and the rest of the world and life in it (that one is Adam). So all are already dying, and that is also 'nature'.



tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm Second... you are assuming such ones never received an offer?
You can accept God's invitation before birth, at birth, or shortly there-after --- really? One with severe brain damage has the capacity to accept God's invitation --- really?
Yes and yes. Perhaps not on a level that we can understand (an intellectual level), but the spirit of the person might cry out 'yes'.
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm Third... I am not the judge. None of those things you mention prevent someone from receiving eternal life (and God can know someone even before they are born), but I don't know that this means a 'free pass' is granted. Even the very young (or brain-damaged) can reveal who they are in some way. We might not be able to tell, but that does not mean God cannot tell.
Then if god already knows exactly where they are going to end up, before they are even conceived, then just send each individual where they are going to go before they are born. Having many make a pit-stop, in the flesh first here on earth, is just a waste of God's time, as He watches the inevitable.
Okay, stop right there, lol. You have added more to what I said, than what I actually said. I didn't say anything - one way or the other - about knowing where some or all are going to end up.

That being said, there are a lot of things going on, including training that is needed (if one is in Christ), love that is begotten (from us) by the love that God has given us first... wisdom to learn to choose the right and reject the wrong. To name a few. Sometimes the journey is more profitable than the destination.

tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm If grace is offering a gift to someone who did not earn it, how would accepting that gift nullify the grace that offered it to begin with?
I already answered this more than once.


Please re-read the question and answer as is.
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm A non-Christian can enter into the Kingdom and receive eternal life, yes. The sheep (and goats) in this parable are non-believers. The sheep are invited in on the basis of what they did (unknowingly) for Christ.
Then the question AGAIN is, salvation is achieved by?

A) Grace alone
B) Conditional grace by faith/belief alone
C) Conditional grace by works alone
D) Conditional grace by faith/belief and works
E) Other
But I answered this question in the previous post. You copied part of that answer in this last quote, but you left out the rest:

I didn't realize you were asking if ONLY grace was involved.
I think they are connected, especially where faith is a gift. So that it begins with grace, then faith (and from faith comes works)
.


If there is a need to continue, perhaps it would be wise to define what you mean by salvation?


Peace again to you.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #83

Post by TRANSPONDER »

This debate is always a difficult one as the 'dictator -analogy' is going to be hovering in the wings. Perhaps it would throw some light on it Not being as kind and merciful as the God -apologists would like to persuade us because some apologogists have had to bite the bullet in the end in the face of frank dictatorial injustice on the part of this postulated god and say 'God can do what he wants'; 'God made us, He can destroy us'; we are all sinners, we deserve whatever God does to us'. They know it isn't justice and mercy, so they can only say (effectively) that He is a violent dictator, and you'd better do what he says, and love him, like a dictator, or pretend you do, anyway.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #84

Post by POI »

tam wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:44 pm I was not planning on continuing, because there are so many fundamental differences in understanding here (and that can just lead to continuing confusion), but since you have inquired, perhaps we could keep trying...
Our fundamental differences will not matter, as you will soon see below. Regardless of the view you hold, you will contradict yourself, as you will see...
tam wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:44 pm That is not how I would define grace. Grace is not a word that I use often (mercy and love, yes, forgiveness, yes)... but where did you get your definition of grace from?

I looked up synonyms, I looked up definitions, I also looked up the meaning (and interchangeable words) with the word translated into "grace", in the bible (which is where you're getting it from, right?)

Grace is sometimes interchanged with favor, but also carries a meaning of merciful kindness.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... lexResults

My Lord also told Paul "my grace is sufficient for you" meaning Paul was covered by Christ (despite whatever thorn or sin that Paul carried in his flesh, Christ had Paul covered, that sin fore-given).
My definition of grace is simple....

grace - "grace, in Christian theology, the spontaneous, unmerited gift of the divine favour in the salvation of sinners" - google
unmerited - "not deserved or merited" - google.com

Hence, you have ---> true grace (vs) conditional grace

true grace = everyone goes since no one is apparently worthy

conditional grace = God selects you based upon certain mandatory criteria

1. It looks as if you have opted for the later --> (conditional grace). Thus, the question(s) then becomes, what are these mandatory condition(s)?

2. In response to the bit about Paul above, is/was Paul saved in the same way every other person is saved? Please explain?

(YOU) God is not making a threat. You're reading that into the situation. Perhaps that is how religion taught you to 'see' it - or maybe you grew up in a familia of mob bosses (j/k) - but that doesn't make this view right.

(ME) I'm afraid He does make an objective threat, in (Mark 16:15-16):

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Up above, do this/that and you will be saved. Do not do this/that and you will be condemned. Like a mafia boss, God decides both what you must do, and also what will happen to you if you do not do what you must do.

So I ask anew... Is belief (and/or) baptism mandatory, or not? Based upon your prior answer, via (Matthew 25) -- sheep/goats, it's not mandatory. --- Which raises direct contradiction to (Mark 16).

(YOU) But lets say someone is an atheist, or agnostic, or has been misled - and for whatever reason, did not accept the invitation to drink the 'water of life' during their lifetime. Even then, out of MERCY and LOVE, many non-Christians are invited into the Kingdom and will receive eternal life (drinking from the river of the water of life), on the basis of what they have done for Christ (such as with the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable, the sheep who unknowingly did those things for Christ); people who do the requirements of the law (love) NATURALLY, showing that the requirements of the law are written upon their hearts. Such ones are also invited into the Kingdom and given eternal life.

And of course as Christ said, "Be merciful and mercy will be shown you." "Forgiven and you will be forgiven."

(ME) If someone has preached the Gospel to me, and I reject such preaching -- (due to disbelief/denial/other), according to Mark 16, I'm condemned. BUT, according to Matthew 25, I'm instead judged based upon my <works>?

(YOU) All of us were made subject to death before we were even born. Not by God, but by the one who sold us and the rest of the world and life in it (that one is Adam). So all are already dying, and that is also 'nature'.

(ME) Then my last response still stands. God is the one who offers what He offers in Mark 16:15-16. (Believe/other) or be condemned. So before we even try to decipher if thirst was a "thing" before Adam/Eve were tempted, we might first want to determine IF belief IS truly a requirement for salvation, or not?

(YOU) Yes and yes. Perhaps not on a level that we can understand (an intellectual level), but the spirit of the person might cry out 'yes'.

(ME) Prove it. If you cannot, then your response is likely nothing more than wishful thinking -- to try and keep the Bible consistent for yourself.

But regardless, you still need to reconcile (Mark 16:15-16) with (Matthew 25:31-46)?

(YOU) Then if god already knows exactly where they are going to end up, before they are even conceived, then just send each individual where they are going to go before they are born. Having many make a pit-stop, in the flesh first here on earth, is just a waste of God's time, as He watches the inevitable. [/quote]

Okay, stop right there, lol. You have added more to what I said, than what I actually said. I didn't say anything - one way or the other - about knowing where some or all are going to end up.

That being said, there are a lot of things going on, including training that is needed (if one is in Christ), love that is begotten (from us) by the love that God has given us first... wisdom to learn to choose the right and reject the wrong. To name a few. Sometimes the journey is more profitable than the destination.

(ME) Well, is God omniscient or not? If He is, then He is merely watching "re-runs". The entirety of everything is already known to God. He is a voyeur, as He watches all forgone conclusions before they ever happen. And maybe, He intervenes in some of it, and not others? Which begs the question, why intervene sometimes, and not others? Which then raises yet another question... Is God also benevolent? If so, how so?

If He is not omniscient, then what other shortcoming(s) does God possess? Maybe your god has a God(s)?

Here is the summation, thus far. Please pick one, or more:

A) Grace alone - Everyone goes to Heaven which renders the Bible meaningless really.

B) Conditional grace by faith/belief alone - Mark 16:15-16. Which means if someone has proselytized to you, and you accept, you are golden. So maybe do not proselytize to anyone, so they are not given the chance to reject the preaching?

C) Conditional grace by works alone - Matthew 25:31-46. Which means belief is not a requirement, even if you have received preaching from a Christian?

D) Conditional grace by faith/belief and works - ??????

E) Other - ???????

(YOU) perhaps it would be wise to define what you mean by salvation?

(ME) This is not necessary. It can mean whatever you want it to mean, and it will not affect this topic.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #85

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
POI wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:21 pm
tam wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:44 pm I was not planning on continuing, because there are so many fundamental differences in understanding here (and that can just lead to continuing confusion), but since you have inquired, perhaps we could keep trying...
Our fundamental differences will not matter, as you will soon see below. Regardless of the view you hold, you will contradict yourself, as you will see...
I read through the post, but I don't see where I contradicted myself.

Our fundamental differences do matter. At the end of your post, you said the definition of salvation does not matter. I don't think that is correct. But we will see...
tam wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:44 pm That is not how I would define grace. Grace is not a word that I use often (mercy and love, yes, forgiveness, yes)... but where did you get your definition of grace from?

I looked up synonyms, I looked up definitions, I also looked up the meaning (and interchangeable words) with the word translated into "grace", in the bible (which is where you're getting it from, right?)

Grace is sometimes interchanged with favor, but also carries a meaning of merciful kindness.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... lexResults

My Lord also told Paul "my grace is sufficient for you" meaning Paul was covered by Christ (despite whatever thorn or sin that Paul carried in his flesh, Christ had Paul covered, that sin fore-given).
My definition of grace is simple....
Okay... but does that mean you disagree with the above?
grace - "grace, in Christian theology, the spontaneous, unmerited gift of the divine favour in the salvation of sinners" - google
unmerited - "not deserved or merited" - google.com

Hence, you have ---> true grace (vs) conditional grace
I am not sure why you said 'hence', since you appear to be adding an unwarranted caveat (that 'true grace' must be unconditional). And this is a caveat that is not even mentioned in the OP.

Grace is grace.

Just as love can be conditional or unconditional, but either way, it is love.
true grace = everyone goes since no one is apparently worthy
If your definition of 'true grace' means that everyone goes to heaven (no matter what), then there is no such thing (as per your definition).
conditional grace = God selects you based upon certain mandatory criteria

1. It looks as if you have opted for the later --> (conditional grace). Thus, the question(s) then becomes, what are these mandatory condition(s)?
I'm pretty sure at least some of those conditions have been mentioned in our discussion (and perhaps also throughout the thread, though I have not read the entire thread).

- To listen to the Son (and so obey His commands), love Him (the one who loves Him will remain in HIS word and keep HIS commands), follow Him, have faith in Him. Faith compels (and so includes) works.


***

That being said, out of God's MERCY and LOVE, there are also non-Christians who are invited into the Kingdom and given eternal life on the basis of how they (unknowingly) treated His Son; on the basis of the love that is shown to be upon their hearts, shown to be on their hearts because they do NATURALLY the requirements of that law (that law being love). And love covers over a multitude of sins (1Peter 4:8; Proverbs 10:12).

And of course as Christ said, "Be merciful and mercy will be shown you." "Forgiven and you will be forgiven." Though He also said, "Judge not, or you will be judged."


2. In response to the bit about Paul above, is/was Paul saved in the same way every other person is saved? Please explain?
In the same way that every other Christian is saved, yes.

(YOU) God is not making a threat. You're reading that into the situation. Perhaps that is how religion taught you to 'see' it - or maybe you grew up in a familia of mob bosses (j/k) - but that doesn't make this view right.

(ME) I'm afraid He does make an objective threat, in (Mark 16:15-16):
In the context of my analogy, "drink this water or you will die"... was indeed a matter of instructing someone to do what is needed in order for them to live. You must drink the water of life (holy spirit, that Christ gives), in order to have life in you, even eternal life.
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Like I said earlier, a person (all people) are or were already subject to death (condemned). There is a verse in John that speaks to this (following one of the most popular verses perhaps, even if not understood):

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.


The verse LITERALLY says that God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world (following the verse that God sent His Son into the world so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life).


So that condemnation (subjection to Death/death) is the default position (that Adam caused). God has provided a way for one to instead have life, even eternal life, and that life is in His Son.

If the Mark verse means something different, then I don't know it. But I do know that non-Christians can also be invited into the Kingdom and receive eternal life. I'm pretty sure I put a link to a post that reasons through this, in my original response on this thread. If not:

viewtopic.php?p=731804#p731804

**

And there is STILL mercy that God shows (the very thing that God desires from us as well). So that even people who did not know or believe in His Son may also have life, even eternal life (I mean, they certainly won't be atheist or agnostic any longer, because they will see Him and His Kingdom with their own eyes). And yes, there are conditions attached to that as well - but that does not mean mercy is no longer mercy.

"Be merciful, and you will be shown mercy."

That is a condition, but it does not mean that you are not being shown mercy as well.

(In actuality, you are choosing the measure by which you are treated. Christ even says this: "By the measure you use to judge others, it will be used against you." Don't forgive others? Don't expect to be forgiven. Do judge others? You will also be judged.)

AS WELL... love covers over a multitude of sins, and there is no law against love. Meaning you can always show mercy (which comes from love) instead of 'sacrifice'. Just as Christ did, when He saved the woman caught in the act of adultery, from being stoned. He showed mercy, forgave her, and saved her life (even her eternal life) - even though the written law said to stone her (though there seems to be some contradiction in that, perhaps due to the erring pen of the scribes Jeremiah 8:8).


So I ask anew... Is belief (and/or) baptism mandatory, or not? Based upon your prior answer, via (Matthew 25) -- sheep/goats, it's not mandatory. --- Which raises direct contradiction to (Mark 16).
You're asking questions about two different groups of people.

Belief (well, faith) and the baptism (of holy spirit, the water of Life) is part of being Christian (Christians are covered by Christ, reign with Him in His Kingdom for at least a thousand years, have no fear of the second death, are not judged).

Matt 25 (the sheep, from the sheep and goats parable) is more about non-Christians, who are still shown mercy, based on their actions (as depicted in that parable).


There is no real fault to be found in any of the above (though I am sure some will find a complaint). There is mercy. There is love. There is justice. There is wisdom.

(YOU) Yes and yes. Perhaps not on a level that we can understand (an intellectual level), but the spirit of the person might cry out 'yes'.

(ME) Prove it. If you cannot, then your response is likely nothing more than wishful thinking -- to try and keep the Bible consistent for yourself.
I don't know what you are asking for in the way of proof, but the bible that you appear to be looking at for at least some of your information states clearly that every living breathing thing is capable of praising God.

Psalm 150:6, Psalm 145: 21; Psalm 148:7

Not every living and breathing creature 'speaks' (as man speaks) or thinks 'intellectually', but they may all still given praise. Plants, animals, humans, seraphs/angels. Every living and breathing thing.


But regardless, you still need to reconcile (Mark 16:15-16) with (Matthew 25:31-46)?
I don't NEED to, but I think they are reconciled as explained above.


(I am clipping the omniscient stuff out because that is another topic, and we have enough on our plate with just this one)



Peace again to you, and to you all.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #86

Post by POI »

The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate that to be a Christian, you must compromise your logic to adhere to what the Bible states about being 'saved', or reaching 'salvation'. And by this, I simply mean (whether or not) God/Jesus <selects/elects/picks/other> you to enter into His "Kingdom".

To slim things down, is His selection process based upon:

A) Unconditional grace, which means He died for our sins and we all go -- since we are all sinners until we die anyways.
B) Conditional grace, or He picks based upon some criteria, which is based upon belief/trust/faith/etc alone
C) Conditional grace, or He picks based upon some criteria, which is based upon your works alone
D) Conditional grace, or He picks based upon some criteria, which is based upon both belief and works

Seems as though you are somewhere in the neighborhood of B), C), and/or D)???

You will find, that regardless of what position you adhere to, you will wrestle with conflict(s). I will demonstrate below. This is why I state "it does not matter", at times :)

(YOU) That being said, out of God's MERCY and LOVE, there are also non-Christians who are invited into the Kingdom and given eternal life on the basis of how they (unknowingly) treated His Son

(ME) So we can then ignore Mark 16:15-16?

(YOU) In the context of my analogy, "drink this water or you will die"... was indeed a matter of instructing someone to do what is needed in order for them to live. You must drink the water of life (holy spirit, that Christ gives), in order to have life in you, even eternal life.

(ME) Mark 16:15-16 tells the Christian reader to proselytize. The recipients that conform to the presented offer will be saved from condemnation/death/other, and the ones that don't will be condemned to death/other. What is to become of the ones who do not know about Christ? Are they automatically saved or "condemned"? Your analogy also fails because dehydration kills everyone. In the Bible, you make suggestions that the ones (offered/not offered) may have other means, beside belief, to live forever --- (works/other?). In your analogy the only way not to die is to accept "fluids". In your analogy for 'salvation', "belief" may not be required. Thus, in your analogy, "fluids" cannot be compared to "belief".

The second you state they are judged, using a differing criteria other than belief/baptism, you then raise more questions than answers ;)

Which goes right back to the question directly above (i.e.):

So we can then ignore Mark 16:15-16?

(YOU) And there is STILL mercy that God shows (the very thing that God desires from us as well). So that even people who did not know or believe in His Son may also have life, even eternal life (I mean, they certainly won't be atheist or agnostic any longer, because they will see Him and His Kingdom with their own eyes). And yes, there are conditions attached to that as well - but that does not mean mercy is no longer mercy.

"Be merciful, and you will be shown mercy."

That is a condition, but it does not mean that you are not being shown mercy as well.

(In actuality, you are choosing the measure by which you are treated. Christ even says this: "By the measure you use to judge others, it will be used against you." Don't forgive others? Don't expect to be forgiven. Do judge others? You will also be judged.)

AS WELL... love covers over a multitude of sins, and there is no law against love. Meaning you can always show mercy (which comes from love) instead of 'sacrifice'. Just as Christ did, when He saved the woman caught in the act of adultery, from being stoned. He showed mercy, forgave her, and saved her life (even her eternal life) - even though the written law said to stone her (though there seems to be some contradiction in that, perhaps due to the erring pen of the scribes Jeremiah 8:8).

(ME) The question remains, who does God (rescue / apply mercy / apply 'grace'), and who does He not rescue from 'condemnation'? What criteria does He use? A), B), C), D)?

(YOU) You're asking questions about two different groups of people.

Belief (well, faith) and the baptism (of holy spirit, the water of Life) is part of being Christian (Christians are covered by Christ, reign with Him in His Kingdom for at least a thousand years, have no fear of the second death, are not judged).

Matt 25 (the sheep, from the sheep and goats parable) is more about non-Christians, who are still shown mercy, based on their actions (as depicted in that parable).

There is no real fault to be found in any of the above (though I am sure some will find a complaint). There is mercy. There is love. There is justice. There is wisdom.

(ME) Yes, there is fault(s) to be found.

1. Are you to be a believer in Christ or not? If not, then don't instruct that you need to be a believer... (Romans 10)
2. If I reject a proselytizer, via Mark 16:15-16, is that okay, as long as I instead do approved works? If so, why no caveat(s) given in (Mark 16)?
3. A 3 week old dead fetus performs no works, for which God might judge, via (Matthew 25:31:46).

(YOU) Not every living and breathing creature 'speaks' (as man speaks) or thinks 'intellectually', but they may all still given praise. Plants, animals, humans, seraphs/angels. Every living and breathing thing.

(ME) The Bible wants you to praise Christ. Do stillborns, animals, and plants know about Christ, or even a 'god' for that matter? If so, prove it.

Your rationale is quickly unraveling. Are you required to believe or not? If not, how does a dead young fetus perform the necessary works, as laid out in (Matthew 25:35-36)?
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #87

Post by POI »

Progress update:

Post #11 JW states "the Bible translates itself". (My last response) - Great. Then the answer should be direct and simple, provided one is literate. Is the answer A), B), C), D), or E); and why?

Post #27. Eloi states "I have no time to answer all your questions". (My last response) - This is when I merely asked direct follow up questions to his response (i.e.):

1. Is baptism required? (yes or no)
2. By default, at birth or before natural birth, are humans deemed "righteous" or "unrighteous"? (righteous or unrighteous)
3. Must a person be free from all the said above to achieve salvation? (yes or no)

He apparently, all of a sudden, "has no time" to answer 3 (one-word-answer) questions? Which begs the question... But he has time to answer others in this thread there-after?.?.?.?

Post #49. Bjs1 alludes to 'morals' being irrelevant to salvation. My follow up question remains:

If everyone, for which He selects is undeserving of His selection, and the elected are the ones which will accept it, does this mean 'morals' are irrelevant?

Post #85. Tam states that all are deemed "condemned", and Jesus is here to save some of us. The question remains... What (criteria or selection process) does God/Jesus use in deciding who He elects/picks/favors? Is it based upon your <beliefs>, your <works>, other? Seems as though the Bible reader needs to ignore some Verse(s) in the Bible, to instead favor others?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #88

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
POI wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:53 pm The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate that to be a Christian, you must compromise your logic to adhere to what the Bible states about being 'saved', or reaching 'salvation'. And by this, I simply mean (whether or not) God/Jesus <selects/elects/picks/other> you to enter into His "Kingdom".
Then this thread appears to be failing to live up to its purpose. For one, this thread must invent and apply unwarranted caveats... aka... 'true grace' must be unconditional and universal. That is not even biblical.

Grace is grace. Just as love is love. Love that has conditions is still love. Just as grace that has conditions is still grace.

If your entire argument for your 'purpose' rests upon something that is not even true, then what does that say?
Seems as though you are somewhere in the neighborhood of B), C), and/or D)???
I already said, and repeated, that all three (grace, faith, works) are involved. Of course if a person never gets the change TO perform a 'work', then a 'work' would not be required. Though even praise would be considered a work.

God may also have mercy upon whomever He chooses. He does not do anything that is not from love.
You will find, that regardless of what position you adhere to, you will wrestle with conflict(s).
I am not wrestling with a conflict.
(YOU) That being said, out of God's MERCY and LOVE, there are also non-Christians who are invited into the Kingdom and given eternal life on the basis of how they (unknowingly) treated His Son

(ME) So we can then ignore Mark 16:15-16?
I don't need to ignore it (as explained in the previous post), but I would not put it above all the rest of the evidence - from what is written (as explained in previous posts and on that link that I expect you did not read), from love, and also from my Lord.

You are free to do as you choose, of course.
(YOU) In the context of my analogy, "drink this water or you will die"... was indeed a matter of instructing someone to do what is needed in order for them to live. You must drink the water of life (holy spirit, that Christ gives), in order to have life in you, even eternal life.

(ME) Mark 16:15-16 tells the Christian reader to proselytize. The recipients that conform to the presented offer will be saved from condemnation/death/other, and the ones that don't will be condemned to death/other. What is to become of the ones who do not know about Christ? Are they automatically saved or "condemned"?


Questions like this make me question whether or not you even read my post. I responded to this in the previous posts, as well as on that link I posted, more than once.
Your analogy also fails because dehydration kills everyone. In the Bible, you make suggestions that the ones (offered/not offered) may have other means, beside belief, to live forever --- (works/other?). In your analogy the only way not to die is to accept "fluids". In your analogy for 'salvation', "belief" may not be required. Thus, in your analogy, "fluids" cannot be compared to "belief".
Sorry, but you have made that comparison on your own. I did not liken the 'water of life' to belief.

The water of life is holy spirit.

We need to drink this water (that Christ gives) in order to live forever.

Just as the flesh requires physical physical water for it to live.


(YOU) And there is STILL mercy that God shows (the very thing that God desires from us as well). So that even people who did not know or believe in His Son may also have life, even eternal life (I mean, they certainly won't be atheist or agnostic any longer, because they will see Him and His Kingdom with their own eyes). And yes, there are conditions attached to that as well - but that does not mean mercy is no longer mercy.

"Be merciful, and you will be shown mercy."

That is a condition, but it does not mean that you are not being shown mercy as well.

(In actuality, you are choosing the measure by which you are treated. Christ even says this: "By the measure you use to judge others, it will be used against you." Don't forgive others? Don't expect to be forgiven. Do judge others? You will also be judged.)

AS WELL... love covers over a multitude of sins, and there is no law against love. Meaning you can always show mercy (which comes from love) instead of 'sacrifice'. Just as Christ did, when He saved the woman caught in the act of adultery, from being stoned. He showed mercy, forgave her, and saved her life (even her eternal life) - even though the written law said to stone her (though there seems to be some contradiction in that, perhaps due to the erring pen of the scribes Jeremiah 8:8).

(ME) The question remains, who does God (rescue / apply mercy / apply 'grace'), and who does He not rescue from 'condemnation'? What criteria does He use? A), B), C), D)?
These questions have been answered.
(YOU) You're asking questions about two different groups of people.

Belief (well, faith) and the baptism (of holy spirit, the water of Life) is part of being Christian (Christians are covered by Christ, reign with Him in His Kingdom for at least a thousand years, have no fear of the second death, are not judged).

Matt 25 (the sheep, from the sheep and goats parable) is more about non-Christians, who are still shown mercy, based on their actions (as depicted in that parable).

There is no real fault to be found in any of the above (though I am sure some will find a complaint). There is mercy. There is love. There is justice. There is wisdom.

(ME) Yes, there is fault(s) to be found.
There is no fault to be found.

Or did you just mean that there are things you don't understand? If so, then perhaps click on that link.
(YOU) Not every living and breathing creature 'speaks' (as man speaks) or thinks 'intellectually', but they may all still given praise. Plants, animals, humans, seraphs/angels. Every living and breathing thing.

(ME) The Bible wants you to praise Christ. Do stillborns, animals, and plants know about Christ, or even a 'god' for that matter? If so, prove it.


A - The bible doesn't want anything. It is a book. It is not a living thing; therefore, it has no wants.

B - Yes, any living, breathing thing can know God and His Son. You saying 'prove it' is just a cop out. If the book YOU are relying upon for your 'argument' is supposedly good enough for your argument, then it should also be good enough for what I said.



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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #89

Post by POI »

(YOU)

A.Then this thread appears to be failing to live up to its purpose. For one, this thread must invent and apply unwarranted caveats... aka... 'true grace' must be unconditional and universal. That is not even biblical.

B. Grace is grace. Just as love is love. Love that has conditions is still love. Just as grace that has conditions is still grace.

C. If your entire argument for your 'purpose' rests upon something that is not even true, then what does that say?

(ME)

A. Quite the contrary. This thread exposes, as a Christian, how you must break your own logic to "resolve" the riddle of 'salvation'. And it will continue to be exposed in this exchange.

B. True grace means all receive salvation. Conditional grace means certain criteria must be met. True love means you love someone no matter what. Conditional love means certain criteria must be met.

C. This thread is created for the sole purpose to demonstrate that regardless of how you translate the Bible, logic works against itself, as it relates to (achieving salvation).

(YOU) I already said, and repeated, that all three (grace, faith, works) are involved. Of course if a person never gets the change TO perform a 'work', then a 'work' would not be required. Though even praise would be considered a work.

(ME) Again, a 3-week-old dead fetus can neither apply faith or works; as it relates to Romans 10 or Matthew 25.

(YOU) God may also have mercy upon whomever He chooses.

(ME) Then the answer should be that ALL receive 'grace'. Meaning, true grace, right?

(YOU) I am not wrestling with a conflict.

(ME) You are either in denial, or, you do not genuinely see the conflict(s) presented.

(YOU) I don't need to ignore it

(ME) But you did ignore it. The Verse is quite simple. Believe or be condemned. At the very least, this applies to the ones receiving the message. Thus, for the ones receiving preaching, is this just a suggestion, or a rule?

(YOU) In the context of my analogy, "drink this water or you will die"... was indeed a matter of instructing someone to do what is needed in order for them to live. You must drink the water of life (holy spirit, that Christ gives), in order to have life in you, even eternal life.

(ME) Mark 16:15-16 tells the Christian reader to proselytize. The recipients that conform to the presented offer will be saved from condemnation/death/other, and the ones that don't will be condemned to death/other. What is to become of the ones who do not know about Christ? Are they automatically saved or "condemned"?

(YOU) We need to drink this water (that Christ gives) in order to live forever. Just as the flesh requires physical physical water for it to live.

(ME) Again, a 3-week-old fetus has no ability to do any of this really. If a 3-week-old fetus has no developed lungs, then it does not breath. So your 3 provided Psalms Verses are out. A 3-week-old fetus cannot do what is required in Matthew 25:35-36 either, so that's out. So, do we then chalk it up to TRUE GRACE? Meaning, a free pass?

(YOU)
A - The bible doesn't want anything. It is a book. It is not a living thing; therefore, it has no wants.

B - Yes, any living, breathing thing can know God and His Son. You saying 'prove it' is just a cop out. If the book YOU are relying upon for your 'argument' is supposedly good enough for your argument, then it should also be good enough for what I said.

(ME)

A. The Bible is said to express what Jesus/God wants.

B. Then there would need NO NEED to request that anyone proselytize, via Mark 16:15-16 :) And BTW, proselytizing to unborn fetuses are likely hardly a thing.

And no, it's not a 'cop out'. It's one thing to ask what the Book even says. It's another thing to ask one to prove what it says. The topic thread was created to try and follow what the Book says. And when you do so, you will find your logic gets twisted. It really only adds insult to injury to then ask to also 'prove' what each claim says :)
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #90

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
POI wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:49 pm (YOU)

A.Then this thread appears to be failing to live up to its purpose. For one, this thread must invent and apply unwarranted caveats... aka... 'true grace' must be unconditional and universal. That is not even biblical.

B. Grace is grace. Just as love is love. Love that has conditions is still love. Just as grace that has conditions is still grace.

C. If your entire argument for your 'purpose' rests upon something that is not even true, then what does that say?

(ME)

A. Quite the contrary. This thread exposes, as a Christian, how you must break your own logic to "resolve" the riddle of 'salvation'. And it will continue to be exposed in this exchange.
Perhaps you could put it into a simple sentence then? You claim I have broken my own logic to resolve the riddle of salvation. So what logic of mine have I broken?
B. True grace means all receive salvation. Conditional grace means certain criteria must be met. True love means you love someone no matter what. Conditional love means certain criteria must be met.
These are POI's personal definitions, but that does not make them true.

Grace is grace. Love is love.

Conditions or no conditions, grace is still grace and love is still love. Just as mercy is still mercy, even if you make it a condition that in order to RECEIVE mercy, you must SHOW mercy.

It is still mercy.

C. This thread is created for the sole purpose to demonstrate that regardless of how you translate the Bible, logic works against itself, as it relates to (achieving salvation).
That sentence does not make sense. Logic works against itself?
(YOU) I already said, and repeated, that all three (grace, faith, works) are involved. Of course if a person never gets the change TO perform a 'work', then a 'work' would not be required. Though even praise would be considered a work.

(ME) Again, a 3-week-old dead fetus can neither apply faith or works; as it relates to Romans 10 or Matthew 25.
Matt 25 pertains to those who are alive when Christ returns, and Romans 11 states that all Israel will be saved (that would include those who did not survive to birth). They just won't all reign as king-priests with Christ in His Kingdom (as the would have if they had accepted Him).

(YOU) God may also have mercy upon whomever He chooses.

(ME) Then the answer should be that ALL receive 'grace'. Meaning, true grace, right?
Why should that be the answer? How does that follow?

(YOU) I am not wrestling with a conflict.

(ME) You are either in denial, or, you do not genuinely see the conflict(s) presented.
Please state this conflict in simple black and white terms then. Why would you not just do that to begin with?
(YOU) I don't need to ignore it

(ME) But you did ignore it.


No, I responded to it. You ignored the response.


(YOU)


B - Yes, any living, breathing thing can know God and His Son. You saying 'prove it' is just a cop out. If the book YOU are relying upon for your 'argument' is supposedly good enough for your argument, then it should also be good enough for what I said.

(ME)

B. Then there would need NO NEED to request that anyone proselytize, via Mark 16:15-16 :)



I'm not sure that follows. I am speaking of a connection between Creator and His creation (plants, animals), and there are those who God would know beforehand (among the elect), even some who may have made a choice before ever being born, to serve Him and His Son. John the baptist recognized Christ from the womb.

But many people are not the greatest at listening in faith, in the spirit (at least not at the start). And many are lost (sheep) - with a lot of wolves in sheep's clothing out there; false shepherds, false teachers, false prophets - muddying the waters, lying to people, deceiving and misleading them (including enemies such as the Adversary who does his best to trip man up, get man to 'curse God and die'). We're just bearing witness to the TRUE Shepherd, that anyone who is thirsting can look to Him and listen to His voice, follow Him, drink from Him. That He IS alive, that His promises ARE true.


Though there is no need to ORDER anyone to bear witness (because who doesn't want to share good news, out of love?) LOVE would also send out an invitation to others - anyone wishing and thirsting - as long as the door is yet open (and it is). Love always hopes.


And no, it's not a 'cop out'. It's one thing to ask what the Book even says. It's another thing to ask one to prove what it says.


Yes, but then there is just no point in this conversation at all, is there? If you resort to 'prove God exists' (which would have to happen before someone could prove that every living breathing thing can praise Him), then there is no point in having a conversation about God to begin with. It is a cop-out. A fail-safe for when something does not go your way in an 'argument' about God.
The topic thread was created to try and follow what the Book says.


A - the OP does not state that. HOWEVER, if that is the case, then you should not be asking me to 'prove it' beyond what is written in that book when it comes to living things praising God.

B - the Bible does not make any mention at all of 'true grace' being unconditional and universal, and yet that is what you have pushed. So you're using an unbiblical concept to claim that the bible contradicts itself on the matter of grace/faith/works. Where is the logic in that?
And when you do so, you will find your logic gets twisted.


What logic has gotten twisted?

The ONLY thing that is in question - the only thing - is what happens to unborn children at the resurrection (and upon what criteria). But that is merely a question (one that I have not inquired about). Since there are indeed exceptions (based on MERCY), merely having something in question is not a flaw in logic at all.

One thing that can be known is that the blood of Christ covers not just the Christian, but his/her entire household (the blood of the lamb protected the entire house in Egypt from the Destroyer); God saves entire households; the promise is for us and for our children. That too is from love.



Peace again to you and to you all.
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